Tail docking info please

[SusieT]

x..

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. . Most dogs, when they're distressed will turn to 'sleep'. …….. . Sleep shuts out all those influences which dogs don't enjoy.

Alec.

…….. - mammals who are in shock and sleeping are not healthy mammals.

Assuming that you're referring to my post, where did I imply any suggestion as to 'health'?

Alec.

 

[chillipup]

I have seen a litter of dobes done, years ago. I agree the trauma was over quickly but it was still horrible. I also think it is worse now they have to go to the vets and it takes much longer, at least when it was done at home they were chilled right up until, when they go to the vets the bitch gets stressed, IMO, which transfers worry to the pups. I know they soon get over it but it is still horrible.
And really, it must hurt like hell!

There is nothing (other than the owners concern for money) to prevent a vet attending a home to amputate pups tails. Thank heavens it is now at least a qualified vet doing it, rather than joe bloggs just taking a pair of scissors or pen knife to a pup's tail and leaving it raw.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I've only once been involved with docking a pup, a JRT I admit I didnt like the idea and left the room for the actual act of docking, but there was just one squeak and when I went back in (a minute later) the pup was feeding off mum I have seen pups have hind dew claws removed quite a few years ago and again there was a squeak and then they were back feeding off mum

 

[{97702}]

There is nothing (other than the owners concern for money) to prevent a vet attending a home to amputate pups tails. Thank heavens it is now at least a qualified vet doing it, rather than joe bloggs just taking a pair of scissors or pen knife to a pup's tail and leaving it raw.

I would never EVER suggest anyone other than a qualified vet doing it - hence my comment above that the experience can be different depending on the expertise of the person doing it? I could explain further but I think it would offend people

 

[twiggy2]

I'm not sure I subscribe to the safety mechanism explanation, all 3 of my newborns screamed like demons when they had the heel prick!

not exactly in the same league is it really?

foreskin torn off verses heel prick?

I know which one grown men would opt for given a choice between the 2

 

[twiggy2]

dew claw removal can vary immensely-I don't see how it can be compared to docking. some dew claws are attached by bone and soft tissue and some are barely attached at all with just skin holding them on.
I know three vets that follow the hounds and shoot etc etc and non of the three will dock puppies as a routine thing (even before the legalities changed) they will only dock if and when a medical reasons means it is needed for the welfare of the animal.

 

[minesadouble]

not exactly in the same league is it really?

foreskin torn off verses heel prick?

I know which one grown men would opt for given a choice between the 2

I was not in any way comparing the two procedures, merely making the point if a newborn mammal keeps quiet in response to pain as a form of defence then surely a newborn would respond to any level of pain with that same safety mechanism.

 

[Alec Swan]

Tail-docking is a subject which generally splits all those with an interest in dogs, with few sitting on the fence, it seems! Well I'm one of those few, and have a foot in both camps. I too wonder how right it is to simply dock a puppy's tail because of simple vanity. I agree that many of the previously docked breeds were treated as they were through highly doubtful ethics as to the breed. Dobermans for instance were apparently docked to prevent a human assailant from having a handle to take hold of. OK, that's what I've been told, and it may be piffle. It would be a dubious justification if we've ever watched a Dobe at full tilt and working. Most would consider that the greatest threat came from the front end, and it would be unlikely that any 'assailant' would ever get to the rear end of a dog!

Most of those previously docked Dobes also, it seemed to me, had the tail removed in its entirety, which raises an interesting point. Previously someone raised the point that a dog's tail is an extension of the animal's spine, and so it is. I believe that the shorter the docked tail so the more invasive the operation.

We don't, for obvious reasons, dock the tails of any hounds, and that's because those which have been bred for coursing, need their tail to achieve balance whilst they work. Terriers? As previously, docking achieves nothing, in my view, and it's strange how the Border Terrier has a relatively short tail anyway!

The gun dog breeds? One of my Ag Landlords has an undocked GSP and to my eye there is precious little difference between his dog and an English Pointer. Perhaps the GSP has a slightly heavier frame, head and ears, perhaps a little more 'course' too, but that would be about it. The dog in question really suits a full tail.

The question, for me anyway, arises with the spaniel breeds, and I'd maintain that docking is vital. Not just because of any apparent 'appearance', or for that matter the fact that many undocked dogs lead lives of torment with the tips of tails being injured, but more because docked and hard-going dogs are able, despite contradiction, to express themselves and move in a more stylish, efficient and energy saving manner, than their brothers who weren't relieved of a short portion of their tails, at birth. No spaniel with a full tail can be as efficient or move and work, as a dog which has been correctly docked.

Cropped ears? Yeah, I suppose that the look they part, though the practice serves no purpose, especially with the American Bull breeds which only seem to have their ugliness accentuated with no ears!

Alec.

 

[Clodagh]

Alec, as with an awful lot of things I am a fence sitter. I hate the procedure. (And as an aside I don't think a breeder who self docked when it was legal would be worse at it than a vet who hardly ever does it - rather like a vet being less efficient than a knackerman at shooting a horse).
I prefer the end result on a spaniel, and terriers look much better docked, IMO.
My young lab splits the end of her tail every shoot day and I see that coming off eventually, it takes forever to heal and is only just better by the next day out.

 

[twiggy2]

Tail-docking is a subject which generally splits all those with an interest in dogs, with few sitting on the fence, it seems! Well I'm one of those few, and have a foot in both camps. I too wonder how right it is to simply dock a puppy's tail because of simple vanity. I agree that many of the previously docked breeds were treated as they were through highly doubtful ethics as to the breed. Dobermans for instance were apparently docked to prevent a human assailant from having a handle to take hold of. OK, that's what I've been told, and it may be piffle. It would be a dubious justification if we've ever watched a Dobe at full tilt and working. Most would consider that the greatest threat came from the front end, and it would be unlikely that any 'assailant' would ever get to the rear end of a dog!

