Sudden Horse Attack

[yaffsimone1]

My horse is the most placid, submissive horse on on the yard, hates confrontation and will run away from bullying.

Today he was with all his usual neds when he 'turned' on a 18 month old sec D who is also in the field. It was like watching the devil, this normally submissive horse galloped full pelt, head stretched out, ears back, nashing teeth at this poor pony. Grabbing at his neck and rugs

They are both Geldings

They normally get on fine and mine is most certainlly not aggressive.

The attacker doesnt seem to be under the weather and is not attacking the other horses

I know horses will be horses but this is completely out of character, has anyone experienced anything like this?

Could he be hungry, the weather (its wet here), would it be because the sec D wont stand up for himself, jeaoulsy??

I'm thinking of possible causes

 

[AmyMay]

The youngster will be at the bottom of the pecking order - and most likely to be picked on by others.

How long have they been together??

 

[yaffsimone1]

The youngster will be at the bottom of the pecking order - and most likely to be picked on by others.

How long have they been together??

The youngster went into the field for the first time on Sunday, however, they have all been getting to know each other over the fence for about 4 months.

There is a much more aggresive mare in the field who is the boss / top of pecking order and she hasnt touched the youngster

 

[AmyMay]

The youngster went into the field for the first time on Sunday, however, they have all been getting to know each other over the fence for about 4 months.

I'm sure they'll settle, but don't take for granted that they 'know' each other just because they've chatted over the fence.

Keep an eye on the situation - and if it carries on the youngster's owner may have to re-think their turn out arrangements.

 

[yaffsimone1]

I'm sure they'll settle, but don't take for granted that they 'know' each other just because they've chatted over the fence.

Keep an eye on the situation - and if it carries on the youngster's owner may have to re-think their turn out arrangements.

Mine has always been a bullied horse, this is the first yard he has lived on (he has been there since September 2011) where he is standing up for himself but today was not self defence it was bullying

Hopefully it will calm, we will see what happens tomorrow but if it continues isnt it really my responsibility to remove the offending horse?

 

[AmyMay]

Mine has always been a bullied horse, this is the first yard he has lived on (he has been there since September 2011) where he is standing up for himself but today was not self defence it was bullying

Hopefully it will calm, we will see what happens tomorrow but if it continues isnt it really my responsibility to remove the offending horse?

Your horse is not bullying - he is asserting his position over a new animal in the field, and a youngster. Typical behavior.

And no, I would not remove your horse from the field - I would remove the youngster.

 

[Wagtail]

I wouldn't risk the youngster in with him again. This kind of attack can sadly often have a tragic outcome.

We have a cob gelding at our yard that also used to be the most placid horse you could imagine. He arrived here as a four year old and settled into the herd nicely and was taken under the 'wing' of an older middle ranking mare. One day my normally placid gelding got in with them and tried to run him down, stopped only by the mare who repeatedly put herself between the two of them until I was able to remove my big gelding. Later, a new gelding arrived on the yard who I integrated with the herd. All seemed well until he too took a serious dislike to the young cob and ran him down cornering him and laying into him with his hind legs. I managed to catch the attacker and separate him. But he kept crashing through fencing to get to the young cob and finally I had to ask his owner to remove him from the yard. After this, the young cob worked his way up the pecking order until one day there was only the old mare between him and top spot. He was relentless in his persuit of her and again I had to get in there and separate them. I broke the herd up into two groups and things remained stable until a new mare arrived on the yard. I put her next to the cob's herd for two weeks and they all got on well over the fence. However, as soon as I put her in with them, the young cob ran her down, cornering her and laying into her with both back feet. Again, it was luck that a couple of us were there to intervene so her injuries were not serious. He now has to be kept in a paddock on his own. Whether it was the previous attacks he endured as a youngster that made him so aggressive, or whether the horses that attacked him recognised something in him that was not to be trusted, I don't know, but he can never be trusted in with others again as I have no doubt he would kill them. He gets on brilliantly with others over the fence, and after two years of solitary I began to think that maybe he had changed. However, only this summer, the wind had taken down a bit of fencing. I was witness to him going into the other field and promtly chasing and booting two of it's occupants that he had previously been grooming over the fence! What I am saying is be careful with your boy. Once horses show such an aggressive behaviour towards others, it will get worse. Please do not risk him in with that 18 month old again.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

My grey did put the youngster in his place...

