Stud Dog NOT advertised as Unproven

Passtheshampoo

Passtheshampoo

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 September 2008
Messages
1,135
Visit site
Hi All
I took my KC reg bitch to a KC reg dog in Jan after seeing an advert on the internet. The ad never said dog was unproven. I was asked by breeder to have my bitch blood tested to check she was ovulating which I did and took her to the dog when vet advised. My bitch didn't become pregnant and so we said we'd try again on her next season (as arranged when we first met). At that point it was mentioned that the dog didn't have any pups on the ground! I'd paid the stud fee at the first mating and obtained a receipt, again no mention of the stud dog being unproven.
Just had an email from the breeder to say the stud dop is terminally ill and no longer available but I could use her other 10mth old dog or one of her friend's dogs. I've asked for a refund do you think I'm being fair?
 
We always used to offer a free stud for the proving stud. Things may be different now but certainly if the dog you wanted to use is no longer available I would think it is reasonable to expect your stud fee to be returned. Apart from anything else a 10month old pup won't have had any health tests.
 
Why was it not researched when you were getting the studs hip, elbow and other health certs?

Sounds like a not very well researched breeding going on here. Eeek
 
This breeder sounds like a bit of a chump. I would be asking for a refund and a thanks but no thanks to the 10 month old PUP that is being offered! What breed are we talking about here btw?
 
What tests did the stud dog have? Why did you use him without asking to see pics of pups, if nothing else to ensure he threw pups you liked?!
 
To be honest I'd ask for my money back too, although it's not uncommon for people to use an unproven dog, they have to start somewhere, you ought to really have asked. It's also not that unusual for a breeder/owner of a stud dog to offer the use of another stud dog although I think the one offered is probably too young.
 
Generally stud dogs are not advertised as "unproven". Most bitch owners in the first place would ask about previous litters sired by the stud in the first place, and if possible to see the progeny. And even though you had the bitch blood tested that in itself is not a guarantee the bitch will take at all. There are other factors that can make it the bitches "fault". The stud dog is not always to blame. 10 months is young but many breeders do use dogs at that age. But is this young dog related to the terminally ill dog? And if so what is the terminal illness? Is it something that is in the line, therefore hereditary.
 
We use an unproven dog ..but the bitch owner only pays up after the 28 day scan,or in the case of a trusted friend ,out of her puppy sale money.Once a dog is proven ,of course they pay for the service at the time,We ask for the premate blood test so it is not a waste of time all round.
 
Hi My bitch is an Irish Setter. The stud dog had clear tests for hereditary diseases or I wouldn't have used him. The stud agreement was for my bitch to return to that particular dog is she failed to take the first time, there was no mention of what would happen if he was unavailable. The dog has lymphoma, not sure if that would have affected his fertility or not. Yes breeding is a risk to all parties and perhaps I should have asked more questions. Needless to say the breeder hasn't got back to me regarding my request for a refund which doesn't exactly foster good relations!
 
Yeah I would be pretty peed off if I were you, fair enough if the covering wasn't successful due to a problem with your bitch but if the stud dog is no longer fit then that is their problem and they should be refunding you, not offering up stupid alternatives! Was the stud fee a lot?
 
cefyl said:
10 months is young but many breeders do use dogs at that age.
Click to expand...

Do they?! A backyard breeder or puppy farmer maybe, certainly no one I know who breeds would consider using a ten month old dog.

I can't believe any reputable or responsible breeder would use a physically/mentally immature dog which is far too young to be subject to a lot of health tests and which is only a pup itself, as a stud.
 
Send them a polite and formal letter requesting your money back as the dog is no longer available so the contract no longer is viable. they may not give full refund as you have tried once, but at least half I would say.
 
Ok my thoughts:

1) KC registered doesn't mean a lot. Just because a dog/bitch is KC registered doesn't mean it should be bred from. The dog/ bitch should be exceptional in ALL ways.

2) Good stud dogs owned by people who aren't in it to make money are not advertised on the internet. Word of mouth is more than sufficient.

