Sycamore trees do kill!

[vanrim]

Mine didn't have swollen legs & I don't think that is a typical symptom. Trouble is the early symptoms are very vague. When I found Jason the things that first thoughts that ran through my head were gas colic (spring grass was growing like mad), laminitis (same reason), had he banged his poll on the field shelter. Nothing fitted which is why I called the vet straight away even though at that stage I wouldn't have blamed anyone if they had decided to check back in a couple of hours. Within 45 minutes it was clear he was very ill & 3 hours after getting to the yard he collapsed for the first time despite treatment. He only survived for 9 hours after I got to the yard. He was pts because his heart & diaphram were failing. If my pm visit had been just a couple of hours earlier I would have found a dead horse in the field & would probably have assumed he had colicked.

I am so sorry you lost your horse Hairycob but you and others are doing a really good job of making us aware of the dangers and signs to look out for. Thanks again for all your input.

 

[SO1]

Do you think putting grazing muzzles on them might help as I think that would make it harder for them to eat the seeds. My pony wears grazing muzzle most of the year and we have acorns as well as one sycamore. We can't remove the sycamore as it is not on the YO property. Some of the other fields have a lot more sycamore in them again not on YO property but adjoining property so can't remove.

Wearing his muzzle does make it harder to eat the acorns so presume it would be harder to eat the sycamore.

I did speak to my vet as they have had a run of cases recently and she has said it can be picked up in a blood test - {would routine blood tests spot sub clinical cases so they can be treated earlier?}. She said in a recent case one horse had to be PTS but its field mate on the same regime was fine. I expect some horses may have a natural immunity to it or the toxin is not present in all seeds from the same tree.

I think it more scary than ragwort or acorns as it harder to remove the seeds and the outcome is so poor.

 

[charlie76]

My friend who lost her horse to it had turned him out in a grazing muzzle so I'm not sure if it would help, she lost hers in spring rather than autumn so they think it was seedlings rather than seeds.

 

[hairycob]

Went to a talk last night & v worried that people will have gone away thinking this only affects horses in poor condition, on sparse grazing during winter storms. I had to point out that my horses got it in lovely spring weather in April, they were fit & in tip top condition on fast growing grass. The vet giving the talk said he had never diagnosed a case but with hindsight suspected he had come across it.
To be fair to him the topic was a last minute request due to recent deaths but it did illustrate that if vets are not fully aware of the risks it's not surprising that owners are confused.

 

[snowstormII]

I had to go to this website to work out what tree I had. Phew, thankfully I have a field maple. Www.Hainaultforest.co.uk

 

[L&M]

I am confused - isn't a Field Maple theh same thing as a sycamore?

 

[Liane]

I have spoken to my vets and although people on the internet appear to be saying that Field Maple is ok as its different from Sycamore they are all types of 'Acer' tree and they could all contain the toxins.

 

[Suechoccy]

Animal Health Trust paper from 2013: see page 16. Only Sycamore is implicated in EAM, not field maple.

http://www.aht.org.uk/skins/Default/pdfs/Defraoctl-dec2013_focus.pdf

Liphook Veterinary Surgery, May 2014, confirm the same, only sycamore is implicated in EAM, not field maple.

http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/news/2014/05/aytypical-myopathy-have-we-lost-some-perspective/


Sycamore, at all stages of growth, has large 5-fingered leaves with pointed-tips, often gets that black spot in autumn too.

Field maple, at all stages of growth, has small delicate 5-fingered leaves with rounded tips, and doesn't get black spot.

 

[Liane]

The information available seems to be quite conflicting, here is a link to somewhere that states that Field Maple is included :-(

https://www.facebook.com/notes/equine-atypical-myopathy-myoglobinuria/leaflet/707746929301118

 

[HaffiesRock]

It is such a horrific thing to happen. There are 2 cases very close to me, who are both currently at the vets being treated (and fingers crossed, not getting any worse) Both horses came down with it after the storms we had recently. There are no nearby trees, but a huge number of seeds blew in overnight and were eaten

My paddock borders woodlands and there is one big sycamore overhanging the fence line. I fence this off and check daily for seeds. Yesterday, when I looked up at the tree it was completely bare but there were only the odd seed in the fence area so I am hoping they have all now blown away. I will still be checking daily though until the coast is clear so to speak.

We also have a huge oak, which thankfully, didn't produce any acorns this year.

 

[Suechoccy]

The information available seems to be quite conflicting, here is a link to somewhere that states that Field Maple is included :-(

https://www.facebook.com/notes/equine-atypical-myopathy-myoglobinuria/leaflet/707746929301118

That link says: "in the seeds of some Acer such as Acer pseudoplatanus (= maple/Sycamore tree)"

ie maple/Sycamore tree are the common names for Acer Pseudoplatanus.

Whereas field maple (not mentioned in that facebook link) is Acer campestre.

 

[Liane]

Oh ok, thank you for explaining Suechoccy, my vets had said any tree in the 'Acer' family could contain the toxins.

 

[Dobermann Girl]

Ok I thought the seven trees In my hedge were sycamores, turns out they are maple, but they look very much like sycamore. The seeds are the same as well. So now I want to know if maple seeds are toxic to horses?

