Stubborn pony napping badly for my daughter

And also it is worth reiterating that things do get better when she is worked and ridden more - the question is whether they will get better ENOUGH for my daughter to be getting what she deserves out of the partnership.
 
Lots of people prefer to loan their outgrown ponies , rather than sell on and lose control of where they might end up - Maybe loaning both ways is worth looking into?
 
Possibly, I hadn't thought of that. I wonder if then, she could get Becky back in a couple of years... I did find it hard to find a suitable loan pony for her before though, so I'm not sure it would be so easy to loan one for her...

I was wondering about giving it until the summer and if no improvement (after all we'll be working more, and she improves with more work), then we have to find another pony...
 
book_lover said:
OK no school riding for a bit then except lessons. Will contact instructor and ask if she can do 1 hour private lessons. Would it work to have her school the pony for 30 minutes then have Laura being taught for 30? Would that maybe work?
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I think with a pony that only naps in the school, doing an hour's work in the school is likely to be counter-productive.

Any chance you can send pony to instructor's yard, or another trainer's yard, for a couple of weeks or so, where pony can be trained to obey the forward aids, AND daughter can have lessons as well?

I think you really do need to have an experienced eye assess the combination of pony and daughter to work out where the problem lies - is pony in discomfort (eg saddle, hocks, feet, back, rider's hands, bit etc) or has it learned to take advantage of a less mature rider, or has pony never been properly been trained to be obedient to the leg. If there is no physical discomfort, then pony needs very clear, consistent training to obey the forward aids, which may difficult for a young rider to do on their own. I think if you can have some intensive training with a good trainer for a while it will give you a much clearer idea whether to persevere with this pony or look for a more straightforward schoolmaster. They don't have to be expensive if they are older ponies, and as said above, there are often reliable ponies available for loan. (By the way, when I say 'intensive', I don't mean hours in the school, but consistent, regular sessions).
 
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If the pony is a Welsh D, it's probable that her backing and bringing on was done entirely by adults. It also sounds like before she came to you, she wasn't used to all the traditional aids. Part of the problem could well be that the pony is a bit confused about what is being asked of her and your daughter can't quite reach all the right buttons.

A Welsh D really is a lot of pony for a child to take on, no matter how good a rider they are, most children will lack the strength, co-ordination and timing needed to deal with issues like this, especially on a larger pony. She's unlikely to be able to follow the advice about turning in small circles or forcing the pony to back up further than it wants to. Some schooling by an adult will hopefully help, but it won't necessarily solve the problem entirely.

It would obviously be sad to have to sell your pony, but if you want your daughter to continue to enjoy riding, you need to keep her confidence up. In some ways, I do think it would be a good idea for you to get on the pony- not just to help school her, but also to see what your daughter is dealing with. In some ways, backing up can feel quite scary from on top, especially if you know there's nothing you can do about it.

Have you asked your daughter at all what she would like to do? I don't think it's fair to make a decision either way without at least asking her if she wants to persevere or not.
 
Don't rule out pain as a cause of the napping. My mare started napping for no reason about 6 months after being backed. I assumed she was trying me out and put up with it for a whole 12 months before I got the vet out. Turned out she had grade iv pyloric stomach ulcers which the vet said are incredibly painful. I am gutted I didn't listen to her sooner.
 
TGM said:
I think with a pony that only naps in the school, doing an hour's work in the school is likely to be counter-productive.

Any chance you can send pony to instructor's yard, or another trainer's yard, for a couple of weeks or so, where pony can be trained to obey the forward aids, AND daughter can have lessons as well?

I think you really do need to have an experienced eye assess the combination of pony and daughter to work out where the problem lies - is pony in discomfort (eg saddle, hocks, feet, back, rider's hands, bit etc) or has it learned to take advantage of a less mature rider, or has pony never been properly been trained to be obedient to the leg. If there is no physical discomfort, then pony needs very clear, consistent training to obey the forward aids, which may difficult for a young rider to do on their own. I think if you can have some intensive training with a good trainer for a while it will give you a much clearer idea whether to persevere with this pony or look for a more straightforward schoolmaster. They don't have to be expensive if they are older ponies, and as said above, there are often reliable ponies available for loan. (By the way, when I say 'intensive', I don't mean hours in the school, but consistent, regular sessions).
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Thanks TGM - I've started getting advice from the people around us and am still waiting for instructor to reply to my message! I'm going to post an update thread, but we've been riding every day for last few days and are seeing a huge improvement. Perhaps we just weren't working her enough.... but time will tell.

Penumbra thanks, absolutely and we had chatted about it before, she's adamant she wants to persevere with Becky but would consider a loan of a smaller pony only as a very last resort.

Vanrim and Kaylum thank you - have contacted my saddle fitter as a first port of call, she's excellent, will take it further if needed too.
 