3) The contract you signed should have mentioned what happened if there was no live litter, or if there was only one pup. It should have given a money back or free return in the event of no pups. Also, if the stud dog owner wanted a pick from the litter (I'm guessing there was no mention of this which I find shocking frankly).

4) Why on earth would you need blood tests unless you live miles away and are making a long trip or for AI? Any good stud dog owner should provide all the info you need to know when, and you should research this yourself. The bitch will be clear when she is ready and the dog, proven or not (and yes I do know have seen it myself) will know when is 'good'. Either way a bitch will not allow a dog to mount until she is ready, and when she is ready she will do everything she can to entice the male. Any intervention should be minimal and if at all should only be after the male turns round as first time bitches can try to flip upside down.

5) How many ties happened? How far apart and what happened when they mated? If it only happened once it may have been too soon or too late.

6) Learn from the experience, try and get your money back and if not, walk away. Then, ask yourself why you need to breed at all. You can shout me down all you like but if you were ready to have a litter you wouldn't have posted this. The same can be said for the 'stud dog' owner.

Sorry if I am harsh but my post has good intentions. Breeding dogs is way too easy these days. I feel sick reading all these 'I have a dog with balls so I will make money from him......' adverts . Clearly you need to re-assess. Cut your losses and if you feel your girl is good enough (ie health tests, working ability and temperament) and you have homes lined up then research well and find a stud dog through word of mouth. Have a lovely litter, enjoy the experience and forget that 'first time'. I hope it all works out for you. Do let us know how you get on.
 
Hi Suzysparkle

To answer your questions. My bitch was deemed by her breeder (well respected breeder and show judge) to be of a standard to breed from. She has good conformation and a lovely temperament. I've waited until my bitch is 3 years old to breed and intend to breed one litter only. It is not a money making exercise on my part but something I've always wanted to do. I would keep one of the pups and have some lovely homes lined up for the others.

The stud dog has now been pts. The stud dog owner has stated they will not refund my stud fee as they have offered use of their younger unproven dog or a friend's proven dog (further to travel) both with the same breeding lines as the deceased stud (not sure if lymphoma is hereditary).

Our original agreement (done via emails not an actual contract as such) was for the use of the said dog and a free return to that dog. No mention of a replacement if he was unavailable for whatever reason.

The stud had had previous bitches to him but the owner only advised me he hadn't any pups once I thought my bitch may be in pup. When I asked via email if he had any pups on the ground the question was ignored.

My bitch had a 25 minute tie with the dog and had a Premate blood test the day before. My vet advised me to get her to the dog over the next 24-48 hours.

I'm a reasonable person and don't want to rock the boat unnecessarily. I do feel as though the stud dog owner hasn't been entirely straight with me and pretty much has had my cash and that's that as far as she's concerned. Perhaps it's the wording of a 'free return' but surely that's part of your agreement with someone that you can return to the same dog unless previously agreed??

Whilst I agree I could have been better prepared (hindsights a wonderful thing) I also think the stud dog owner has not thought things through, especially as she is offering a service and taking money from people.
 
Why was the stud dog put so sleep? That must have been very upsetting for the owner in itself, which could well answer for her lack of response.Also ,what breed are we talking about? As said we always insist on a premate blood test,in my breed matings are far from easy even on the correct day..so a bit of science has to come into it to save disappointment all round.
Actually I think they are being extremely fair with you,nothing in nature is guaranteed a result,you are now being offered a repeat to a proven good dog..why not take it?If you have since decided not to breed that is definitely not the stud owner`s problem.
 
Last edited:
As mentioned previously we are talking Irish Setters. The stud dog had lymphoma so I'm not sure if using a dog with very similar bloodlines is a good idea if it is hereditary. Would anyone on here know? I do still wish to breed and using a proven dog would be very acceptable to me but not at the risk of breeding pups which could have a genetic link to cancer.
 
It would be your choice to select another line,but in this case the dog owner is trying to rectify your disappointment;why not ask your bitch`s breeder the way to go,often they have in depth knowledge of various lines that compliment each other?
Bear in mind that just at the moment the recession is biting deeply and all puppies are hard to sell right now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top