success stories with lazy horse?

NiceNeverNaughty

NiceNeverNaughty

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can anyone offer me some hope?

My beautiful , lovely welsh d is so lazy. Less so on a hack but schooling is so frustrating. We have regular lessons with well known instructors and attend clinics at RC and since buying him back in August Ive worked to get him fitter, he is stabled at night, on ad lib haylage and 2 feeds of conditioning cubes as he doesn't hold weight well. His teeth were done not long after I got him and Ive had the physio out to check his back (which was fine) and a new saddle fitted. Ive also tried turbo flakes etc but nothing seems to have any affect.

I'm trying very hard to follow through on the advice given which is that it all comes down to schooling, consistency and keeping him interested. I ride with spurs and a schooling whip and am as consistent as I can be to back up my aids if he ignores them or starts to grind to a halt. It takes a few smacks in a row to get a reaction at all and usually a buck to evade it - which I ride through and forward as at least he is going!! There are moments of 'WOW' when he really takes me forward and out on hacks when he is in the mood for it he can really motor and has huge movement and power from behind for only being 15hh. However Im starting to feel disheartened as every lesson or time we school Im coming in as if Ive run a marathon. It's not as if he is asked to go in the school more than twice a week generally and at home we school in a field. Ive started jumping him but Im starting to think I will never be secure over a fence on him as he lacks so much energy coming in and then balloons in a catleap, catapulting me onto his neck and giving me whiplash. I try and hack him as much as possible and keep a variety, today we worked over raised poles and a couple of cross poles in my field for all of 30 mins before I physically felt sick with actual exertion, the only other time that has happened to me was when I was running a 10k!

Aside from this he is a LOVLEY horse , so if anyone has any success stories or tips I would love to hear them as could do with a boost , the last suggestion from an RI was to have him chase us on with a lunging whip from the ground.
 
Whats he like with someone else on him? Has he done any funrides or hunted?

I had lessons with my Welshy, he'd go nice but always be behind the leg. He placed in dressage but I'd come out dripping in sweat from making him move, had him since a 3yr old and it was always the same from the day I backed him.
Hes worse in the heat so always ride on a evening in summer. I asked my vet to look over him (specialists in lameness) as he was on the yard. He was a bit lame on his left hind. Scanned and diagnosed with PSD last year, which was basically suspensory damage.. he was only 7 but the vet thinks its a injury thats been there years.
Since the op hes like a different horse...

I'm just trying to say, if you don't get to the bottom of it and he doesn't improve - do get a vet out to have a look, get him on the lunge, on hard surface and check its nothing underlying.
 
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Its a shame hes the same when jumpung, often that livens them up a bit- my boy is pretty lazy to school on the flat but he is different when he sees a fence
Could you make it more fun by jumping following another horse in a nice forward canter? Somtimes with a youngster that helps them get the idea, he may have missed that part of his education.
What about hunting? or a pairs hunter trial? Or a trip to the gallops with a friend?
 
you could have been writing about my sec D. Looked wonderful, a most beautiful horse and IF he wanted to he could go nicely. Unfortunately for most of the time he just could not be arsed to. My solution to the problem was to retire him. That way we were both happy. I didn't have to be sick with the exertion and he didn't have to make the effort to go. He loved early retirement.

ps having just read the post above all his work was going out and hopefully having fun. Didn't make any difference to him
 
I had the same struggle, I use a long schooling whip. He gets a squeeze if that's ignored then a flick. You have to be consistent, he now normally just goes off a squeeze. Make sure you vary your schooling, possibly try schooling in a field? If he bucks push through it and accept any forwardness. If you ask for more in the walk and he trots, accept it, once he's learnt to go off the leg then you can work on asking for more/less in each gait. Don't let him drop down a gait on his own, if you feel him back off at all get your leg straight on him, flick with the whip if you need to.

I would also have him checked by a vet to rule out anything health/pain wise.
 
Cob Life said:
I had the same struggle, I use a long schooling whip. He gets a squeeze if that's ignored then a flick. You have to be consistent, he now normally just goes off a squeeze. Make sure you vary your schooling, possibly try schooling in a field? If he bucks push through it and accept any forwardness. If you ask for more in the walk and he trots, accept it, once he's learnt to go off the leg then you can work on asking for more/less in each gait. Don't let him drop down a gait on his own, if you feel him back off at all get your leg straight on him, flick with the whip if you need to.