 

[lelly]

To be honest, the vets don't really know enough about it. They are learning more about it all the time. I would be cautious with any Acer related tree until we know more. My vet told me the leaves can be poisonous too but my friends vet said they are not. There is too much conflicting information out there and its becoming very confusing.

 

[Patchworkpony]

It seems to have gone quiet on the sycamore front is that because the danger is dying down or is it because there are no new cases to report?

 

[EquiEquestrian556]

It seems to have gone quiet on the sycamore front is that because the danger is dying down or is it because there are no new cases to report?

I hope for the sake of the horses it's because there are no new cases.

 

[Evie91]

I read an article in last weeks horse and hound (think it was last week). Apparently RSPCA are advising horses should be kept off pasture with sycamore from beginning of autumn until end of spring!
I have sycamore - in and around paddocks. I was hopeful that with full blown winter weather just round the corner, I'd no longer have to worry (until spring), seems not to be the case.
Mine come in over night - out for 8-9 hrs in the day, have hay in the field (more than they can possibly eat!) and hard food. Don't know whether this regime is working or whether so far I've just been lucky......

 

[Patchworkpony]

I read an article in last weeks horse and hound (think it was last week). Apparently RSPCA are advising horses should be kept off pasture with sycamore from beginning of autumn until end of spring!
I have sycamore - in and around paddocks. I was hopeful that with full blown winter weather just round the corner, I'd no longer have to worry (until spring), seems not to be the case.
Mine come in over night - out for 8-9 hrs in the day, have hay in the field (more than they can possibly eat!) and hard food. Don't know whether this regime is working or whether so far I've just been lucky......

The problem is for anyone surrounded by these trees it's like living on a knife edge.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I currently found a tree on our pasture we were unaware of, I think my boy's symptoms are due to sycamore poisoning.

 

[Patchworkpony]

I currently found a tree on our pasture we were unaware of, I think my boy's symptoms are due to sycamore poisoning.

Sorry haven't been following - what symptoms does he have?

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Lethargic. Head low in stable heart rate increase. Sweating And today he nearly went down 3 times on a ride and last one was on the road .Blood test showed raised liver enzymes.

 

[teabiscuit]

HGA-12 I'm thinking of you and your boy, I hope he's ok.

 

[Evie91]

Oh dear. When I spoke to my vet in December he said he had been to a talk on this and latest research was stating winter was a low risk/no risk time as the seeds deteriorate and lose toxicity. He was clear that spring and autumn were the risky times. This autumn particularly bad as with all of the wind we had lots fell at once, rather than over a few weeks.
So sorry to hear about your horse, hope he makes a full recovery.

 

[leggs]

sending healing vibes!!! how long since the sympthoms ? since today as you say it was first noticed during riding ? Hope he recovers !

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

sending healing vibes!!! how long since the sympthoms ? since today as you say it was first noticed during riding ? Hope he recovers !

It was two weeks ago when he had colic and the symptoms started then, but going down on his knees was the first time today.

 

[leggs]

But he must have been better in between this time ? otherwise you wouldn't go riding ! that would make it unlikely to be sycomore poisoning from what I know.
Whatever the case, hope you find out what it is and that he makes full recovery!

 

[charlie76]

If your horse has myopathy he wouldn't show symptoms then get better then worse. Horses with myoptathy are normal fine one minute and dying within the next half an hour, they don't pick up and get worse. They either get very ill and with intense vet treatment improve and stay better or they die.
There are no warning signs , they go from well to dead in a matter of hours.
I imagine you horse has a toxin or a virus.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

But he must have been better in between this time ? otherwise you wouldn't go riding ! that would make it unlikely to be sycomore poisoning from what I know.
Whatever the case, hope you find out what it is and that he makes full recovery!

We have two pairs of fields he was in one pair 3 months no issue, the day he went into the other where we recently found sycamore tree was the day he had colic, heart rate up, sweating a lot. Vet said limit turnout 2 hours out 1 hour in. Then we went out for the day and I just shut him down the bottom of the pair of fields. He was fine, then the day after back in the top and he colic again.

Bloods taken, vet check resulted in
raised laboured heart rate
liver enzymes raised
very subdued and lethargic.
lying down a lot
.

I in the meantime continued to limit turnout still on this pair of fields as we thought the long grass at the top end which had 7 months off was long and we thought he gorged him self.

Only tail end of last week did livery find seeds in one corner, we have been picking them up since and today we found what we suspect are sycamore as there are leaves and seeds under it as well as this corner ONLY of the field. The horses are in the bottom end now where no seeds have been found.

In the meantime I am booking the vet to come back and check him as I will not leave anything to chance.

 

[BraidedTail]

Lethargic. Head low in stable heart rate increase. Sweating And today he nearly went down 3 times on a ride and last one was on the road .Blood test showed raised liver enzymes.

Have you considered PSSM/EPSM? Colic, sweating, stumbling are some of the symptoms and also (not sure but maybe?) the raised liver enzymes too. Also suggestion is to feed a detox supplement to help liver recover. Hope you find the cause and he recovers ok.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Oh and he is now on milk thistle too.

Was thinking of a detox or vitamin B1 and vitamin B2 might support the function of muscle cells. Vitamins C and E might be useful as anti-oxidants.