Tail Docking Ban

CaveCanem said:
Sarah, they still have part of their tail, albeit small. It is not removed completely. If you want to read back over Hen's many posts about her dog's split, bleeding, painful tail?
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Gosh, did I post that many, was I boring you CC?? :p :D

I dislike a short dock, I think 1/2 is probably the most I would like to see docked. Still plenty of tail to wag, but enough off that it doesn't get ripped.
Unfortunately if Otto were to have his tail amputated it would have to be the majority of his tail as the amputation doesn't heal like a dock and you end up with an area that can still become damaged.
 
CaveCanem said:
Bobtails are just a dog born without a long tail.

When I hear 'Bobtails' I automatically assume OES, which of course, used to be docked.

Australian Shepherds have naturally bobbed tails.

We do have control over everthing, yes. I kinda like it that way, dogs would be lousy legislators. BAN GINGER PEOPLE! FREE BONES FOR EVERYONE :p
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PMSL fair point:D
 
Also, just so i have adequate knowledge on dogs tails:D Why do they get ripped? Is it on thick shrubbery? Bearing in mind that someone who only knows dogs as being indoors, walks in park *coughs wagging long tails*:D so i have no idea of how working dogs work.
 
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Now it may not look awful, however it is reopened every day, he chews it because it irritates him so much making it worse, he hesitates before he goes into thick cover but still goes because it's what he loves doing. This damage is just from his everyday walks, he is yet to properly work cover in a 'working' scenario.
Luckily we have managed it enough that the hair is covering it and he was happily working thick cover again. Yet in the past few weeks he has started to come back from his walks covered in blood and the tail chewing has started again, so it is only a matter of time before it gets in this state again.
 
sarahsum1 said:
Also, just so i have adequate knowledge on dogs tails:D Why do they get ripped? Is it on thick shrubbery? Bearing in mind that someone who only knows dogs as being indoors, walks in park *coughs wagging long tails*:D so i have no idea of how working dogs work.
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Hen will know more about this than me, but basically a spaniel's job is to go into cover - so undergrowth, brambles etc - and push the birds out for the guns.

They also wag their tails constantly while they are working - Henry whacks his sides with his tail when he starts using his nose, and with some force too as if your legs happen to be in the way you will know about it:D

The combination of waggy tails and brambles is not a good one - things tend to get tangled in them and the skin can be ripped as a result, and of course the environment is not the cleanest so there is an infection risk when this happens:(
 
my dog Boris (a GSP) is not a working dog but is docked and i am so glad he is!

the way he runs around the house with his whole bum wagging and banging into doors and furniture and the fact that whenever we go for a walk he is in and out of heavy undergrowth, ditches, streams etc makes me think if he did have a full length tail it would be a painful problem very soon!

Boris has about 3-4 inches of tail so he can still wag away!
our Doberman on the other hand was docked way too short imo (flush with her bum) and she would be fine with a tail as she plods sedately along the footpath and doesn't rush around the house.
 
Oh i see, well put like that then yes it only seems fair to dock the working ones. As long as it is done humanely that is. Thanks for explaining. :)
 
sarahsum1 said:
Also, just so i have adequate knowledge on dogs tails:D Why do they get ripped? Is it on thick shrubbery? Bearing in mind that someone who only knows dogs as being indoors, walks in park *coughs wagging long tails*:D so i have no idea of how working dogs work.
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A Spaniel's job is to flush game, therefore they go into cover (brambles etc) to push the birds out the other side. Spaniels are unique in the way they do this, they will go into cover that other dogs won't and do so enthusiastically.
Their tail is constantly wagging, the more cover and birds the faster it goes!

A dog with a short tail will go in and come out with no real issues, but the longer the tail the more problems as it gets tangled up in the cover. I have had to wade in after my dog as he has become stuck fast by his tail!
With every wag it will catch on something, imagine trying to walk through brambles, your trousers would probably snag on every branch - same with the dogs tail. Repeatition causes the dogs tail to become more and more damaged, to the point anything will cause it to split. My Dog often splits his when he is giving my OH a welcome home.
 
sarahsum1 said:
Oh i see, well put like that then yes it only seems fair to dock the working ones. As long as it is done humanely that is. Thanks for explaining. :)
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To many it may not seem that way. Puppies are done at 3 days old, before their nervous system is fully functioning and the bones in their tail are still soft like cartilage.
The process is very quick, and often the puppies don't make a sound, those that do are usually just objecting to being remove from their Mums.

As Gazey pointed out, we still remove dew claws in much the same way without any law against it.
 
kirstyhen said:
A dog with a short tail will go in and come out with no real issues, but the longer the tail the more problems as it gets tangled up in the cover. I have had to wade in after my dog as he has become stuck fast by his tail!
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I have had to do this many a time too, happily Henry has learned to hold still and look pathetic until I go and save him... he does definitely protect himself, he is really careful about choosing his ways in and out of thick cover. But if something exciting goes in there all caution goes to the wind, which is where we may have trouble ahead.
 