Just a point you have probably considered... If an adult got on a pony BECAUSE it was known to be misbehaving a bit, they would ride it very positively from the beginning... Is it possible that your daughter who loves her pony is giving her the benefit of the doubt each time and not catching the naughty behaviour soon enough? For example if yesterday she napped at the gate, I would be giving her a few good reminders on the neck on the outside approaching it for the first time the day after (and, to be honest, every day after until all problems were resolved!) to get her attention and show I was one step ahead- maybe a kid riding doesn't want to 'punish' her pony until she does something wrong, but the pony is spotting every opportunity!!
 
sportsmansB said:
Just a point you have probably considered... If an adult got on a pony BECAUSE it was known to be misbehaving a bit, they would ride it very positively from the beginning... Is it possible that your daughter who loves her pony is giving her the benefit of the doubt each time and not catching the naughty behaviour soon enough? For example if yesterday she napped at the gate, I would be giving her a few good reminders on the neck on the outside approaching it for the first time the day after (and, to be honest, every day after until all problems were resolved!) to get her attention and show I was one step ahead- maybe a kid riding doesn't want to 'punish' her pony until she does something wrong, but the pony is spotting every opportunity!!
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good point SportsmanB! Yes she would naturally only remind pony AFTER something had gone wrong. But yesterday the livery owner (after she had napped the first time at my horse) was getting her to put the leg on just before she got to my horse... she would trot past other horses fine yesterday but was trying not to canter past them. Another thing I have to point out to Laura is that, just because it's going well, don't push it. Especially as we're still getting her fit. Laura loves cantering, so when Becky is being good she wants to canter a lot - I got her to stop before Becky became too tired and sweaty though (at which point we might start having problems again).
 
ozpoz said:
I am struggling with the combination of a 10yr old rider and a green Welsh D. ( I love Welshies, and have had a few.) I would never have considered one for my daughter when she was 10. I honestly think at that age, however talented your little jockey may be, a pony who instils confidence is the way forward.
I think stronger bits etc can cause problems in a childs hands and I see no benefit in "games" except to the novice owner who isn't managing to ride through problems, sorry. Why not find an older rider to teach your girl her job, and look for a pony your child can have fun with. Take the pressure off both of you. : )
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Sorry but I completely agree with this. Height being irrelevant (I agree that temperament is key), Welshies are very different to ponies than what people think, generally they are more like small horses than ponies. As someone else mentioned, they are usually backed by adults only. My boy is wonderful but he has his moments and they would be terrifying for a child to deal with. Not to mention the fact that he probably wouldn't be wonderful with a sole child rider in the first place. £1,200 is quite cheap for a Welsh that is going well under-saddle (which I assume she was when you bought her for a child?) I am all for people persevering but this situation involves a child. Unless you are willing to invest in regular lessons, then I think you may be better off cutting your losses before you end up with a nightmare pony and a child that doesn't want to ride at all anymore. Sorry..
 
muckypony said:
Sorry but I completely agree with this. Height being irrelevant (I agree that temperament is key), Welshies are very different to ponies than what people think, generally they are more like small horses than ponies. As someone else mentioned, they are usually backed by adults only. My boy is wonderful but he has his moments and they would be terrifying for a child to deal with. Not to mention the fact that he probably wouldn't be wonderful with a sole child rider in the first place. £1,200 is quite cheap for a Welsh that is going well under-saddle (which I assume she was when you bought her for a child?) I am all for people persevering but this situation involves a child. Unless you are willing to invest in regular lessons, then I think you may be better off cutting your losses before you end up with a nightmare pony and a child that doesn't want to ride at all anymore. Sorry..
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And you would have us do that when the situation is improving? I cannot stress enough that this pony is not dangerous (we have had a dangerous pony, and I know the difference!). So you are entitled to your opinion but we will be persevering - thanks. If this comes across as defensive you must forgive me - you did feel the need to put "sorry" at the end of the statement. My most recent post indicates that we are now seeing a huge improvement and I also stated that they had been super together in the past. I don't think you can generally say that no Welsh is ever suitable for a child.

Sorry ;) I am getting more assertive in my responses if I don't agree with what people are saying.
 
I do agree with you when you say height is irrelevant though. The pony is 14.1hh so yes on the larger side. But she CAN be very biddable. I am not of the opinion that a child should have a perfect push button pony - Becky has taught Laura SO much. I think they are going to be great together if we keep up the good work, which I've talked about in my most recent thread "Update on cheeky pony". I would only reconsider if she didn't improve when out and about with Laura.
 
muckypony said:
Sorry but I completely agree with this. Height being irrelevant (I agree that temperament is key), Welshies are very different to ponies than what people think, generally they are more like small horses than ponies. As someone else mentioned, they are usually backed by adults only. My boy is wonderful but he has his moments and they would be terrifying for a child to deal with. Not to mention the fact that he probably wouldn't be wonderful with a sole child rider in the first place. £1,200 is quite cheap for a Welsh that is going well under-saddle (which I assume she was when you bought her for a child?) I am all for people persevering but this situation involves a child. Unless you are willing to invest in regular lessons, then I think you may be better off cutting your losses before you end up with a nightmare pony and a child that doesn't want to ride at all anymore. Sorry..
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Also - this part "before you end up with a nightmare pony and a child that doesn't want to ride at all anymore. Sorry" - this happened with her first pony (a Dartmoor) who was a NIGHTMARE. We did exactly as you have suggested. But this situation is different - and I know the difference. Laura still loves riding her - there is no chance this pony will affect her confidence in that way. When I posted this we were having a bad patch (we tend to after Bex has had a break) but things are improving again and she's practically perfect for L now. Why would we sell her?? That would be more traumatic for my daughter, I do think people underestimate that. I've sought advice from the pros around me and they say "no way get a different pony for Laura, it's not straight forward but she is doing very well with this one".
 