... she never hurt him though and it was over quickly. They are now best buddies although she is the boss.

 

[Enfys]

Was the 'attack' prolonged, in that once he'd moved the youngster on he continued doing it?

Or did he stop as soon as the youngster had moved on?

What is the youngster doing now?

Is he 'giving way' to the others, yours included?

Has your boy done it again?

All these questions I know, but the answers depend really on where you go from here.

If it was merely your boy asserting himself in the ranks and it was a one off then that is quite normal.

If your chap is continuing to really harrass the youngster then I would be moving one or the other out for a bit, or permanently. It is asking for trouble to leave real harrassment unchecked.

I, personally, don't leave this sort of thing for days to sort itself out, I don't like it, I have seen some fairly awful consequences (broken legs included) and I have the facilities to juggle until I have compatible groups. The horses here are not all mine and I have a responsibility to keep them safe, and being bullied (as opposed to getting the hierachy sorted quickly) is not something I allow. I suspect that your horse was fairly low on the ladder and is now not quite as low as he thought - if you see what I mean.

Normally, I would expect the youngster to have learned his place in the ranks and to be happy to stay there.

 

[Spring Feather]

This is normal herd behaviour. The mare at the top of the pecking order won't bother about the yearling as she is confident in her status and has no fears about him taking over her place within the herd. It is almost always the bottom of the pecking order horse who will have issues with a new member. Your horse is simply making sure he remains higher than the yearling and this is his way of going about it. There's nothing odd about it and they will probably settle in a few days. Very occasionally you can have longterm problems with bottom horses in that they are very poor at communicating with a new horse they deem below them so it can come out far more aggressive than is necessary. In extreme cases I would move the bottom horse, however more often than not everything settles down within a few days.

 

[OWLIE185]

The smell of Spring won't be helping....................

 

[OWLIE185]

...and remove the back shoes to reduce the chance of injury.

 

[shortstuff99]

I think it depends on the severity of the attack. You mention that he only charged at him and pulled a face/showed teeth. Did he try to kick him? Or physically attack him in any other way? If not it sounds to me like it was a quick pecking order telling off. My mare is very dominant and will charge/kick out at horses she believes are not minding their place or if they get too close to her,but neither will she pick on one horse at all times, it's just a swift telling off until they learn their place!

 

[scarymare]

Try not to worry.

Field dynamics with youngsters are a nightmare. My now 3 year old was chased through the (electric) fence not once but twice by my gelding. Same 3 year old got turned out with 5 month old foal (with mum) and was really harsh. On Sunday (and just because of sheer circumstance nothing else), I put 6 out together (including both of those) so foaly + mum, 2 geldings and 2 and 3 year old. Perfect peace, foal has self weaned and is never with her mum now. I even saw her mum lying down sleeping (stood over by my gelding), and I haven't seen her do that in the 5 years that I've owned her. My big black cob does chase the foal with teeth (but god does she deserve it) but no chance of catching her!

They will probably sort it out for themselves. If not you'll have to think again. I currently have a mortally injured broodmare who was so protective of her field mate she was kicking out through the fence and consequently got trapped and degloved her hock. (So separating didn't work there then)

 

[AmyMay]

My big black cob does chase the foal with teeth

That I would have to put a stop to immediately I'm afraid.

 

[scarymare]

That I would have to put a stop to immediately I'm afraid.

Oh trust me you wouldn't Amymay. He's 18, true cob with 'stiffness' issues. Loves not being bottom of the pecking order. She's out of a Saddlers Hall x Sanctuary Cove (Habitat) mare by a very flashy WB. Nippy as you like. She constantly goes up and bites his bum to get him to play. Worse I've seen is a bit of a chasey or a 6 inch (literally) bunny hop. Wish I could post a pic and you'd know what I mean.

