Sycamore trees do kill!

[orionstar]

Unfortunately good grazing as stated in the article is not always assurance that the horses wont eat them. A friend lost a young pony two years ago to this in the field with my youngster the same age and my older horse, neither of which were affected, and they were in there to eat off the grass, but the pony obviously developed a taste for them, and it was the first time we had heard of it. We have taken steps to cut down some trees, but they are very prevalent and we're working on it, but TBH removing them all is not an option. The onset is extremely quick. I checked the horses one night, rode and went home, then returned from work the next day to find the pony had collapsed during the day brought in and received veterinary treatment, but then it was sadly PTS the next day. The problem seems to be on the increase, but I think this is due more to the fact that we now know what this is and what is causing it, so vets can diagnose the problem and last year and this year the seed count has been much more than normal because of the weather.

 

[charlie76]

The vets do say if we have frost it seems to stop it so let's pray it gets cold soon!
Still wondering if the horses people know that have been affected were out 24\7? The ones I knew all were.

 

[Tinypony]

To people saying they are fencing trees off - sycamore seeds travel a very long way, and with the winds we've been having - how big an area do you fence off?

 

[vanrim]

Hairy Cob and Red-1 could you elaborate on the swollen legs please. I find these discussions very useful and informative. The knowledge gained can be life saving.

Well I thanked Hairycob at the time when she (I presume) told me in a thread about her experiences. I knew to sweep up acorns, but had no idea Sycamore could be a problem. (As neither did many vets!).

Now, I got rid of one tree, trimmed another, and my horse came off his field and has been on arena turnout for a week already, as soon as they were dropping in numbers.

You don't know who you are helping.

But, at the same time each to their own, most horses will be out with Sycamore to no ill effects.

People have the freedom to see to their horses as they see best, it is all bound up with the fantastic experience that is horse ownership.

To quote an old trainer " you can't save them all".

For me, Hairycob helped me make a connection with October and swollen legs. Now my horse is safer than he was. You just don't know who you are helping to make connections, to tip the balance (with other evidence) to change management.

 

[EstherYoung]

When they first started shedding in the summer the seeds fell straight down as they were immature, so fencing off helped. Now the seeds fly for yonks and can reach over the entire field and far beyond. I have no stabling.

I own the land but I don't own the land where all the trees are. A neighbour cut down one of the enormous trees the other year but they're crafty trees - it came back with a vengeance and there are now far many more saplings round that tree than there were before, and the stump is growing back too. They are very robust, fast growing trees, and grow like weeds, which is why they're so common - they're quick and cheap soundproof barriers for motorways and railways.

I've also cut down all the lower branches, so that the pones can't reach them.

Leaf fall, however, I haven't got a hope of keeping on top of, so I'm concentrating on the seeds. We did this regime last autumn, though, and didn't have a single sapling in the field this spring, so fingers crossed.

Ps, OP, never stop warning people, you are doing a good job. Just understand that people can only work with what they have.

 

[Red-1]

Hairy Cob and Red-1 could you elaborate on the swollen legs please. I find these discussions very useful and informative. The knowledge gained can be life saving.

I have no "official" knowledge on swollen legs, it was just that in the past few years two horses in a field bordered by Sycamore trees had inexplicable swollen legs. I did not happen if we came off the field and into winter arena turnout early, but did if we were out in the field longer.

You may say that I *should* have connected that, but there are always a myriad of circumstances, and I had actually put it down to the fact that when the fields are firmer I spend many a happy hour cantering in the stubble fields. This is really the only change in feed, work, horse care that I was doing. I did have some acorn drop but would sweep them up, it was not a huge problem..

First I thought I was maybe straining their legs with whoopie do work in the stubble, but these were fit eventers, so they should have coped.

Year before last I kept the work levels on the stubble low intensity (not so much whoopie do, blah) and his legs still came up so I thought it was straw stubble putting micro pricks in the skin, and last year had started to wear sports medicine type boots when playing in the stubble.

