Supervet....

[PucciNPoni]

I have avoided watching his programme for the most part and the snippets I've caught here and there have left me feeling uneasy. Not because of what he does is groundbreaking and new - that part I think is great. But he comes across to me as showboating a bit. It reminds me of the early days of Caesar Milan.

Aru, I read your post with a lot of interest - and I appreciate your POV on this matter. Our orthopaedic vet from our practice went to one of his seminars as well, and mean to ask him his thoughts.

People are funny, and their reactions to this sort of thing are varied. Some think that getting their dog's hair cut is an unnecessary expense and yet groomers do a lot to establish bond and routine within the pet/owner relationship and are front line in finding health related issues for vets to fix and yet we still get grief for highlighting problems. Sorry, I'm digressing a bit. But my point was to say that some owners will never want to know about their dog's health problems and even something like a broken leg they're funny about getting fixed. A man came in to our practice with a wee dog with a broken leg, wanted to know if surgery would 100% be guaranteed to fix it. How is anything medical ever 100%? But parting with £1500 to £2k on an uninsured pup was a big deal for him. So suggesting a £10k operation on a hip op for a malamute which will be bloody difficult to rest properly for recovery, hmmm, it seems unreasonable to me.

 

[Thistle]

You have to remember we only get to see what the TV producers choose. Ground breaking operations make good TV, especially if life hangs in balance. Dead dogs and cats do not make good TV.

A programme showing repeated owners advised to PTS would never work!

 

[AmyMay]

I think the man's amazing.

 

[Montyforever]

The dog that had all 4 legs operated on made me cringe, totally unfair on the poor dog! Especially when the cancerous lump was found.
Really like Noel, and his obvious dedication to the job is incredible. I would trust him 100% with any of my animals. But think he does need to learn to say no to over emotional owners sometimes!
Makes you really question where the morally right/wrong line is!

 

[Sandstone1]

There was a deerhound on the programe a couple of weeks ago, it had broken its neck. Noel Fitzpatrick was very blunt with the owners and I think he doubted the outcome himself.
However they went ahead with the op and the dog made a great recovery.
He was almost in tears at one point because he thought he was too tired to do the op and was not sure it was right to do it as he was not convinced it would work.
The dog now lives a normal life.
If you never try you will never know.
I'm not sure I agree with everything he does but he does do some amazing work.

 

[Cyrus]

A friend of mine had a double hip replacement on her malamute boy done by Noel (before the TV stuff came about) and he recovered exceptionally well and has a great quality of life doing all the things her other malamutes do which he didn't get to do before

 

[Clodagh]

I haven't watched last nights yet but generally I enjoy the program. I think he is incredible - and oh boy that voice! - and this series has been more balanced, the GSD was PTS and then the poor bulldog. I felt he didn't encourage the bulldogs owners at all to have the op.
Some things make me uncomfortable and are further than I would go. The lurcher/wolfhound with the broken neck was in agony, how far had the owners driven with it like that for him to operate? I would have got my OH to shoot it where it lay. Then it was amazing that it went on to make such a good recovery. How long before arthritis set in though?

 

[Penny Less]

The bull dog this week and the one last week were incredibly overweight, which wouldn't help with a dog with leg problems.
I do find sometimes that Noel comes across as a bit of a "how wonderful I am" type, but that may be due to editing etc. He does try to tell the owners that they should Put the dog etc to sleep but sometimes they wont be told. When the ops work it is wonderful, but like with the bulldog all the ops it was put through I don't feel was right

 

[ester]

He did strongly encourage the GSD owners to PTS too, there are a few more of the animals that I would just chop the legs off of than he does, there was a terrier with an amputated foot with a new implant the other week and you could barely tell. I was surprised they didn't PTS the deerhound that was paralysed from an accident with a broken neck but I think she came out of it really well in the end but agree clodagh I would have wanted to PTS her asap. I do think he sort of says well this is what we can try, it will mean xyz but the decision is up to you, and it is difficult when you are not sure that very emotionally involved owners are in the right place/have enough knowledge to make it.

I wanted to chop some of Frank's willy off (cancer issue) but the vet wouldn't :eek3: .

 

[0310Star]

I think the man's amazing.

This.

