Suspect torn ACL in large old dog:(

[Winters100]

Hi Everyone,
I would appreciate a little advice on this. 4 days ago my 50kg (but slim) 12 year old mix breed (leanberger/GS/Bernese Mountain dog probably) was lame. It coincided with a change in the weather and we know that he has arthritis so I gave him Metacam for a couple of days and he was better, only very slightly stiff. Last night he went outside, suddenly yelped and came back very lame on one of his rear legs. I was taking shopping from the car so did not see what happened, but he was close to me and not running or playing. We took him to the only night vet in our area, it is not a practice that I like, and to be honest it was a complete waste of time. They simply told me to give metacam and tramadol and see what happens, despite that we had called in advance and asked if they could make x-rays. I am waiting for a recommendation from my horse vet for a really good orthopedic vet for dogs, but I don't know that we will get an appointment today, and even if we do I need to think very carefully before agreeing to any invasive treatment.

The dog has a history or orthopedic problems, and as a young dog had both hips replaced (10 years ago). We have since then kept him going by keeping him slim and fit, and he has a good quality of life in general. This however is a massive problem, and I feel that I would need to think very carefully before putting a dog of this age through a surgery. As he was a mix that we found in the street when he was a puppy we do not know his breed, so we cannot say what life expectancy should be, but I am guessing that he is sadly towards the end of his life given his size. That having been said he is (or was before this) so good in himself, happy to go on walks etc, so I do not want to give up on him if he can have some more years of quality life.

He has been examined by a human doctor, an orthopedic consultant, who suspects torn ACL, but of course this needs to be confirmed.

Does anyone have similar experience? What did you do and how did it work out?

Thanks in advance.
Winters

 

[twiggy2]

I wouldn't operate on a dog that has compromise hips and joints for cruciate surgery.
My vets have always been able to diagnose cruciate rupture without xrays as the joint is unstable

 

[Mynstrel]

I have read in the past about non-surgical solutions for ACL problems which apparently work. Maybe do some googling and see what you can find, it might be useless but equally it may give you another option.

 

[Bellasophia]

I had a 52 kg ,really fit dogue de Bordeaux mastiff.

She ruptured her ACL at age one,repaired successfully until,she re ruptured the same ligament at three years .
We flew her back from USA to Italy ,to redo the surgery,but she died from an embolism the day after the surgery.
Given the advanced age and similar size of your large breed dog ,I would not recommend surgery for him.The recovery is very hard on both the dog and you….eg you would have to use slings for get him outside for his hygiene.needs.Exhausting to say the least,every few hours.
The recovery / restricted excercise period is a couple of months.. maybe longer in such a big dog.
Without an op, if he responds to anti inflammatories and rest,you could try this and use the time to accept he is on his last mission.
Twelve years is an exceptional age for his breeding..I’d say hug him,love him and prepare to let him go when it’s obvious the meds are no longer keeping him pain free.

 

[skinnydipper]

Hi Everyone,
I would appreciate a little advice on this. 4 days ago my 50kg (but slim) 12 year old mix breed (leanberger/GS/Bernese Mountain dog probably) was lame. It coincided with a change in the weather and we know that he has arthritis so I gave him Metacam for a couple of days and he was better, only very slightly stiff. Last night he went outside, suddenly yelped and came back very lame on one of his rear legs. I was taking shopping from the car so did not see what happened, but he was close to me and not running or playing. We took him to the only night vet in our area, it is not a practice that I like, and to be honest it was a complete waste of time. They simply told me to give metacam and tramadol and see what happens, despite that we had called in advance and asked if they could make x-rays. I am waiting for a recommendation from my horse vet for a really good orthopedic vet for dogs, but I don't know that we will get an appointment today, and even if we do I need to think very carefully before agreeing to any invasive treatment.

The dog has a history or orthopedic problems, and as a young dog had both hips replaced (10 years ago). We have since then kept him going by keeping him slim and fit, and he has a good quality of life in general. This however is a massive problem, and I feel that I would need to think very carefully before putting a dog of this age through a surgery. As he was a mix that we found in the street when he was a puppy we do not know his breed, so we cannot say what life expectancy should be, but I am guessing that he is sadly towards the end of his life given his size. That having been said he is (or was before this) so good in himself, happy to go on walks etc, so I do not want to give up on him if he can have some more years of quality life.

He has been examined by a human doctor, an orthopedic consultant, who suspects torn ACL, but of course this needs to be confirmed.

Does anyone have similar experience? What did you do and how did it work out?

Thanks in advance.
Winters

If it is torn ACL, you could ask your vet about conservative management for dogs who are not suitable candidates for surgery. More specifically - custom stifle orthotics (knee brace).

ETA. Something like this https://orthopets.com/products/dog-knee-brace/

 

[sbloom]

Our Dane went undiagnosed for a week despite a vet visit the day after he went lame and it definitely impacted on his treatment and prognosis, the experienced surgeon was of the "it's unstable" school of thought and said it was a no brainer, the regular vet and one bodyworker weren't sure.

