palo1
Well-Known Member
Really interesting short film:
Sue Dyson - The 24 Behaviors of the Ridden Horse in Pain: Shifting the Paradigm of How We See Lameness
- Thread starter palo1
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Regandal
Well-Known Member
Interesting, sadly not uncommon ?
Chianti
Well-Known Member
I've just watched it and thought it was very interesting. It did seem amazing to me that in all the investigations the horse had no one had noticed the saddle. Also - the previous use of multiple joint injections was a bit concerning.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I watched this and applied it to one of mine who has never been the easiest. I've always thought something was underlying so applied these behaviours to a video of her and surprisingly she only had 2 of the behaviours (video says 8 plus) so maybe it is just her personality.
Guess this can work both ways.
Guess this can work both ways.
Barton Bounty
If you heard the rumours it is probably true 😂
I noticed the saddle when she was coming off a jump then being lunged! It would have been my first port of call too ?
DirectorFury
Well-Known Member
I've only managed to get halfway through it so far - please tell me that someone eventually notices that the saddle doesn't fit in the slightest!
AFAIK regular 'maintenance' injections are super common in some disciplines in the USA, to them it's just like having physio or the farrier. I do find it a bit odd but <shrug>.
holeymoley
Well-Known Member
I watched this the other day. I thought it was very good although alarming at how many treatments the horse had already had as if it that was completely normal!
SEL
Well-Known Member
I was a bit shocked by the routine joint injections as well - but then showjumpers on an old yard had the same. I had to jump through hoops with the same practice for hock injections post x ray
I do wish more vets would take a holistic approach. Rather frustrating earlier this year when I couldn't attend a lameness work up due to covid being told it had taken them 30 minutes on the lunge to get the pony to go lame so they thought I was being OTT in my concerns. I had said in advance it was more noticeable under saddle and I thought it could be related to her back. Turns out she has an old pelvic injury and KS which was probably all jarred by a field accident. That pony was showing a lot of the signs Sue discusses (& still does), but I suspect at the vets in a strange environment being whizzed around on the lunge she was full of adrenaline.
I do wish more vets would take a holistic approach. Rather frustrating earlier this year when I couldn't attend a lameness work up due to covid being told it had taken them 30 minutes on the lunge to get the pony to go lame so they thought I was being OTT in my concerns. I had said in advance it was more noticeable under saddle and I thought it could be related to her back. Turns out she has an old pelvic injury and KS which was probably all jarred by a field accident. That pony was showing a lot of the signs Sue discusses (& still does), but I suspect at the vets in a strange environment being whizzed around on the lunge she was full of adrenaline.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
They did notice the saddle.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
That video will make you paranoid. As it should, I suppose.
The Americans do love a good joint injection. I remember a few friends said I was being a lousy owner because I refused to give my horse "preventative hock injections." That is a thing! It's also a thing for some vets to start injecting joints when you have mystery lameness.
Fast-forward to this country, I asked my vet about joint injections when we diagnosed my 26-year old horse with arthritis in her hocks. He said the efficacy of that in older horses was not well proven and because it's invasive and has risks, he did not recommend it.
The Americans do love a good joint injection. I remember a few friends said I was being a lousy owner because I refused to give my horse "preventative hock injections." That is a thing! It's also a thing for some vets to start injecting joints when you have mystery lameness.
Fast-forward to this country, I asked my vet about joint injections when we diagnosed my 26-year old horse with arthritis in her hocks. He said the efficacy of that in older horses was not well proven and because it's invasive and has risks, he did not recommend it.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
The correlation of subsequent performance in a competition with pain markers during the warm up was very interesting.
Or will it just make people understand how many horses are working in pain? This is why I never tack my horses up in cross ties. If they walk away from the saddle, there's a reason. Mine walks away from being brushed, so I don't brush him. If he did the same to his tack, I wouldn't ride him.
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Or will it just make people understand how many horses are working in pain? This is why I never tack my horses up in cross ties. If they walk away from the saddle, there's a reason. Mine walks away from being brushed, so I don't brush him. If he did the same to his tack, I wouldn't ride him.
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ozpoz
Well-Known Member
A very brave owner, a great informative film. I loved the credits showing all those involved with the making of this as children - and Galina as a foal?.
PoppyAnderson
Well-Known Member
Its not just Americans who love a joint injection. I could tell you about a yard in cheshire that has a specialist vet there once a month to inject joints and it's just a conveyor belt of horses coming in all day to be treated.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Good Lord.
Wizpop
Well-Known Member
I think it’s quite”acceptable” for a lot of dressage horses to have them as a matter of course in this country too.
