Such a SAD day for so many fantastic horses ... The Grand National

TGM said:
Agree with this. I don't want to see the National banned, but I don't think that these deaths should be shrugged off as part and parcel of racing either. We need to find out exactly what were the factors that resulted in this horses falling and dying and use that knowledge to try and improve the race in future.
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Agreed. Horses do die doing horsesports, sadly, but these deaths should surely be used to improve the sport and make it that bit safer for the next horses to compete? For example, eventing now uses different jump flags in the x-country phase after a horrible accident at Badminton a few years ago (not trying to start a racing vs eventing war, but that was the first example of what I mean that came to mind).
 
Now that we all agree... what should we do to help change things in the future? Who do I write to?
 
tallyho! said:
Now that we all agree... what should we do to help change things in the future? Who do I write to?
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Oh, I should think "public opinion", as misguided/misinformed/fluffy as it may be, will do more good than any letters that we could write. That's the paradox. If it weren't for public pressure (not pressure from "true horsepeople" who will always tend to favour the status quo), the Grand National would still be run exactly the same as it ever was.
 
minesadouble said:
The main factor that I think led to the fatalities was the fast ground. I hate to watch this race run on fast ground. Apparently - I could be wrong mind - I have heard the powers that be did not water. If so then I think it wrong - that track could definitely have done with a bit of water in my opinion.
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I am sure they did water plenty beforehand, although once the meeting starts there is little point in watering, I have explained previously about the improvements in drainage at Aintree which means that however much water is spread the course will remain good/soft. The high temperature and prevailing wind would be enough to make the ground on the fast side of good between 8am and 2pm. I walked on the course on Thursday and the ground looked to be on the good side of soft after 2 races.

Also with reference to Luca Cumani's thoughts, I am not discounting them per se, but do remember that he is training 2 yr olds who live a very sterile existence, most NH horses get to see a bit of life alongside racing.
 
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At Badminton last year 56 completed, 33 didn't. That's still a biggish percentage of the field, bearing in mind very few of them just pull up as they do in racing. But I'm not knocking eventing, it's just at top level not that different.

They do look at all falls and deaths in racing. At Musselburgh if a horse has a catastrophic injury the part of the limb that went is cut from the carcass and taken to the Vet Hospital for analysis. (That I believe is how they caught JHJ out running a denerved horse)

If you look closely at the photos, Dooney's Gate is actually getting to his feet when the Pipe horse lands directly on his back. So really his sad death is more to do with the fluke of where he fell, and it being early in the course when the runners were still bunched up.

Doesn't make it any more acceptable, but it wasn't the initial fall that did the damage. I don't know how you could factor that and make changes to prevent it :confused:

According to ATR, Peter Toole is stable but critical. Thoughts with him.
 
Sorry to be a bit pedantic http://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/results/2010_results/final_results.aspx I read it as 57 completed cross country 24 did not. Still a fairly high percentage but how many of those were horse falls.

Agree all sports at particularly top level hold a risk however steps should be taken to minimise it. The jockeys though must also take some of the blame why oh why did they set of at such a ridiculous fast pace when they had such an ordeal ahead of them.
 
lannerch said:
Sorry to be a bit pedantic http://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/results/2010_results/final_results.aspx I read it as 57 completed cross country 24 did not. Still a fairly high percentage but how many of those were horse falls.

Agree all sports at particularly top level hold a risk however steps should be taken to minimise it. The jockeys though must also take some of the blame why oh why did they set of at such a ridiculous fast pace when they had such an ordeal ahead of them.
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Sorry, I went on final results - duh! :o

As I said, I'm not knocking eventing, but it's a given that if the anti-racing people get their way, eventing will be next. Interestingly, a couple of racehorse trainers I know think eventing is far more cruel than racing because the fences are solid.

I like both, and agree that it needs to be under continual review. That said, how would you have prevented yesterdays falls? No way could you have anticipated Ornais, and Dooney's Gate was sheer bad luck.

I think the fast ground was an issue, but the horses naturally travel so much quicker on it, and it's far to dangerous to take a pull at these fences. I think the weather caught the groundstaff out.
 
Caledonia said:
I think the fast ground was an issue, but the horses naturally travel so much quicker on it, and it's far to dangerous to take a pull at these fences. I think the weather caught the groundstaff out.
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I agree wholeheartedly with this.