Edited to add - just clocked yours is ACL, this was CCL.

 

[fankino04]

I'm another who wouldn't put a dog of that age through an op and extensive recovery period, he may well be fit and happy in himself at the moment but old age can catch up with them quickly sometimes and I wouldn't want to restrict him so much in what could end up being his final 6 months or so, I would definitely look into the brace etc though x

 

[rara007]

ACL is very rare in dogs, CCL unfortunately very common.
I wouldn’t be rushing anything, even the X-rays I’d wait a bit of time for, we never do them overnight and usually not even same week unless there’s a routine gap. You don’t want to sit on it weeks but you don’t want to rush into anything either. Surgery is not something to be undertaken lightly so you really need to be sure that’s the best option.

 

[splashgirl45]

my lurcher was diagnosed with hip arthritis at 12 yrs 10months, i would not have put her through surgery and we tried pain relief, i didnt see any improvement and decided that as her quality of life was diminished and having experienced hip arthritis myself i decided to let her go just before her 13th birthday...if you can find medication that works its worth trying but IMO surgery on a big dog at 12 may not be the best option. its hard to decide when they are older. good luck

 

[Winters100]

Thanks for all your advice. I have decided to give him a couple of days and see where he is by Monday. We will certainly see an orthopedic vet, and of course I will listen to their advice and take it into consideration, but I am looking for them to alleviate the symptoms and am certain that I will not allow him to be operated. He has been the most wonderful friend to me for 12 years, has been there for me through some really traumatic times, when without is waggy tail and wet nose I would not have got up in the morning, and I owe him quality of life, and a painless end when this is no longer possible. I can't stop crying just thinking about it, but I will not allow him to suffer. My gut feeling is that we will be able to medicate, but we will probably only be able to keep him comfortable for some months, and then we must let him go on his way.

We have an amazing company who made a back brace for him in the past when he had a problem, and they can make a made to measure support for him, hopefully this will help to keep him comfortable. Dogs bring so much to our lives, but truly losing them breaks our hearts, I know it sounds absurd but I find it hard to imagine life without him.

 

[splashgirl45]

i still have my lurcher in my heart and see her every day as she is my screensaver on my laptop, you will always have him in your memories..

 

[smiggy]

I think you are taking the right approach. My big concern in an older large breed dog would be that during the recovery period , the increased strain on the other hind leg would cause the crucial ligament in that one to rupture, that’s seen quite commonly.
a good analgesia regime and period of strict rest will go a long way.

 

[Boulty]

Think you're thinking along sensible lines. Definitely worth a visit to an ortho vet to get a more definite diagnosis. If you're not keen on surgery due to age & history then they might be able to point you in the direction of a good physio who can help get as much function back in the leg as possible after the initial rest period. Would also ask if hydrotherapy might help down the line. I guess prognosis of how well conservative management is likely to work would depend on exactly what the injury is

 

[Winters100]

Thanks all. I think someone is watching over him because it turns out that my OH who is a human orthopedic surgeon previously treated the wife of one of the best small animal orthopedic vets here - he has agreed to start early on Monday to see us at 7-30am. I am hoping that he can help us with a plan to manage this and get my poor boy comfortable. In the meantime poor lad is not doing well, can manage to go out to relieve himself but obviously not comfortable

 

[fiwen30]

I’m very sorry to hear this.

Small, lightweight dogs can sometimes have the joint stabilise through scar tissue(?) after a long period of incredibly strict cage rest, but then the flip side of that is the muscle wastage which comes from long confinement. Non-surgical options really aren’t a great solution for cruciates, and aren’t recommended anymore. Braces can be used as a stop-gap, but if surgery is the going to be the route taken then a brace can often cause more harm than good, due to the dog compensating through other areas of their body.

TPLO or TTA surgeries are the only solutions for ruptured cruciates, and dogs regain the full use of the joint post-op, if the recovery & rehab is undertaken properly.

We had a TPLO for our 10 year old, 20kg, dog in February, and he has recovered perfectly. But there’s also the worry about the 2nd leg - while we’re saving for the op just in case, if it ruptures in a year or so when he’s older I would definitely think twice about it because the rehabbing period is very difficult.

Wishing you the very best, whatever route you decide to take.

 

[Winters100]

I would definitely think twice about it because the rehabbing period is very difficult.

Wishing you the very best, whatever route you decide to take.

Thanks, it is good to hear that your dog recovered, and I hope that you will have good luck and not need to operate the other leg. Unfortunately for us I don't really see surgery as an option. It is not because of the difficulty of the recovery period for the humans, because actually we can for sure manage it as there is always someone home, everyone loves him and would pitch in. Even when I was on my own I saw him through 2 hip replacements, and although each time I slept next to him on the floor during the recovery period we managed just fine. It is more because with such a limited remaining life span I just don't think it would be worth it for him. His hip replacements were done 10 years 3 months, and 9 years 7 months ago, so it was worth it for a decade of pain free hips. I don't know what a surgery now would give him, but for sure it would be months and not years from getting through the recovery period, and I just can't do that to him Today he is really unhappy, has not yet been out to pee and needs a sling under him as support when he gets up. I don't know what will happen, but unless the vet tells us that we can expect some quick recovery then I think the writing is on the table, because he cannot go on like this.