 

[Shantara]

Id keep an eye out, but i would worry too much
two of ours were very friendly over the fence, when we tried to movie them in together...they really layed into each other!
after an epic battle, they can now be turned out together fine

 

[Ladydragon]

I wouldn't risk the youngster in with him again. This kind of attack can sadly often have a tragic outcome.

Our (very submissive) yearling took an awful kick to the stifle from the field bully... And he was a bully not just asserting position... Chased her the first day and continued to do so even when she was running away with her bottom lip bobbing like crazy...

Listened to the owner who swore blind his 'little pony' was just having an off moment and wouldn't/couldn't possibly harm her as she was so much bigger and the pecking order was established... Put her back out the next day... Walking up through the field to check on them and saw him land an almighty kick right in her stifle then continue to rag her like mad even though she couldn't do more than hobble away from him... He'd opened up the joints completely and severed two of the patella ligaments... The vet only tried to treat because she was young, in good shape and so stoic... She survived by the skin of her teeth and had a rather jaw droppingly, miraculous recovery and could achieve a comfortable walk/trot and a rather ungainly canter... Unfortunately a gut torsion claimed her a few months later but I guess the moral of this rather long story is that yes, as Wagtail said, the results can be horribly tragic...

That pony was gone when we put our two year old out with the herd and their new dynamics - other than a little argy bargying there were no big dramas thankfully...

 

[Miss L Toe]

My cats fight regularly and they are litter mates, eight years old. #even in one field there can be two herds/ groups

 

[Orangehorse]

Horses will be horses, and one has to be the bottom of the heap. Mine was very much put in his place by an older mare, and is kept in second place by his pony companion, but he was completely vile to an older horse when he came to stay for a bit, even though they were great friends. They have to learn their place.

Some horses are ambitious and work their way up, others just accept where they are.
Horses being horses, and the youngster is just being kept in the rightful place.

 

[Cortez]

Not turning out mares and geldings, or widely disparate age groupings, together works best IME. Otherwise expect horses' instincts to work at full blast!

 

[Tuffles 23]

Hi my old boy has to be keeped on his own as he's really horrid he will attack and he will not stop so for my peace of mind and as i don't like huge vet bills he has his own field next to his girlfriend (who he loves to bits)
good luck as its not very nice seeing horses go at it and sometimes it is just a herd thing but i know with my horse its his way and he can't be trusted to play nice .

 

[Wagtail]

Our (very submissive) yearling took an awful kick to the stifle from the field bully... And he was a bully not just asserting position... Chased her the first day and continued to do so even when she was running away with her bottom lip bobbing like crazy...

Listened to the owner who swore blind his 'little pony' was just having an off moment and wouldn't/couldn't possibly harm her as she was so much bigger and the pecking order was established... Put her back out the next day... Walking up through the field to check on them and saw him land an almighty kick right in her stifle then continue to rag her like mad even though she couldn't do more than hobble away from him... He'd opened up the joints completely and severed two of the patella ligaments... The vet only tried to treat because she was young, in good shape and so stoic... She survived by the skin of her teeth and had a rather jaw droppingly, miraculous recovery and could achieve a comfortable walk/trot and a rather ungainly canter... Unfortunately a gut torsion claimed her a few months later but I guess the moral of this rather long story is that yes, as Wagtail said, the results can be horribly tragic...

That pony was gone when we put our two year old out with the herd and their new dynamics - other than a little argy bargying there were no big dramas thankfully...

Oh the poor poor girl. Reading this has made me extremely sad. So sorry you lost her.

 

[EstherYoung]

Our two (now sadly one) old guys are/were brilliant with the babies. Joe was very much top of the heap, but he was very patient with them. If they got in his space, he'd warn them twice with a mare-stare before following through.