The legs still came up, and the last time it was both back legs, to ABOVE the hock, and both front legs to some degree. The vet was mystified, as work, feed, way of keeping etc had stayed the same. The vet also told me that they were having a lot of calls from owners about mystery swollen legs.

The legs would reduce with gentle work but not go away, and worryingly they were getting progressively worse. I reduced feed, walked out, turned out even more to keep him moving. The vet said he had seen a lot of the same.

It was when I saw Hairycob's post that I connected that his "feed" had in fact changed, as he now had Sycamore falling, that I did not know to sweep up. I moved him onto arena turnout, and the legs started to reduce almost straight away, and the swelling went in less that a week.

So, this year we chopped down the worst offender, the one that actually overhung the paddock, and he has moved to winter arena turnout early, and his legs are perfectly normal.

May be nothing? Too much risk for me to take though. I do think one consequence of ingesting a toxin could be a strain on the system and swollen legs. Having said that we have not been in the stubble much as it has been too wet this year.

 

[hairycob]

Mine didn't have swollen legs & I don't think that is a typical symptom. Trouble is the early symptoms are very vague. When I found Jason the things that first thoughts that ran through my head were gas colic (spring grass was growing like mad), laminitis (same reason), had he banged his poll on the field shelter. Nothing fitted which is why I called the vet straight away even though at that stage I wouldn't have blamed anyone if they had decided to check back in a couple of hours. Within 45 minutes it was clear he was very ill & 3 hours after getting to the yard he collapsed for the first time despite treatment. He only survived for 9 hours after I got to the yard. He was pts because his heart & diaphram were failing. If my pm visit had been just a couple of hours earlier I would have found a dead horse in the field & would probably have assumed he had colicked.

 

[tiggs]

My vet has seen 3 cases this week. A couple of sites that might be useful from Liphook and Scott Dunns

https://www.facebook.com/notes/equine-atypical-myopathy-myoglobinuria/leaflet/707746929301118

http://www.scott-dunns.co.uk/equine_atypical_myopathy.htm

 

[charlie76]

We had three die at my last yard. They all had different symptoms to be honest,they were all older horses ( over 20) and were out on sparse grazing 24\7. At the time no one new what am was or what caused it.
First one was a pony that was found down in the field with colic like symptoms, it got worse and by the time the vet came she was in such distress she was bleeding from her eyes and nose. Terrible. She was pts.
Because of the extreme symptoms they had her blood tested and the blood tests showed major liver and kidney faliure. We advised to bring them all in as the vet believed she had be poisoned by something.
We bought all horses in ( over 80)and put five small ponies in the indoor school. I checked them all before I left and they were all fine. One pony in the indoor was a bit quiet but I took him a carrot, he ate it and started muching hay.
Next morning I arrived checked horses and all were fineand was mucking out, suddenly heard what I can only describe as a cross between chocking and squealing coming from the indoor school, rushed in to find the quiet pony knelt on the floor with his head between his knees unable to move or breath. It was awful. The vet came as quick as she could, again took bloods and put him to sleep.
The third horse was totally different, they were all still in, we had four vets on site all day checking any that looked quiet and had every animal on the yard blood tested. All looked fine and were eating. One horse just suddenly stopped eating. Vet checked her and I noticed a very very small muscle twitch on her shoulder, I also said she smelt like pear drops by her nostrils.
She was a livery so , although she looked perfectly normal, they took her in to the vets to be careful, she died within 24 hours.
We had all horses PM'd and the vet said that the liver and kidney were totally destroyed and had turned to liquid.
The other symptoms was that their temp dropped dramatically and their gums and membranes were bright red.
Looking back I believe my made died of the same thing ten years previous, she had some odd symptoms leading up to what we thought at the time was a major colic attack but it was much worse than a normal colic, she was smashing her head into the stable walls and making the horrendous chocking/ squealing noise, she was so manic it ewas too dangerous to enter the stable. I believe it was AM now.