I would also have him checked by a vet to rule out anything health/pain wise.
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Using a whip might or probably will make the horse listen to you there and then but it’s not making for a willing and happy partner. Most horses enjoy going out, especially in company and off roads and I would concentrate on that and see how you go ....
 
I think it could be a few things and it's hard to work out from one post which it may be.
He may be uncomfortable somewhere, in which case vet is the way forward.
He may be behind the leg for some reason and needs bringing on, in which case a good instructor is needed (there's a time and a place for being chased with a lunge whip but it's not something I'd really choose to just get a backward horse forward.. i don't think that instructor is the right one.)
He may be one of life's super idle horses and more suited to a job with someone who wants exactly that.

If he's not hurting or essentially a dobbin, then it's worth thinking a bit more about why he is behind the leg. My backward thinking Welsh goes into herself when she is worried and then no amount of poles, variety, escalating aids etc will have any difference because she isn't confident enough to be forward. So that's something else to throw in... is he anxious (and that may not show on the outside too much because some horses really internalise it). Mine still needed to learn that she had to stay on the aids when she was confident, but I also have to notice when she's anxious because if I start escalating my requests when her brain is shut down we both just end up frustrated.

Oh, OP asked for a success story, well.. I started out coming away from shows feeling like I had done more work than she had. But she's now at Advanced level dressage and doing quite well for a stumpy legged pony. it has taken a lot of work and patience but she's quite forward now :) she'll never be super duper forward but I've been able to teach her to go for herself.
 
bonny said:
Using a whip might or probably will make the horse listen to you there and then but it’s not making for a willing and happy partner. Most horses enjoy going out, especially in company and off roads and I would concentrate on that and see how you go ....
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It's what I've had to do as I can't take mine out cause he just gets scared and bolts. But that would be my first choice
 
The combination of being a poor doer and being really very backwards would worry me that there's something underlying.

As for success stories, Fergus (there on the left doing archery) was really very backwards when he was younger. Jumping doesn't work for him at all - he was never really confident in taking me to a fence so while he would go into it, even fairly forward with work, it always defaulted to awkward leaps. He did school to a decent level and was quite rideable and could work nicely in front of the leg, his default was always behind the leg. He was always fairly stressy to hack and that made him backwards. But having spent several years pretty much just hacking, he's now forward to the point of daft and idiotic. He's just towed me around 10km :rolleyes:
 
At least Im not alone then! Ive had different people on him and he is just the same, if not worse sometimes. Don't get me wrong, there is a marked improvement to where we were 3 months ago and he looks well in himself and has put weight on. I do wonder about him being shut down, he stands with his bottom lip dropping half asleep most of the time! It was after an instructor rode him for me last year that I got the physio out as she wanted me to make sure there was nothing sore actually making him unable to go forward. He was given a thorough work over and she couldn't find anything. Most of the time I ride on my own but when I do get to hack out with a friend he is so much better and the way he can gallop up a hill after his pal reassures me that he's not restricted in any way as Ive never felt such power and length of stride when he really goes for it. A general lameness workup at our vet hospital is not a bad idea but there is only so much I can afford to spend.
One instructor has already told me she is of the opinion it is just who he is , a lovely sweet, safe and gentile boy who wants to be a happy hacker and just to leave him be in his 'happy place'. Thanks for the replies everyone :)
 
My welsh D x was getting very lazy in the school, more forwards out hacking. I had a lameness work up done which found him unlevel in his hinds, although only when we had to do the awful lunge on concrete did it show. Turned out he had arthritis in both hocks bless him, had him injected but decided to retire him as a happy hack, at the age of 7.
My welsh D is 18 now and can be the laziest horse ever...until he sees a jump wing or gets in the show ring, his hocks are all good.
 