'I'm coming through cos I'm a baby and I can do what the heck I want'
'Really? Look at this face'
'Don't care, can I do what I want'
'I said look at this face'
'Erm.....'
'Think about it, small child....'
'Erm, I'm backing off, I'm only a baby, I'm only a baby'

Ol has taken over his mantle and is the same. Pretty much leaves them be unless they get above their station and then explains the way things are and if that doesn't work he gets cross. But because they've had horse body language explained to them in no uncertain terms, they babies are now quite good at reading the adults.

Are there other babies in the field or is this little chap the only one? I'd be worried if the other horses were shod, or if the field was small, but if it's an unshod stable herd with enough space they'll more than likely sort themselves out. Little guy will need someone to play with though so if he can have another youngster as a friend they'll be more likely to bug each other and not the adults who no doubt think baby horses are annoying little squirts.

 

[Wagtail]

When you have experienced tragedies (my own and others) like I have, you learn to know instantly what is a normal herd behaviour and aggression and what is not. When a new gelding who had settled well with others suddenly turned on a new field mate, she was immediately removed, never to be returned to that group. I saw the horse switch into something I didn't recognise (he is normally so meek and mild) so I knew it was dangerous for the mare. Having since watched him threaten my own mare over the fence (again like something pocessed), I realised that he just cannot be trusted with mares...ever. No matter how friendly he appears over the fence.

 

[ladyt25]

To be honest I would never put a new horse in with an established herd in that short time scale. Took us 5 weeks to steadily introduce my new youngster in 2010 and even then my horse (2nd in command) went for him, seriously. He had been fine all day but then just lost it and I believe he meant to do some serious damage. We had to separate them all again over night and try again the next morning. They were fine then. To me, I'd rather take the time with introductions than risk injury but then maybe that's because my experiences with our herds over the years, having contained some very dominant leaders, has made me be ultra cautious!!

 

[Enfys]

Not turning out mares and geldings, or widely disparate age groupings, together works best IME. Otherwise expect horses' instincts to work at full blast!

Works very well for me too
The mares (usually about 12 + youngstock) range from newborns to mid 20's, but they are a very mellow and settled group.
Yearling + colts go in with some big old, seen it, been there, done it geldings who are excellent Uncles.

I'd love to have one huge group but that is never going to happen, the geldings get possessive and start herding mares about and being a general PITA, so I have smaller groups and one bossy, possessive gelding by himself (but happy to be beside the mare paddock) because he is an absolute swine to any other horse I've tried him with in the last two years. I did tell his Owner that she would be welcome to put her other horse, a mare, in with him she looked and said "Not flipping likely!" telling comment

Peaceful happy groups = happy Owners = happy me.

This is a nice settled herd where everyone knows their place:

 

[Foxhunter49]

To be honest I would never put a new horse in with an established herd in that short time scale. Took us 5 weeks to steadily introduce my new youngster in 2010 and even then my horse (2nd in command) went for him, seriously. He had been fine all day but then just lost it and I believe he meant to do some serious damage. We had to separate them all again over night and try again the next morning. They were fine then. To me, I'd rather take the time with introductions than risk injury but then maybe that's because my experiences with our herds over the years, having contained some very dominant leaders, has made me be ultra cautious!!

I agree with this 100%

Part of the reason that your horse went into attack mode could be because he is lower in the pecking order and has found something he can bully.
Usually the alpha will have one go and that is it, the lower down the order the horse is the more likely he will be extra nasty to something he can bully.

 

[Wagtail]

I agree with this 100%

Part of the reason that your horse went into attack mode could be because he is lower in the pecking order and has found something he can bully.
Usually the alpha will have one go and that is it, the lower down the order the horse is the more likely he will be extra nasty to something he can bully.

Completely agree. My mare was always low ranking (usually bottom). But if she is ever turned out with anything she can bully, she is relentless. I therefore only turn her out with higher ranking horses. She is settled now with my higher ranking gelding and is a darling.

 

[Wagtail]

Another observation I have made about low ranking horses, they are often very bargy and pushy with humans. It's as though they just want SOMEONE they can be boss of. Over the years the most troublesome biters, kickers, and bargy horses I have dealt with are usually low ranking in the herd.