I would love to know if there are any statistics on ground conditions in relation to fatal falls.

I expected fatal falls at this meeting simply on the basis that the ground was going to be too fast....
 
according to the daily mail:

33 tragedies at course in just 11 years By JO MACFARLANE
In all 33 horses have died during three-day Grand National meetings at Aintree since 2000 – and it is unusual for no horse to be killed as a result of the main race itself.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ggs-wins-day-drama-Aintree.html#ixzz1J7l7nMxX

That averages out at one horse a day ...

I know of no other equestrian sporting event in the UK where that level of fatality would be deemed acceptable. If a jockey had been killed every day changes would have been made. Less horses would be a start, then perhaps the poor Dooney's Gate would not have had another horse land on his back as he got up from his fall.
 
It was actually two horses that hit Dooneys Gate, the first no 6 Or Noir De Somoza (hope that's spelt right) and then Westend Rocker also landed on him. Whether he broke his back from the fall which looked to of been pretty hard considering he ended up facing the wrong way or when either of the following horses hit him who knows.

RIP Dooneys Gate and Ornais

Also wishing Peter Toole a speedy recovery from what was also a very hard fall.
 
tess1 said:
according to the daily mail:

33 tragedies at course in just 11 years By JO MACFARLANE
In all 33 horses have died during three-day Grand National meetings at Aintree since 2000 – and it is unusual for no horse to be killed as a result of the main race itself.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ggs-wins-day-drama-Aintree.html#ixzz1J7l7nMxX

That averages out at one horse a day ...

I know of no other equestrian sporting event in the UK where that level of fatality would be deemed acceptable. If a jockey had been killed every day changes would have been made. Less horses would be a start, then perhaps the poor Dooney's Gate would not have had another horse land on his back as he got up from his fall.
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Lets be clear, are you wanting to stop racing in general, or the National?
 
I've just listened to Andy Stewart being interviewed on ATR as the owner of Ornais. He is understandably gutted, but pragmatic. He is also horrified by the shabby journalism (it's not even worthy of that term, tbh) in today's papers. Rightly so, IMO. In fact, I'd go further than that - these papers are making masses of money by printing these photos, and sensationalising the very sad deaths of the two horses. Gutter press........

Two scenarios - which of the below are more sickening?

The car crash mentality of the press, whipping up extreme outrage at the expense of a desperately sad affair by manipulating statistics and blasting harrowing photos all over the paper, all in the name of making themselves money.

The connections of the horses who looked after them, cherished them, gave them a job to do that they relished and who are now quietly mourning the loss of their horses.
 
Just out of curiosity...

As racing is the ONLY equestrian sport focused on money and winning and not for the love of horses (/sarcasm)

I presume the pot of £60,000 from Badminton goes to charity? Because an eventer would never ever put a horse into competition, risk fatal rotational falls and maybe even use a whip to encourage them forward just for £60,000... would they?
 
You would have to be doing very well to get rich eventing there are a lot easier and more sucessful ways to make money!

I put my horse through all that for the love as do most eventers, and my horse is part of the family. Even at the lower levels all you list can occur. Eventing costs more than most people could ever dream of winning remember we do not have the betting industry connection.

So no I do not believe any eventer would enter badmington just for the money!

But then I also believe with most top trainers you will find they are not in it purely for money either, the national horses are not entered just for the winning pot, it is a challange the ultimate, and certainly at least in the stables the horses are much loved.
 
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I certainly think the ground conditions play a big part in the number of serious accidents. I always prefer it when it's very wet and actually quite heavy ground for the National (or most races actually) the horses tend to be going slower for a start and the falls have a softer landing!

They certainly did water the course for Aintree. I heard at the beginning of the week they actually had heavy rain in the west and initially the ground was deemed to be soft. Towards the end of the week it had dried significantly and they were only saying on friday morning on daybreak (they were at Aintree and I think were with the clerk of the course) how much they had been watering. I think the going was probably pretty perfect as far as jumping a course is concerned but maybe so good that the horses were encouraged to go faster.

I still am on the fence about the GN - in and ideal world no horses would be injured or killed doing events we love doing on them but that isn't life is it.