Lois Lame
Well-Known Member
That video was so incredibly well made. I don't know what else to say. Bit lost for words.
palo1
Well-Known Member
There was a lot that was interesting in the film. For me the thing that shouted right from the word go was that the owner, in spite of clearly wanting her horse's interests to be front and centre, continued to medicate and persevere in training when there were so many signals of something being amiss. I am not being critical; it just indicates how much of a hole we can get into without sort of acknowledging it, especially where medication becomes culturally more routine/preventative. I know that is why the horse was under Sue Dyson in fact and the owner was really frank and quite brave to feature in the film. The correlation between pain behaviours and successful competition was interesting as was the extent of lameness/difficulty the horse was experiencing. I did not find it easy to 'see' all of the features of that without the film though the behaviour of the horse clearly indicated things were not going particularly well. The diagnostic process was really interesting and useful too and showed me how vital the role of an experienced and thoughtful vet is! I know Sue Dyson has been discredited for some research but the film really engaged and impressed me.
Regandal
Well-Known Member
palo1, where did you find the video?
Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
Sadly here (UK) in some places the showjumpers box the horses for regular joint injections - for those going monthly they do them on the box, don't even bother to unload
Jab and go !
The link to going clear XC is really interesting if that is statistically valid.
She's fascinating but didn't she get struck off for making up research which has sadly discredited a lot of what she did? Or did that get overturned.
Not saying this isn't really interesting and we could and should all look for more subtle signs of issues.
Jab and go !
The link to going clear XC is really interesting if that is statistically valid.
She's fascinating but didn't she get struck off for making up research which has sadly discredited a lot of what she did? Or did that get overturned.
Not saying this isn't really interesting and we could and should all look for more subtle signs of issues.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Sue Dyson was struck off for faking an Ethics approval letter for the rider weight research. Nothing she has done has invalidated any of her findings. It was an utterly stupid administrative fraud.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I found the grooming and tacking up very hard to bear. The horse couldn't have been screaming "PLEASE don't do that! " any louder but she was just being ignored.
I also thought that it showed the dangers of medicating joints to continue to compete at a high level. The joints may have been pain free but the suspensories were breaking down.
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Some horses will do anything to avoid showing lameness at the vets which is why I always get the vet to come to us in the first instance for subtle problems .
If I want to be sure I work the horse and then tie it up until the vets gets here that’s often the best way to get a subtle issue to show .
palo1
Well-Known Member
Regandal
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes. I would not be riding a horse that demonstrated such discomfort or stress at being groomed/tacked up. But if we are in a place where, culturally, cross ties and 'highly strung' behaviours are considered normal, it would be easy to mis or misinterpret the horse's clear signals that all is not well. The veterinary procedures that the horse had had previously would probably work in a 'functionally sound' model of horse management - where vets and owners recognise that there may be issues but the horse is effectively sound enough on one level to continue. That is a model that exists here too. I understand the driver for that but the implications of constant, exhaustive diagnostics when a horse is showing generalised discomfort would make any kind of horse owning incredibly difficult which I struggle with. Having said that, it would be relatively easy to educate horse owners so that those pain behaviours could be investigated simply and cheaply on presentation. I have a horse that has only ever walked away from the bridle when he has had a problem. I have another whose indications of stress are so subtle that he virtually has to be at death's door before any of the pain/stress behaviours would be exhibited so it's not clear cut.
RachelFerd
Well-Known Member
I was a rider/assistant for Sue back in 2012/2013 at the Animal Health Trust and got to be involved in the end to end process of diagnosing and treating horses hundreds of horses following this system while I was there. It was genuinely one of the most fascinating jobs that I have ever had.
paddi22
Well-Known Member
oh wow, that must have been fascinating!
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
A lot of horses must get routine injections, how else are eventers still going well into their teens? Whereas in the past they were retired at around 13/14. If it isn't against the rules then riders will take advantage of anything to keep their good horses going.
When I read an event rider's autobiography I was interested to see that the largest budget item was veterinary care.
It is an interesting study though.
When I read an event rider's autobiography I was interested to see that the largest budget item was veterinary care.
It is an interesting study though.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I don't have an arena here and a muddy field wasn't popular with the vet! For the pony the issue started to show up in her hind feet (she was barefoot then) & that didn't really make a connection with the vet. I'm waffling on to them about sideways growing frogs and the vet was saying she was a bit tentative over stones. Stones were the least of her issues.
For the horse in the video I have respect for the owner putting herself out in public with the assessment. She was obviously aware the grooming and tacking up behaviours weren't happy ones and I thought it was brave to show the warts and all situation. I also thought she held it together well when Sue told her the mare's show jumping career was likely to be over. We've all been there with crushed dreams.
Reacher
Well-Known Member
Thankyou for posting OP
Yes I thought the owner was very brave (I blubbed on her behalf when Sue told her the mare’s SJ career was over!).
Yes the horse had had a lot of procedures but the owner is very young and would have been acting on the advice of the professionals. (I’m a lot older and regret having a procedure done at the expert’s recommendation (skin not lameness related))
These markers need to be known by owners, trainers and vets so they are automatically run through as a checklist - even if no obvious problems are present .
Yes I thought the owner was very brave (I blubbed on her behalf when Sue told her the mare’s SJ career was over!).
Yes the horse had had a lot of procedures but the owner is very young and would have been acting on the advice of the professionals. (I’m a lot older and regret having a procedure done at the expert’s recommendation (skin not lameness related))
These markers need to be known by owners, trainers and vets so they are automatically run through as a checklist - even if no obvious problems are present .