A friend of mine lost two when the seedlings were out, she had some one, he died in his new home 24 hours after being delivered. His field friend died at the vets.

Its very very scary but with so many people with horses in fields near sycamores what can you do?

I fence my trees off,I know the seeds travel however at least they can't get to big piles of the under the tree .

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

Our field is surrounded by sycamore trees so obviously all liveries are quite worried about it. Our YO has rang our vet for advice and he says that not ALL sycamore trees are toxic, nor are ALL the seeds, and the same tree can have both non toxic and toxic seeds- he said having the trees is unavoidable especially as we have so many, and has said as long as there is plenty of grass or hay provided then the horses should not be tempted to eat the seeds. He has said those that have had horses suffer from them have generally been those that live out 24/7 without that much grass.

 

[charliecrisps]

I still have to graze a field with a tree in it even though it scares me to death.. but i fenced around it and walk the area.. to me at least if something happened i can say i tried to prevent it.

The yard i was talking about originally said 'all owners were warned but was their choice whether to graze or not' Helpful! I suspect now after several deaths they will fence off the trees (which are all just at one end of the field!) Just a shame they didnt do it beforehand.
What upsets me is the people who just turn out without an attempt to fence off/collect/part stable/mitigate the risk.

Noone says you can collect all the seeds as they blow in the wind, or chop random trees down but you can try to mitigate the risk

Case of how bothered people want to be i guess.

May be a case of hoovering the grass which takes forever, fencing the tree as most the seeds do drop below or putting a stable up and part stabling etc...

Would these people also graze a field with tons of ragwort? Probably not

 

[sare_bear]

Noone says you can collect all the seeds as they blow in the wind, or chop random trees down but you can try to mitigate the risk

Case of how bothered people want to be i guess.

May be a case of hoovering the grass which takes forever, fencing the tree as most the seeds do drop below or putting a stable up and part stabling etc...

Would these people also graze a field with tons of ragwort? Probably not

I think that unfortunately whether you know about the problem or not, some people just do not have options. I did buy a poo picking hoover specifically to pick up the seeds, but I have 20 acres and about 30+ trees.(That's after having removed some!) There is not a hope! Even if I hoovered 24/7! With the gales the past few years fencing around the trees, is only good to make me feel better. Will it reduce the risk? No, the seeds have blown everywhere, a higher concentration quite a way from the trees. Not everyone can just randomly put up stables as you suggest. Yes, in the future when I can get planning, but for now I have 1 for emergencies, but with 10 horses, I can't get them off the grass.

So maybe from the outside, you may feel that I am one of those that is 'not bothered'! Completely the opposite, but short of selling up my house, or taking up cattle farming instead, I have to live with it.

 

[hairycob]

Round here, & probably most of the country, there are sycamores all over the place You will never eliminate the risk. All you can do is be aware & minimise the risk as best you can. You may be lucky & your seeds not have the toxin, the wind may even blow them away from you, your horse may not like to eat them but if you are aware & your horse is sick you know that AM needs treating straight away & to tell the vet there is a sycamore risk. That can be the difference between life & death :& ultimately is all most people can do
.

 

[Inthemud]

Depending on your area, not everyone is able to just cut trees down either. Obviously TPO'd trees are protected, but also all trees in conservation areas etc., never mind national parks.

Fines for cutting down or doing unauthorised tree work can be in the tens of thousands of £s and you would be told to replace them.

 

[windand rain]

Depending on your area, not everyone is able to just cut trees down either. Obviously TPO'd trees are protected, but also all trees in conservation areas etc., never mind national parks.

Fines for cutting down or doing unauthorised tree work can be in the tens of thousands of £s and you would be told to replace them.