Hmmm, i must admitt don't like the sound of that but again i have never seen it done so.... Although i did once watch a prog about pigletts :D and they had their tails cut off and balls too. They really did squeal! but soon got over it. I guess if they are young enough it shouldn't be a prob. I would hope an older one would be sedated/knocked out:)
 
Spudlet said:
I have had to do this many a time too, happily Henry has learned to hold still and look pathetic until I go and save him... he does definitely protect himself, he is really careful about choosing his ways in and out of thick cover. But if something exciting goes in there all caution goes to the wind, which is where we may have trouble ahead.
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That's a Cocker for you! Springers aren't that intelligent :D Otto doesn't engage his brain and just throws himself in regardless! I have to keep an eye on him and if he looks stuck yell at him to wait, otherwise he'll just yank his tail free and we all know what happens then :(
 
For an older dog it would be an amputation so would be done under GA :) You have to dock them as tiny puppies or the chance is lost and it becomes an amputation.
 
sarahsum1 said:
Hmmm, i must admitt don't like the sound of that but again i have never seen it done so.... Although i did once watch a prog about pigletts :D and they had their tails cut off and balls too. They really did squeal! but soon got over it. I guess if they are young enough it shouldn't be a prob. I would hope an older one would be sedated/knocked out:)
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Yup, anything older than 3 days requires a GA to have it's tail removed.

Pigs and Lambs can still be docked when they are much older - it's recommended that they are done before they are 2 weeks, but Lambs can be done at any age up to 6 weeks, so they are much more developed than a 3 day old puppy, hence the more extreme reaction.
 
We do our piglets at 24 hours, but thats illegal too, don't you know (without proof that other measures against tailbiting have been taken and shown not to work)...

I'm lucky to have never experienced a dog having tail trouble, but our Breton used to get his ears and belly ripped to shreds (I think the missing tail gave him the impression he was invincible??). I'd shudder to think what his tail would have looked like!
But he was bobtail, and had a special bum flap of fur which would wag with his stump. A very attractive look in the bretons.

CC - do you know anything about the bobtail gene? A brittany at crufts was showing with a 3/4 tail without any feather (a hideous, disgusting thing tbh, but until the KC know what these tails are going to come out like, they can't set a standard :( ). Apparently it was a mutuation rather than a 'type' of tail, but as brittany's carry bob-tail, I wondered if it was a bob-tail variation or mutation!

And Aussie Shepherds are often docked too. There were tailed dogs at Crufts!
 
Really? Maybe I am thinking of the wrong breed. I heard talk of breeding OES with Australian Shepherds to eventually produce a natural bobtail. But what happens to the by-product, what happens to the gene pool, what happens to any genetic freakshows which may crop up.

Gah, there are enough breeds in the world without creating new ones or tampering with the ones that already exist....
 
The Bobtail Gene is homozygous lethal (linked to Spina Bifda) and can lead to re-absorbation and malformation, so you don't find often two Bobtail dogs mated together, hence you will get some puppies naturally Bobbed and some with a tail.

I heard talk of breeding OES with Australian Shepherds to eventually produce a natural bobtail. But what happens to the by-product, what happens to the gene pool, what happens to any genetic freakshows which may crop up.
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They have already done this with Boxers. As you say if you start only breeding for the bobtail what happens to any health problems linked to the gene?? What about all the pups that aren't bobbed?? I'd rather buy a healthy dog that was docked, than a genetically unsound dog with a natural bobtail.
 
Harper_Gal said:
We do our piglets at 24 hours, but thats illegal too, don't you know (without proof that other measures against tailbiting have been taken and shown not to work)...

I'm lucky to have never experienced a dog having tail trouble, but our Breton used to get his ears and belly ripped to shreds (I think the missing tail gave him the impression he was invincible??). I'd shudder to think what his tail would have looked like!
But he was bobtail, and had a special bum flap of fur which would wag with his stump. A very attractive look in the bretons.

CC - do you know anything about the bobtail gene? A brittany at crufts was showing with a 3/4 tail without any feather (a hideous, disgusting thing tbh, but until the KC know what these tails are going to come out like, they can't set a standard :( ). Apparently it was a mutuation rather than a 'type' of tail, but as brittany's carry bob-tail, I wondered if it was a bob-tail variation or mutation!

And Aussie Shepherds are often docked too. There were tailed dogs at Crufts!
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Are you a brittany girl too??
 
Haha.

People never know what he is when i tell them.

My little nephew took him to a family show and the judge wouldn't let him in because she said he was a spaniel mix not a pure breed.
 