 

[Sandstone1]

I think a lot of what he does is amazing. Yes maybe at times the animal would be better pts, but as said before if you don't try you don't know. If the end result is a animal that has a normal happy pain free life surely it's worth it?
I think to call him an idiot and say what he does is rubbish is very unfair.
I doubt the owners of animals he's helped would agree.
However every one is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[{97702}]

I have avoided watching his programme for the most part and the snippets I've caught here and there have left me feeling uneasy. Not because of what he does is groundbreaking and new - that part I think is great. But he comes across to me as showboating a bit. It reminds me of the early days of Caesar Milan.
.

You have to remember we only get to see what the TV producers choose. Ground breaking operations make good TV, especially if life hangs in balance. Dead dogs and cats do not make good TV.

A programme showing repeated owners advised to PTS would never work!

Some good points here - and in Aru's and other posts which would have made my reply a bit long if I'd quoted them all - however I stand by my thoughts that if he was a good vet with the interests of the animals at heart he would not find it necessary to have a programme made showing what a star he is. Showboating is a really good way of putting it - just get on and do the job mate, quit all the histrionics that you seem to find necessary

And whilst I will repeat again that I recognise there is no progress without pushing the boundaries, some of the things I saw on the one episode last night made me feel very uncomfortable. I thought they did not put the welfare of the animal concerned first, which is totally unacceptable.

 

[{97702}]

I think a lot of what he does is amazing. Yes maybe at times the animal would be better pts, but as said before if you don't try you don't know. If the end result is a animal that has a normal happy pain free life surely it's worth it?
I think to call him an idiot and say what he does is rubbish is very unfair.
I doubt the owners of animals he's helped would agree.
However every one is entitled to their own opinion.

To be pedantic, I said the programme was rubbish not what he does....perhaps I didn't make that clear enough though

 

[ester]

And whilst I will repeat again that I recognise there is no progress without pushing the boundaries, some of the things I saw on the one episode last night made me feel very uncomfortable. I thought they did not put the welfare of the animal concerned first, which is totally unacceptable.

But very subjective.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Im on the fence with this one Levrier, in his defence He would have been approached to do the programme not the other way round I feel.

The Bulldog who was grossly fat and already had arthritis having all his legs operated on and cancer in the mix as well, even if I was a lottery winner there is no way I would put my dog through this. All the ops were a success but how long before arthritis sets in again.

 

[melbiswas]

He operated on my Mother's Springer over 10 years ago when she broke her neck after being run-over.
I remember my Mother saying he seemed very big headed but he didn't push her into having the op done, just presented the facts. It was very complex and we all had doubts, esp as she was uninsured and struggling financially.
The outcome was impressive I have to say and the dog has led a happy, active life but she had very early onset and severe arthritis. He had warned this would probably be the case.
At the time he was really pleased that she could turn her neck to some degree at a follow up appointment and I thought then, should you operate if you think a dog will be that impaired still ?

 

[Yellow_Ducky]

Yes it was the Malamute. I can't even remember what the poor dog had done now but I think the owners were away (or something like that).

When they spoke to the owners, they said at least half a dozen times we don't want / can't afford the surgery and to put the dog to sleep. They were effectively bullied into surgery for that dog and that is just so wrong.

I am pretty sure in this case the owners chose PTS as they didn't have the funds - Noel then offered to do the surgery for free and the owners agreed. Or was it a different case? I know of one that he did do for free as the dog had a really good prognosis and he didn't want money to be the sole reason that the dog didn't get a good chance at life.
I think he seems totally dedicated to his patients and I really enjoy the show.

 

[misst]

I am in two minds sometimes but the guy is amazing. He saved my JRT when I was going to PTS because my vet could not find the problem. He did not operate and was brutally honest about the fact that as a short legged little thing who was quite timid she would not cope with 3 legs. She is fab now! My sons JRT (parsons type) also went there and had 3 discs which were causing her horrible pain. Again no op but given steroid injections and physio and rehab - she is also fab now.

Noel phoned me at 10.30 at night to give me results from my dogs MRI as he had promised to call that day. He goes above and beyond for owners and I never felt that he was there just for me or just for my dog. He treated us as a unit! Both times we have used the practice I have never felt pressured to have excessive treatment or that I was being ripped off at an time.

My bugbear with the program is that I wish they would show more failures - there are plenty in the waiting room who are back because things are not great. I also agree they need to show more euthanasia cases and show him encouraging people to put the dog first more often - but I think while this does happen it does not make good TV.....