This I am sorry for anyone who has a sick horse for any reason but I also fear for the British countryside if hysterical chopping of trees goes on. It is just another risk minimise it by feeding your horse well and if you are worried much against the grain for me put it in a stable overnight as it seems those out 24/7 are at the greatest risk. I am lucky we only have silver birch trees in our field but I did panic a little when in August the horse I was looking after while his owners were away was hoovering up sycamore seeds with gay abandon. They don't seem worried by it but I made sure I fenced him away as I did not fancy telling them their horse had died

 

[hairycob]

I am very much an out 24/7/365 person but, now, if I was at a yard with sycamores nearby I would stable autumn & spring. I found out the hard way that feeding additional forage is not always enough & am aware of several cases that were on good grass or fed additional forage. I suspect that cob/pony types are more prone to eat anything until it is proven not to be food - Jason certainly was - & also more likely to be out on sparse grazing. I suspect that this is were the statistical link with sparse grazing comes from rather than a causal link. Mine weren't on sparse grazing (in fact I was concerned about weight gain) & after Jason died HP was moved to a different field and given haylage - still got it. A picky TB had been in the field for a short period before mine while his fence was repaired. He was fine.

 

[smellsofhorse]

As terrible as the illness is,
You can sort of understand why people don't think about it until it happened to them or their horse.

As you said horse have grazed the land for 10 years and your horse for 5 and even after your horse became ill no other horse has yet.

So much is unknown about it we don't totally know what cases it.

 

[hairycob]

The trouble is the toxin levels vary - from tree to tree, from year to year & even between seeds on one tree but no one knows why. You may be at a yard where there is actually zero risk for years & then one year - bam. The difference could be as little as the usual prevailing wind blows the seed away from the field but one storm came from a different direction. That is what makes it so difficult to deal with from a prevention angle. All we can really do is be aware, reduce the risk where possible, know the signs & act promptly on them and log any cases you do have on the University of Liege site. AM is not notifiable &, certainly historically, under diagnosed so nobody knows how many horses actually die. The better a record can be built up the more likely researchers are to get funding. Ultimately the answer will possibly be a portable test to save diagnostic time & an anti toxin to treat. Horses will still get it but the survival rates will be higher. Those that recover usually make a full recovery, it's just getting through the first couple of days that's tough.

 

[hairycob]

http://www.myopathieatypique.fr/en/declarer-un-cas/

This is the link for declaring a case. Please do if you have experienced a case - every bit of knowledge will help. It is in English!

 

[Patchworkpony]

This is a whole new and very worrying situation that is perplexing us all. In all the many decades I have kept horses I have never felt so threatened by something we can't control. You can pick up acorns, limit rich grass pull up ragwort etc. BUT you simply can't control, or guess, what the wind's going to dump on your paddocks.

 

[EquiEquestrian556]

I have the same with my fields. Sycamores are the most common tree in this area. And the seeds travel a long way. It's not just a few weeks - the trees have been shedding for months. It does scare the bejesus out of me, we're sweeping the seeds up twice a day, we supplement with 24/7 fibre, they're well fed, they get extra vitamins. I don't know if it's enough. But I'll tell you now, there isn't a single field in our bit of west Yorkshire that isn't within seeding distance of a sycamore - they line every road, motorway, train track, and many field boundaries. So we cope and we pray, it's all we can do. Where would we move to?

^^ This. We have sycamores EVERYWHERE, and with recent wind there are seeds all over our field. And sadly we only have this field, it's perfect, except it has sycamores in & surrounding it We do have a poo hoover, and I fenced off all the trees, but the wind blows them all around & constantly. Luckily ours are all in at night though. It's such a horrible condition, but alas many of us don't have the option to move our horses to another pasture. Horrible trees!

 

[EquiEquestrian556]

Round here, & probably most of the country, there are sycamores all over the place You will never eliminate the risk. All you can do is be aware & minimise the risk as best you can. You may be lucky & your seeds not have the toxin, the wind may even blow them away from you, your horse may not like to eat them but if you are aware & your horse is sick you know that AM needs treating straight away & to tell the vet there is a sycamore risk. That can be the difference between life & death :& ultimately is all most people can do
.