I live near Bramham and go every year and I remember one year when more than one horse died as a result of a fall at a particular fence (a bounce going downhill I think - madness really). They removed the fence as a result and have never put a similar fence in. Generally now they are no fatalities (you can never 100% stop them though) but there are plenty of horse and rider falls.

It's funny how people think the course is too long at 4 miles though and say how shattered the horses are. However, people see happy to take their horse to XC competitions every year over maybe 2 or so miles and expect their non-event fit (ie generally just used for hacking and leisure) horses to complete the course at a decent canter/gallop. Many riders tend to carry a little excess weight too but they still expect tehir horse to get round. At least racehorses are specifically trained for the job - they are ultra fit (whatever people may say) and there is a limit to what weight they can carry.

If my horse can make it round a 2+ mile XC course after having done a dressage test and a SJing round I don't think an ultra fit horse doing a 4 mile chase is actually that extraordinary. Sure, maybe they could shorten it but then it wouldn't be the GN would it!

I think they have done so much to improve the course - lowered the drops etc - I think one of the next things they could try is to lessen the numbers allowed in it. It would be interesting to see if it did make a difference.
 
brighteyes said:
This makes for heartbreaking reading - halfway dead and still he jumped...
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Horses do - they're already programmed to jump. He won't have made any 'decision' to jump, his brain will have sent the signals. And in fact, the reason he fell so spectacularly was he pretty much ran into it. I've seen it happen eventing. A friend of mine had a horse die underneath her over a fence - she felt him go wooden underneath her, he took off, but didn't land. She was very lucky.

I know a few people who have had horses die of heart attacks under them - a couple hunting, a couple hacking, one in a ptp, one at a BE Novice. All of these were in the 5-10 age bracket ......... it happens, and is nothing to do with lack of care, or cruelty.
 
tess1 said:
I think what happened today in the National is very, very sad. I was brought up by a father who loved racing and it was his proud boast that he'd taken me to every racecourse in the country by the age of fourteen! I was happy to take my dad to see the National as a treat when he was seventy .... now many years ago. From the age of fourteen I rode flapping ponies (racing ponies - flat, not jumping). I always thought they enjoyed it as much as I did.

As I've got older I've questioned more about what we do with horses. My personal feeling, and I appreciate that other people feel differently, is that two dead horses, a horse that needed oxygen and couldn't make it to the winner's enclosure, other horse(s?) who have died at the same meeting, a jockey in critical condition, and (according to the guardian) a five day ban on the rider of the winner of the national for excessive whip use is a big price to pay for a few days of 'sport'. The statistics suggest that the number of horses who die on this particular course is very high. I think it is appalling that these dead/dying horses were described as 'obstacles' and agree with the poster who said that 'receiving on-going veterinary treatment' might have been more sensitive and a lot closer to the truth.

I think the link posted by fburton is interesting in its take on racing. Luca Cumani does indeed say that racing harnesses the flight instinct of the horse. As he points out, why would a horse push himself through the pain barrier? He says that the jockey is 'agitating' the horse, and the horse that runs the fastest survives - or not, in the case of these horses that have died. In the herd, one gets frightened and runs, and then everyone else runs. As commented in the clip, racing has harnessed fear and turned it into a multi million pound industry. I think there is a lot of truth in this view - certainly I see no reason why LC would say these things to camera unless he believed them to be true - and I'm sure he knows a hell of a lot about horses!!

It's obvious that these kinds of events won't be banned. It's also obvious that the people who know and care for these horses will be deeply upset at their loss. The guy who owned the flappers I rode cried like a kid when his favourite pony died in an unforseeable and tragic accident. I think that if anything can be done to make the sport safer in any way, than that can only be a good thing. No one wants their horse to die in a race. No one wants to have ridden a horse to his death. I am disappointed to read some posts on this forum that seem to belittle the loss of these horses - there is always a lesson to be learned from these events ... I don't think that expressing the view that it is not really such a big deal is very constructive.

apologies if this has already been posted

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sands--end-dog-food-French-dinner-plates.html

sensationalist reporting definitely I think, given the timing, but nevertheless there is truth in here somewhere and sadly gives more fuel to the fire that horses are viewed as a commodity by the racing 'industry', to be chewed up and spat out when superfluous to requirements.