sportsmansB said:
Just a point you have probably considered... If an adult got on a pony BECAUSE it was known to be misbehaving a bit, they would ride it very positively from the beginning... Is it possible that your daughter who loves her pony is giving her the benefit of the doubt each time and not catching the naughty behaviour soon enough? For example if yesterday she napped at the gate, I would be giving her a few good reminders on the neck on the outside approaching it for the first time the day after (and, to be honest, every day after until all problems were resolved!) to get her attention and show I was one step ahead- maybe a kid riding doesn't want to 'punish' her pony until she does something wrong, but the pony is spotting every opportunity!!
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Yup that is where I was coming from with regards to daughter not riding without instruction and someone else working the mare to try and set some better boundaries. You do always have to keep on top of them though. Mine is 14.2 22yo and would be described by most as a schoolmaster, especially as if you do it correctly he will reward you, schooled and competed up to elem dressage, fair amount of jumping, hunting etc generally a good egg.

But if the fancy take him he will occasionally try it, he tried it with a pro at the first fence on an XC course and she couldn't believe it as he had been going and straight- he was told under no uncertain terms was that acceptable and didn't try it again. He tries it with my mum, either spooking or more amusingly spending half the session desperate to demonstrate his medium trot, he's tried it with my sister, and still occasionally with me...after 10 years. He particularly likes to check whether he is really going to have to go forwards and if you say yes then spooking to see if that unnerves you.

His previous owner had him as a small 12 yo and was an excellent rider and not put off by him and he has been used by a local girl for lessons too and is also ridden by a more novice sharer - but she either has a lesson from the YO or me and I think he can only do that, like a lot of ponies ;), if someone is keeping on top of them the rest of the time too.
 
ester said:
Yup that is where I was coming from with regards to daughter not riding without instruction and someone else working the mare to try and set some better boundaries. You do always have to keep on top of them though. Mine is 14.2 22yo and would be described by most as a schoolmaster, especially as if you do it correctly he will reward you, schooled and competed up to elem dressage, fair amount of jumping, hunting etc generally a good egg.

But if the fancy take him he will occasionally try it, he tried it with a pro at the first fence on an XC course and she couldn't believe it as he had been going and straight- he was told under no uncertain terms was that acceptable and didn't try it again. He tries it with my mum, either spooking or more amusingly spending half the session desperate to demonstrate his medium trot, he's tried it with my sister, and still occasionally with me...after 10 years. He particularly likes to check whether he is really going to have to go forwards and if you say yes then spooking to see if that unnerves you.

His previous owner had him as a small 12 yo and was an excellent rider and not put off by him and he has been used by a local girl for lessons too and is also ridden by a more novice sharer - but she either has a lesson from the YO or me and I think he can only do that, like a lot of ponies ;), if someone is keeping on top of them the rest of the time too.
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Thanks Ester. You see - why would anyone want a push button pony when you can have a character like our two? ;)

I've posted a happy update - see here:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?697645-Update-on-cheeky-pony

Feeling much more positive now. Will be even better when the instructor decides to reply to my message about extra lessons!
 
ester said:
especially as if you do it correctly he will reward you, schooled and competed up to elem dressage, fair amount of jumping, hunting etc generally a good egg.
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Also, it is worth reiterating that I think Laura will learn better riding because as you said - if you do it correctly they reward you. She's really having to learn to be a responsive and actually a pre-emptive rider. She still has a lot to learn and on a push button pony that just did anything regardless - I don't think she'd learn AS much.

Am hoping the instructor (a small adult who schools ponies and events for a living too) will ride Becky too - think you're right and it will really help.
 
LinzyD said:
Ooh, just thought of another thing that helped with a very idle Section C and my other niece. The pony used to take her to the gate all the time, so I put a diamond of poles on the floor in the centre of the arena and called it 'the magic box'. She had to mount inside the box, do transitions through the box, so doing lots of figures of 8 with trot-walk-trot through the magic box, walk-halt-walk, etc,
and if the pony tried ambling off with her we'd do small turns in and out of the box (a bit like the circling thing mentioned above), and at the end of the session - and this was key - she would dismount inside the box and give the pony lots of praise and a treat. It didn't take him long to learn that the gate was not the way to the end of the session, but the magic box might yield a treat or signal the end. These Welshies - it's a constant game of wits!!!
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^^ This is a great idea, will be giving this ago with my naughty sec A!
 
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