I agree with you.

 

[YorksG]

One way of reducing the risk of such plants and plant materials getting into your horse, is to cross graze with cattle or sheep. We graze three sheep with our four horses and they keep down all the weeds, including any tree saplings in the field.

 

[Patchworkpony]

One way of reducing the risk of such plants and plant materials getting into your horse, is to cross graze with cattle or sheep. We graze three sheep with our four horses and they keep down all the weeds, including any tree saplings in the field.

We have sheep - do you think they eat the seeds when grazing? If so I wonder if they are harmed by them.

 

[YorksG]

Our last three ewes lived well into their teens, having done a fantastic job of field 'cleaning' We have one sycamore on the land and we have few seeds and NO seedlings, so seems to work. The current three ewes are seven years old and in excellent health!

 

[ameeyal]

Is there no way of getting seedlings tested to see how much toxin there is in them.

 

[Patchworkpony]

Our last three ewes lived well into their teens, having done a fantastic job of field 'cleaning' We have one sycamore on the land and we have few seeds and NO seedlings, so seems to work. The current three ewes are seven years old and in excellent health!

Thanks for that. We have three delightful Shetland sheep and are planning to get more next year so I'm hopeful this may be the way to keep the dreaded seeds at bay.

 

[YorksG]

The best controls are often the ones which would occur naturally, Shetland sheep are lovely but their wool is a bit tough for hand spinning

 

[Patchworkpony]

Shetland sheep are lovely but their wool is a bit tough for hand spinning

Our last lot of Shetlands, bought years ago, had lovely fleeces and some kind lady spun all the wool for me. Now I've just got to knit myself a nice warm sweater. Might do it this winter - I've only had the wool 25 years!

 

[vanrim]

Thanks Red-1 for taking the time to reply. I live on the Wirral in the North West and although I do not know of any cases around this area, my field has Sycamore trees bordering in the Lane and the more info I have the better I think.

I have no "official" knowledge on swollen legs, it was just that in the past few years two horses in a field bordered by Sycamore trees had inexplicable swollen legs. I did not happen if we came off the field and into winter arena turnout early, but did if we were out in the field longer.

You may say that I *should* have connected that, but there are always a myriad of circumstances, and I had actually put it down to the fact that when the fields are firmer I spend many a happy hour cantering in the stubble fields. This is really the only change in feed, work, horse care that I was doing. I did have some acorn drop but would sweep them up, it was not a huge problem..

First I thought I was maybe straining their legs with whoopie do work in the stubble, but these were fit eventers, so they should have coped.

Year before last I kept the work levels on the stubble low intensity (not so much whoopie do, blah) and his legs still came up so I thought it was straw stubble putting micro pricks in the skin, and last year had started to wear sports medicine type boots when playing in the stubble.

The legs still came up, and the last time it was both back legs, to ABOVE the hock, and both front legs to some degree. The vet was mystified, as work, feed, way of keeping etc had stayed the same. The vet also told me that they were having a lot of calls from owners about mystery swollen legs.

The legs would reduce with gentle work but not go away, and worryingly they were getting progressively worse. I reduced feed, walked out, turned out even more to keep him moving. The vet said he had seen a lot of the same.

It was when I saw Hairycob's post that I connected that his "feed" had in fact changed, as he now had Sycamore falling, that I did not know to sweep up. I moved him onto arena turnout, and the legs started to reduce almost straight away, and the swelling went in less that a week.

So, this year we chopped down the worst offender, the one that actually overhung the paddock, and he has moved to winter arena turnout early, and his legs are perfectly normal.

May be nothing? Too much risk for me to take though. I do think one consequence of ingesting a toxin could be a strain on the system and swollen legs. Having said that we have not been in the stubble much as it has been too wet this year.