NiceNeverNaughty said:
One instructor has already told me she is of the opinion it is just who he is , a lovely sweet, safe and gentile boy who wants to be a happy hacker and just to leave him be in his 'happy place'.
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I was just about to reply that perhaps he is one of life's very, very happy hackers and just does not rate anything than going out for a blast with other horses? I've had one of these and he was worth his weight in gold as a happy hacker and could have sold him many times over as a very safe but enthusiastic hacking horse for a tidy sum.....not a chance he would ever shine even just trying to school him let alone anything mildly structured and competitive. sometimes horse like these can make fabulous hunters if thats your bag.

horse for courses etc. ;)
 
I had a very backward Welshie many years ago. I stopped riding her in the school (difficult this time of year I know), and just hacked. I also started hunting her - which she just loved. I returned to the school eventually where she did become more responsive. Summer months involved doing as many pleasure rides as possible. And she turned in to a cracking little horse. I also made the most of riding as many different horses as possible (everything from breakers to established), which really improved my riding.

It’s important to remember, though, that not every horse is forward thinking. Some just are, well - plods...

However it’s important to look at all aspects of management to see what could change or improve to ensure that you’re ultimately getting the best out of him. Food is always a good starting point. My mare did very well on grass nuts and oats. I steered clear of mixes, and whilst I appreciate the reasons for you feeding conditioning cubes, the sugar content could be too high. Make sure the hay or haylage is the best quality and fed in sufficient quantities.

It may also worth a general health check and some blood work to check various levels.
 
A horse that seems lazy to hack, in general, can make a very good hunter, as mentioned above. They will liven up enough to be a forward but not too fizzy ride. Good idea to have a health check first though.
 
I have a welsh d, she’s umm economical with effort if she’s able to get away with it but after many years of trying to sharpen her up she’s now very responsive to my aids and at 21 going the best she’s ever has. She just switches off if you nag her so I have to make sure am giving clear aids.
 
Suppleness - make it easier for the horse to do what you are asking, and they will be more willing. Transitions, baby jumps, poles, warming up well in walk first...

And doing all the ‘wrong’ things out hacking (super fast, always cantering in the same places etc!) and in the school (I used the ‘spooky corner’ to get canter transitions!).

This time last year, every ride on my husband’s cob cross left me exhausted. Now, he is willing and I am no longer tired after riding him! I no longer have to ride every stride just to make him move. Bliss!

Unfortunately his younger sister has just started her schooling work...now I am tired again!!!!

Seriously though, kicking and hitting won’t get you where you want to be (it has its place, with the correct timing, but only for specific correction and by the end of the session you shouldn’t still be needing to do so!). Find an instructor who has more knowledge and can really help.
 
When treating a horse similar to this at my yard Tom Beech suggested improving the gut health could make the horse more comfortable and loosen up their movement making it easier to go forward. Hind gut problems make it really uncomfortable for them to step under and they end up behind the leg. Tom recommended linseed oil mixed with Bicarb (i'll find the recipe if you're interested), milk thistle powder and bosweillia. He then began a basic rehab programme to help build the muscles that were weak due to the horse not working properly. The horse improved within a few weeks and was very different in 6 months.
 
Millie was pretty lazy when she arrived. I think she’d gotten used to being nagged along soul unless you kicked every other stride, she just wouldn’t sustain the pace she was in.

I sharpened her up by taking my leg off. She had to learn to stay in the pace I put her in until asked otherwise. It did take some sharp leg aids and carrying a schooling whip for the occasional tap. I absolutely had to ensure that I did not creep back into putting my leg on her every stride. If I felt the pace did under me, I sent her forwards strongly and then leg off again.
I also did and still do, lots of transition work. Trot-halt-trot etc.
She now actually verges on being a bit too hot sometimes, but she’s a completely different horse now- fit, supple etc. I also did a load of hacking and actually tested all the gears out in open fields. She really had no idea that she had different types of trot and canter until I got her out into the open and took advantage of her freshness to show her that she does actually have a medium trot in there. If I had tried to do this in the school it would have been a battle. I did it all put hacking and then was able to transfer it to the school work once she was fitter and more balanced.
 
30 mins of pole work is actually quite a workout for the horse! If they're raised its like you doing high knee runs. Lots of good advice on here but keeping schooling sessions strict, short and snappy really does help. Set a timer on your phone. 5 mins warm up, 5 mins transitions, 5 mins exercises 5 mins cool down.