 

[Ratface]

Winters 100. I'm so sorry about the circumstances you and your beloved old dog find yourselves in. You are a compassionate and experienced animal keeper.
I'm confident that you will ensure that your dog meets a calm and pain-free end.

 

[fankino04]

Thanks, it is good to hear that your dog recovered, and I hope that you will have good luck and not need to operate the other leg. Unfortunately for us I don't really see surgery as an option. It is not because of the difficulty of the recovery period for the humans, because actually we can for sure manage it as there is always someone home, everyone loves him and would pitch in. Even when I was on my own I saw him through 2 hip replacements, and although each time I slept next to him on the floor during the recovery period we managed just fine. It is more because with such a limited remaining life span I just don't think it would be worth it for him. His hip replacements were done 10 years 3 months, and 9 years 7 months ago, so it was worth it for a decade of pain free hips. I don't know what a surgery now would give him, but for sure it would be months and not years from getting through the recovery period, and I just can't do that to him Today he is really unhappy, has not yet been out to pee and needs a sling under him as support when he gets up. I don't know what will happen, but unless the vet tells us that we can expect some quick recovery then I think the writing is on the table, because he cannot go on like this.

Really feel for you in this situation but what you have written here is exactly how I would feel and 100% the best thing for the dog, sending lots of hugs to you both x

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I'm sorry you are in this position but would be thinking along the same lines as you if the dog were mine.

 

[Nicnac]

So sorry. Friend's BMD has just had second CCL done, she's 7. It's a big op with the subsequent crate rest and extremely limited exercise taking months to complete successfully.

A 12 yo is very different - beautiful dog and tough decision but I agree with you 100%.

 

[fiwen30]

Thanks, it is good to hear that your dog recovered, and I hope that you will have good luck and not need to operate the other leg. Unfortunately for us I don't really see surgery as an option. It is not because of the difficulty of the recovery period for the humans, because actually we can for sure manage it as there is always someone home, everyone loves him and would pitch in. Even when I was on my own I saw him through 2 hip replacements, and although each time I slept next to him on the floor during the recovery period we managed just fine. It is more because with such a limited remaining life span I just don't think it would be worth it for him. His hip replacements were done 10 years 3 months, and 9 years 7 months ago, so it was worth it for a decade of pain free hips. I don't know what a surgery now would give him, but for sure it would be months and not years from getting through the recovery period, and I just can't do that to him Today he is really unhappy, has not yet been out to pee and needs a sling under him as support when he gets up. I don't know what will happen, but unless the vet tells us that we can expect some quick recovery then I think the writing is on the table, because he cannot go on like this.

I’m so, so sorry. I would be thinking the same in your position, if our boy was a year or 2 down the line when/if the 2nd leg goes - don’t think I could put a dog of that age through the surgery and recovery period.

 

[Winters100]

As an update we saw the orthopedic vet this morning and sadly he had bone cancer. The original plan was to have the diagnosis confirmed by a biopsy, but I was in the room while this was done, and the very soft bone / excessive bleeding made it obvious. When I asked the vet if he had any doubt about the diagnosis, or if he thought that there was any chance for a reasonable quality of life, the answer to both was no, so I asked them to euthanize him rather than waking him up.

I am heartbroken to have lost the best friend I will ever have, but happy that until less than a week ago he was full of life and going for long walks every day, so at least he did not endure months of suffering.

So all I can say is give belly scratches every day, you never know when it will be the last one x

 

[fankino04]

So sorry for your loss, I try to hold onto the fact that less than a week before noodle was PTS she was still jogging down the road on her walk and playfully meeting her friends in the park. Vet said the pain was arthritis but it escalated so quickly and given her rapidly rising ALP levels I suspect she may have had bone cancer too but she was to old to have gone through treatment even if it was diagnosed. Sending love and hugs x

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I am so sorry for your loss. Our 6 yr old Rottweiler had been poorly for less than 24hrs (although hindsight can spot a few mild signs/symptoms prior to that) when she had to be pts on the operating table when they found that her bowel cancer was inoperable. At least we can make that choice for our pets,thank goodness!

 

[Clodagh]

I’m so sorry.

 

[skinnydipper]

I'm sorry that it was not better news and that you lost your friend today.

 

[Jeni the dragon]

I'm so sorry. Take care of yourself.

 

[fiwen30]

What a shock, I am so sorry. Thinking of you and yours at this time.xx

 

[splashgirl45]

so sorry that todays news wasnt better. you have done the right thing for your old friend... as i lost my collie suddenly i know what a shock it is, i thought i was prepared but turns out i wasnt!!! look after yourself and try and remember the good times, hugs xx

 

[Lou27]

So sorry for the loss of your friend x