The DM has also printed some pictures which personally I find pretty horrific. In fact, some of them are so graphic that I am surprised they have been printed, given the fact that they show a jockey being apparently crushed as well as the fate of a now dead horse in pretty clear detail. However, I think it is important that these pictures are shown because only when people see what really goes on in these situations can they make an informed judgement as to whether it is acceptable or not.

RIP brave horses that lost their lives today. I hope no other horse (or human) has suffered serious injuries as a result of today's events.
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I agree ^^ though I think those DM photos should have been printed, IMO it wasn't sensationalism, it's the reality of the "sport". Not that you can really compare it at all, but just think how important early photos were of the world wars and Vietnam and Nagasaki and everywhere else inbetween where the power of a photo by its printing and showing what's involved may have led to better or different situation being the outcome next time round. Just think of the significance of that video appearing in the press of Anne the elephant being beaten coming to light just 2 weeks ago. It may have been uncomfortable but being in the press meant a better outcome for her. It's all I would want for horse-racing too and particularly the Grand National - that things are learnt from yesterday. While I'm no horse-racing fan I've been astonished today by people I know who are horse-racing fans who have said they won't watch the National ever again (not that that changes anything).
 
Caledonia said:
Lets be clear, are you wanting to stop racing in general, or the National?
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If you had read my other post I would have hoped that it was clear that I am not arguing to stop racing in general, or the National. I think it is unrealistic to imagine it would ever be stopped, and therefore it is best to consider how to make it safer for horses and riders. An average of one horse death per day over the last eleven years of the National meeting is, to my mind at least, unacceptably high, and suggests that things like ground conditions, size of fences and drops, number of horses allowed to take part and how the horses qualify all need to be considered. No one wants to lose a horse under such tragic circumstances, but realistically people will always want to race horses; therefore the more that can be done to increase the chances of horses coming home safely the better, surely?
 
Again - very few owners make money out of racing and no one makes money out of fallen horses - except perhaps the hunt and bookies.

Also re: Ornais - he appeared to lose his action 3 strides out. It would be impossible for a horse (or jockey) to pull up from a strong gallop within 3 strides therefore he would have had to tackle the fence. And he didnt exactly jump it either. :(

And Le Samurai - in the absence of the herd instinct and the fact that event horses do not usually tackle the fences from quite the same pace as racehorses - he could have been pulled up. That was rider error. I have watched both videos many many times.
 
blazingsaddles said:
You are right. Just leaves a very sour taste in the mouth when people make money out of it.
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Indeed - the papers have made more money than anyone else out of it. :rolleyes:

tess1 said:
If you had read my other post I would have hoped that it was clear that I am not arguing to stop racing in general, or the National. I think it is unrealistic to imagine it would ever be stopped, and therefore it is best to consider how to make it safer for horses and riders. An average of one horse death per day over the last eleven years of the National meeting is, to my mind at least, unacceptably high, and suggests that things like ground conditions, size of fences and drops, number of horses allowed to take part and how the horses qualify all need to be considered. No one wants to lose a horse under such tragic circumstances, but realistically people will always want to race horses; therefore the more that can be done to increase the chances of horses coming home safely the better, surely?
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There was one year when the meeting lost 9 horses - or a similar figure. That distorts the statistics significantly. Remove that, and it is not one a day.

That aside - if you use statistics, then use the fatalities to runners percentage. This w/e meeting had 328 runners, and 3 fatalities. That is less than 1%, and it is not the norm, it's slightly higher.
 
blazingsaddles said:
I am not the one making unsubstantiated statements - thats you. Its called put up or shut up.:):rolleyes:
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You are the one that wants to know?

FWIW, the bookies will have made next to nothing out of these two horses, Ornais went off around 80-1 and Dooney's Gate around 66-1.

Feel free to do enough research to prove me wrong, however. :rolleyes:

I look forward to seeing it.
 
alligator40 said:
of course it doesn't, just pointing out that racing isn't the only sport where unpleasant things happen to horses
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You know I know that. I'm fluffy, but a realist. If they are going to go, let them go quickly.

I was merely voicing my sadness that in spite of being hindered or affected prior to taking off Ornais still attempted (vaguely) the obstacle, and after Dooneys Gate scrambled to he feet, he was struck by two others.

Anyhow, they were, I'm sure attended to speedily and didn't suffer for long, if at all.
 
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