Overall I think he is amazing and he is a very interesting and brilliant character. I will always be grateful to him.

 

[Aru]

Ethics are a funny business as they are incredibly subjective and personal.Everyone has a different stage at where they will draw the line....and at the end of the day its the owners choice.vets are expected to offer all the option but the final call is the dogs owners.
but if the boundaries of what is possible are never pushed medicine will never advance...in humans we practice and make our mistakes on lab animals first and althought their are strict ethical standards now it is a fact of life that we use animals for our own medical advancments..so why shouldnt animals see the benifits of aome of the reaserch that has been done if they have dedicated owners willing to give it a chance...To get to the stage of advancement we are at risks were taken.The first peron left to stew in a plaster of paris cast in the spainish war never had an idea of the advancement that it would bring to orthopedics in the long run...but a risk was taken and it worked out..

The tv show is just that.A show.its a business in itself and only the most exciting surgerys or particularly fun charactors/personalities are displayed. It has to be taken with a pinch of salt as it will have been heavily edited.however the shows existance is helping in its own way.It is also both a very good educational tool that gives owners a broader idea of what sort of treatments are now availiable to their pets and a very obvious marketing tool for noel.of course it increases his profit margins ot reaches a wide audience and he owns a referral hospital where bills have to be paid....why should that be considered a negative thing.veterinary is a business.

Has anyone mentioned the fact hes about to open a new cancer referral hospital yet?thats probably going to be a lot more controversial than his orthopedics.......

 

[ester]

I don't always understand why he seems to end up doing planned ops in the middle of the night quite so much .

 

[Dobiegirl]

I don't always understand why he seems to end up doing planned ops in the middle of the night quite so much .

I thought that too ester, he is driven and dedicated, but he isnt the only one doing the ops, if it had been an emergency rta I could understand operating at 10.30pm at night.

 

[gunnergundog]

I thought that too ester, he is driven and dedicated, but he isnt the only one doing the ops, if it had been an emergency rta I could understand operating at 10.30pm at night.

It's likely that the true emergencies that come in unscheduled take priority and that the scheduled work gets pushed back. I know with my vets that due to a RTA the other week a dog of mine admitted for a routine procedure was pushed back to late evening.

 

[ester]

I know that does happen quite a lot, but I am surprised that the scheduled work isn't pushed back until the next day rather than operating at 3 am.

 

[PucciNPoni]

I know that does happen quite a lot, but I am surprised that the scheduled work isn't pushed back until the next day rather than operating at 3 am.

Because its not as exciting for TV? Sorry, that's the cynic in me.

Our e-vets do surgery in the middle of the night, generally ex-laps - sometimes C-sections but I think most of the ortho stuff is done the next day. However I will concede that the ortho stuff we do won't be nearly as in depth as the stuff the supervet does.

 

[dingle12]

Noel Fitzpatrick is one of the groundbreaking surgeons of this era and is pushing veterinary medicine into a new a new level of progress.

I was at a conference lately where he was the main speaker.He is one of the most inspirational people I have ever met.
He went above and beyond his time allocated in order to try and fit in as much teaching as he could.He started lectures early on sunday and worked overtime both days as he had an interested audience and had so much he wanted to cover and teach.
Most of the surgerys he was discussing will not be done as standard practice Ireland for another 10 years(at best) but he still wanted to explain them and show the options and raise the bar in the standard of care that can be provided and is possible within vet med. His developments and standards of care make the options and standards I work in daily seem third world....and my practice is relatively progressive for my location.
He is doing groundbreaking operations, a hugh amount of research project's and developing new inovations and techniques.....and he does it at great cost to himself.He is married to that practice and obsessed about work.If it was all about the money he could make plenty without pushing for progress.

He can justify the surgeries he does to himself and has quite strict ethical standards.If the dog will face no good quality of life post recovery from surgery he will not recommend it.Yes he does recommend PTS in cases where there is no hope. It took him a very long time to convince the tv programmers to film a euthanasia and show the other side of the coin.He's been fighting to have one in there for a long time but it likely wouldn't make popular tv so was out until this season.