Another success story here. George was super lazy and backwards, in the last 5 years he has been diagnosed and treated for PSD and ulcers. But he still held a fair bit of pain memory. I keep schooling sessions short and interesting. First thoughts are "is he taking me forwards" all the time. I use a stick but not spurs as saving them for higher level work. Competing elementary BD and aiming higher!
 
bonny said:
I would stop schooling altogether for now and just take him out and about to different places and have fun !
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This - but if you want to school you have to find a way to change his ‘this is so boring’. I used to mix schooling and jumping which helped .... but clicker training while riding (we did it on the ground first) and adding in little ‘show trick’ really changed her whole attitude!!
 
You say you have "got him back" in the last few months but you don't say what he was doing in his last home? As Jules111 says I would be asking Tom Beech to have a look at him. He will give you a holistic assessment of him physically and care-wise. Once you are happy that there is nothing else you can do for him practically, I might think about turning him away for a few months and let him have a holiday.
 
milliepops said:
My backward thinking Welsh goes into herself when she is worried and then no amount of poles, variety, escalating aids etc will have any difference because she isn't confident enough to be forward.
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Mine is exact the same, even now. If I take him somewhere new. New arena is usually where he gets most worried, he completely goes into himself. I had a lesson 6 months ago, oh my he went cracking at home on the surface. The instructor said he was HOYS quality (yes to my shock too!). Took him to the same instructors group rally away from home, he was so so nervous he didn't want to do anything. She asked if I bought the same horse! How did you overcome it MP?

@NiceNeverNaughty I'd recommend getting some insurance, just in case you do need it in the future. Remember how clever Welshies are.. they do need variety. Some group hacking, cantering across fields, mix it up like others have said. I use to keep schooling sessions to just 10 minutes and leave with him full having plenty of fuel in the tank so it was a good experience and he didn't get fed up. Good luck - let us know how you get on :)
 
paddy555 said:
you could have been writing about my sec D. Looked wonderful, a most beautiful horse and IF he wanted to he could go nicely. Unfortunately for most of the time he just could not be arsed to. My solution to the problem was to retire him. That way we were both happy. I didn't have to be sick with the exertion and he didn't have to make the effort to go. He loved early retirement.



ps having just read the post above all his work was going out and hopefully having fun. Didn't make any difference to him
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Exactly this. After eight years I am now seriously thinking of retiring mine.
 
My trainer has a mantra - click, flick, kick, stick. Ask him forward with your voice or a click, if he reacts, lots of praise, if not reaction 'flick' with the leg, then more of a kick and finally stick. It worked wonders for my share horse. He's lazy but genuine so just wants an easy life and doing what's asked first time is the answer. We rarely get beyond flick now. However, with his owner's son who is less assertive with him he'll dawdle as he knows he'll get away with it.

I would want to rule out any problems before you push him though. Twice, M has got quite lethargic for a week or two an then gone lame. He could have something underlying stopping him from wanting to go forwards. Have you tried a bute trial? It's far from a full workup and ideally he'd have that too but it might give you a relatively cost effective starting point if he's better once he's on bute.
 
About 3 years ago I bought a horse as an interim ride / project. He had been in an agricultural college and come out very sour. He was a lovely model of an allrounder and as my main strength is dressage I thought I’d cheer him up and turn him into a lovely dressage orientated allrounder.

Well I got the sour nap out of him within a week. I got him consistently in front of the leg within the next fortnight. I spent a good 6 weeks hacking, off-roading, jumping little stuff, going up the gallops until I had a cheerful little horse.

I reintroduced the arena flatwork and there was a noticeable decline in enthusiasm. He was compliant but didn’t really want to be doing it! As soon as he was out of the arena he perked up.

Sometimes it’s a round hole and square peg situation.

That’s not to say I don’t think a horse shouldn’t have to do stuff they would rather not (I mean we have to go to work right!) but I do think it’s worth acknowledging that their priorities aren’t always the same as ours.

With that horse it took me 3 months to reach that conclusion and instead of continuing down the path to produce him for dressage I specifically sold him on as a hack/hunt/fun ride/jump horse.

Prior to that I purchased a beautiful young horse as a long term dressage horse for me. He was far more willing but ultimately 18 month in it was becoming apparent he would rather be a jumper than a dressage horse and sadly I was starting to admit to myself he needed to be moved on. Alas he injured himself before that could happen.

In your situation I’d do the following:
Blood test
Basic lameness exam
Experienced person to school and sharpen up
Accept him for what he is and focus his work on his strong points
 
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