Harper_Gal said:
If a tail is a vital part of a dog, please explain to me the bob-tail gene? Are all bob-tailed dogs severely disabled?

I have owned a bob-tail who showed no signs of being disabled. I have a 1/4 length tailed dog, who shows no signs of disability. Please explain to me what a dog loses when it loses it's tail?

The bob-tail used to wag his stump, so don't you dare tell me he couldn't express his moods!!!

I do not wish to own a working breed with a tail. It's not vanity, it's not cruelty, it's common sense!
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Natural bobtail occurs due to a mutated/defect gene, it can occur completely naturally and as in the case with the Manx cat, it doesn't always have to be humans involved, for it to become a breed trait.

But when humans are involved, it should be noted that focusing the breeding on producing as short bobtails as possible, due to the mutated/defect gene, the complete absence of the tail increases the risk of spina bifida and/or changes in the sacrum etc.
Other side affects with attempting to refine the gene usually ends with the litter sizes decreasing, because when this gene - according to what my dictionary says I should translate it to - gathers (?), it becomes a lethal gene.

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However if breeders are sensible, using both dogs with the mutated/defect tail gene and dogs with normal tail gene, they will breed dogs without health problems (at least as far as what this gene can cause), some with long tails and some with short tails due to carrying a mutated/defect gene.

:)




I do believe the majority of docked dogs are happy but I also believe that the tail is an important part of dog language and it is not only something that they use when they wag their tail in happiness together with us. I also do believe that dogs of some breeds with a tightly curled or cork-screw tail, could also be misunderstood, just as a dog with a short docked tail or bobtail, when it comes dog language.

But when it does not seem to cause any trouble in their ability to talk dog language with other dogs, is it because they don't need the tail or is is due to their amazing ability to adapt and understand different body language?



I know what I believe the answer is. :)
 
I've seen many greyhounds suffer damage to their tails yet they have never been a docked breed. Any breed has the potential to damage its tail.

One question though. When spaniels etc are working, the first thing to go through the undergrowth is their head so why do they not suffer damage to their big floppy ears and have to have them removed?

I have two border collies who are more than happy to go into dense undergrowth if they think there's rabbits, pheasants or anything else in there. They haven't yet been caught up in the undergrowth, they usually drag it out with them and I have to remove it by hand or with scissors if its well and truly tangled up in their big, bushy tails lol.
 
Any breed does have the potential to damage it's tail, but with a Spaniel it's when not if. I have only met one or two undocked Spaniels that aren't suffering with their tails.

Spaniels ears are left alone as they don't tend to wag their heads in the same way they wag their tails, so their ears are reletively safe. The long ears also help waft up the scent to their nose, so to cut them off would be detremental to the job they are supposed to do.

As I have said before they way a Spaniel enters and hunts cover is unique, whilst I am sure your BCs have great fun in cover, if they haven't been caught up in it then they aren't in as dense cover as my Spaniel is.
Also if you look at the difference between a reletively short, sturdy tail on a BC and compare it to the thin, whippy tail, sparsely covered in hair that the majority of working bred Spaniels have, you can see why they would have a bigger potential for injury. My Spaniel's tail hits his shoulders when he is wagging it, and he doesn't stop wagging it that hard just because he is working cover!
 
Nailed said:
Yes your points are correct... if the dog is working.. most of the dogs that are docked now days.. are not working.. THEREFORE it is purely for FASHION =o)

Ho hum.. bearing rein.. doicking ears..? what safty reason can be attributed to this?!
Dockign tails have there place.. but in this day and age more tails are docked for the owners than the dogs safety.

Lou x
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My old Cocker had Wagtail and required an operation to remove several inches of his tail, simply because the split tail would not heal due to him constantly wagging it and banging it on things.

I would take docking over the pain he suffered as an adult dog having that op any day of the week.

I did say I was going to buy a working strain, docked Cocker this time. However, the reality was that I prefer the look of a show cocker and wanted a blue roan. Not many workers come in non-solid colours. In the end I put the colour/type of Cocker I wanted above the requirement I initially had for a docked one due to Jasper's experience.

I am hoping I don't regret that, for Harvey's sake, especially as I do want to potentially take him shooting. Taping up a Cocker's tail for beating is rather ineffective. Any bandage you wrap around it to protect it is often wagged off. lol
 
Bella - we found with Ben's ears that clipping made the WORLD of difference! He used to turn up at the start of the season with the brit equivalent of a bowl cut. And he looked stupid. But it sure saved the pain of removing brambles from his feathers!!! Just be nice clipping their tummies, cos the fluff stops their undersides being scratched so much.

Without feathers on his tail, Harvey will look silly, and be the laughing stock of the shoot, but labs don't suffer the same problems for a reason!!
 
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