The real question is how long are people willing to see an animal in recovery for?Dogs cannot consent their owners must do so for them. Is a few weeks of confinement and physio while on strong pain meds completely wrong if the dog goes on to live a healthy and happy life for years after?
where so you draw the line? I would undergo surgery if I knew it would save me from paralysis/remove pain/improve quality of life ....why shouldnt my dog be offered the same chance when the knowledge and the skill required to perform it is there.

Yes the ops we are seeing on the show are somewhat overhyped but the work he is doing is groundbreaking and deserves a chance to be shown to the world. He had a spinal dog standing and able to walk within 48 hours of surgery!thats mind-blowing compared to the norm!The show helps to illustrate the options that are out there.It lets people know there are possibilities in what may seem like hopeless cases.

Why is an animals life less worthy of treatment then a humans? no one would bat an eyelid at the idea of humans having joint replacements for a better quality of life...dogs were used as research guinea pigs for joint replacements 30 years ago in order to advance human medicine.Noel is one of the few people offering dogs this option of surgery and of pain free life in canines now,30 years later.

Complications are a risk with every surgery....but if you look at the stats and success rates that he is having in some of his complex surgerys and compare it to routine similar lower cost surgeries done in run of the mill vet practices you would be shocked.His standard's of care are exceptional,his pain management excellent and rates of complications are NOT statistically high considering the type of surgeries he is doing.

Would I do everything he has done.No I wouldnt. But I would like the option to be available to my pet if she could benefit from it. Yes I would. Advancement doesn't happen easily. There are casualties in ever new advancement as techniques are refined....but without trying we will never get progress and improvement in standards.

We need more noel fitzpatricks!The tv show is showing only the very tip of the iceberg of what he is doing. If I lived in England and had a serious orthopaedic or neuro issue with my own dog I would not hesitate in using his services. Hell if my dog went off her back legs tomorrow but could be transported I would seriously consider making the trip to the UK.

Agree

 

[dingle12]

I last week sadly had to put one of my dogs to sleep because she had lost feeling in her back end. I sadly didn't have the funds to do an MRI scan and if she had been insured I would of gone to Noel.

 

[ester]

I did feel it was quite likely that he finds he works better at those sort of times too, not sure about the rest of the staff though .

 

[Winters100]

I so agree - he is an amazing vet who gave my 50kg mix breed dog years of happy pain free life by replacing both of his hips. They were done in 2011 and today you would never know that he had any problem at all. It is amazing to me that so many people here comment on the cost. Why do they care what I spend my money on? Would they prefer that I upgraded my car rather than give my dog a pain free life? Buy a few designer handbags perhaps? I simply cannot take seriously the accusation that owners were bullied into surgery and influenced by the presence of the cameras. One of our check ups was during filming and there was a clear sign at the reception asking you to mention if you did not want to be filmed. I asked not to be on camera and at no time was it mentioned further. I would also say that although many surgeries have a long recovery period this is not necessarily a terrible time for the dogs. It took about a year to get my boy totally over the 2 surgeries but apart from a few days immediately post op he was able to walk fine and within a few weeks was totally pain free and walking very well. Of course we had to be careful for a long time to avoid any damage, but not being able to race around is not torture for the dog - just meant we should keep him calm and walk on the leash. Personally I was so happy to have the option to see someone of this standard and with such good facilities. I don't live in the UK and my vet did a lot of research to find the very best place in Europe. It was well worth the 2000 km round trip (which we did many times) to give my dog the life he has now.

 

[Winters100]

"Double hip replacement on a malamute cost 10 grand"

What does the cost have to do with it? My dog had double hip replacement and given the standard of care that he received it was amazingly good value for money. Is there something else that you would prefer me to spend my money on? Some new handbags perhaps?

 

[PucciNPoni]

"Double hip replacement on a malamute cost 10 grand"

What does the cost have to do with it? My dog had double hip replacement and given the standard of care that he received it was amazingly good value for money. Is there something else that you would prefer me to spend my money on? Some new handbags perhaps?

Brilliant that you HAVE 10k to spend on your dog.

Personally I would have no option but to PTS at that cost, it simply would not be an option. It's not that I can't afford care for my animals. We have a good standard of living and spend a rather lot on our animals.

I'm not sure why you think that it might be more preferable to others to spend it on a frivolous purchase such as handbags. But for some people that 10k might be food/rent/utilities for a year or more. It's half a year's salary for a reasonably well paid person. It's a hell of a lot of money. I think that's the shock of it for some of us.