Most of those previously docked Dobes also, it seemed to me, had the tail removed in its entirety, which raises an interesting point. Previously someone raised the point that a dog's tail is an extension of the animal's spine, and so it is. I believe that the shorter the docked tail so the more invasive the operation.

We don't, for obvious reasons, dock the tails of any hounds, and that's because those which have been bred for coursing, need their tail to achieve balance whilst they work. Terriers? As previously, docking achieves nothing, in my view, and it's strange how the Border Terrier has a relatively short tail anyway!

The gun dog breeds? One of my Ag Landlords has an undocked GSP and to my eye there is precious little difference between his dog and an English Pointer. Perhaps the GSP has a slightly heavier frame, head and ears, perhaps a little more 'course' too, but that would be about it. The dog in question really suits a full tail.

The question, for me anyway, arises with the spaniel breeds, and I'd maintain that docking is vital. Not just because of any apparent 'appearance', or for that matter the fact that many undocked dogs lead lives of torment with the tips of tails being injured, but more because docked and hard-going dogs are able, despite contradiction, to express themselves and move in a more stylish, efficient and energy saving manner, than their brothers who weren't relieved of a short portion of their tails, at birth. No spaniel with a full tail can be as efficient or move and work, as a dog which has been correctly docked.

Cropped ears? Yeah, I suppose that the look they part, though the practice serves no purpose, especially with the American Bull breeds which only seem to have their ugliness accentuated with no ears!

Alec.

I don't see how a docked spaniel is more efficient/moves better or expresses itself better

 

[Alec Swan]

I don't see how a docked spaniel is more efficient/moves better or expresses itself better

Some can appreciate the differences, whilst others can't. I have neither understanding nor appreciation of ballet, so I have some sympathy with you in that you fail to see. I can assure you that the differences are very real.

Alec.

 

[twiggy2]

Some can appreciate the differences, whilst others can't. I have neither understanding nor appreciation of ballet, so I have some sympathy with you in that you fail to see. I can assure you that the differences are very real.

Alec.

smoke and mirrors never support a point of view

 

[Alec Swan]

Smoke and mirrors is a metaphor for a deceptive, fraudulent or insubstantial explanation or description. The source of the name is based on magicians' illusions, … (wiki).

If as you say, and demonstrate, that you're unable to 'see' what others can, then attempting to ridicule those who can is no argument. I can neither explain nor show to you the differences between docked and un-docked spaniels. I'd suggest that you spend time observing and then perhaps you may have an understanding. I don't appreciate the nuances of equine dressage, and for that reason I don't judge. I do however have a modest understanding of spaniels so perhaps see what you may miss.

Alec.

 

[Copperpot]

My dobie's tail is about the same length as the terriers. So probably docked too long for her breed. I really dislike dobie's with tails. Although unlike spaniels and terriers there is no actual reason to dock a dobie's tail other than looks. And I've seen a litter docked. Tbh my horse showed more discomfort when he was freeze marked.

 

[Toffee44]

Putting my 8year old spaniel x lab through amputation was horrible. He is very spaniel in action and temperment. It took forever to heal(whole month) 48hrs of being upset from GA. And Teal being Teal reacted to the stitches which prolonged the healing.

Had it done due to happy tail getting to the point the scar tissue could be pulled apart by my hands and continuously was reopening and re bandaged.

Have to say has put me off ever having a spaniel with a full tail.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

Had it done due to happy tail getting to the point the scar tissue could be pulled apart by my hands and continuously was reopening and re bandaged.

Have to say has put me off ever having a spaniel with a full tail.

Many spaniels, especially those which express themselves through an exuberant tail action have been pts, because a full length tail has refused to heal when damaged. All so often, those dogs which have style and drive are those which are the most likely to suffer. Just why late in life amputation should tend to have such catastrophic consequences and be such a trauma for the dog, I've no idea. Perhaps it's because it's the last 6-8" or so which produces the real impetus which causes such damage. A few minutes of shock and discomfort performed within the first few days, and to what isn't actually formed bone, but more like cartilage, is certainly the more humane path.

As you, I will never own a spaniel with a full tail.

Alec.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Can't compare lab and spaniel tails. Stand and look at a spaniel tail-it whirs round in a circle. Labs wag side to side. Labs tend to go round bushes, spaniels tend to go straight into cover.

My oldest springer is docked, he is working stock straight from a working farm, it was expected that most would go to working homes. The youngsters aren't docked and I wish they were, the long tails are a ruddy liability and frequently injured and bleeding. Bear just jumps up and down in cover, straight through brambles. I'd never have full tails again.

 

[blackcob]

Only partly tongue in cheek here - maybe we should be breeding dogs with more suitable tails?!

FWIW I used to be firmly on the fence, we live in a rural area and docked dogs are the norm, to the extent that I would probably have mustered up a defence if some townie type tried to claim docking was cruel.

I changed my mind the day I first saw the procedure done and now regard anyone happy to cut bits off puppies without anaesthetic as a first class barsteward.

 

[DD]

my JRT is docked. I wish he wasnt. the breeders have all the pups docked by the vet. they just tell the vet they are to be working dogs. Most if not all are sold as pets. I asked the breeder why they are docked and he told me he doesnt think they look right with full tails!

 

[chillipup]

Only partly tongue in cheek here - maybe we should be breeding dogs with more suitable tails?!

Funny you should say that bc, I was just wondering about the Old English Sheepdog ( aka Bob Tails) that used to be docked for generations. Then later on, apparently some pups were actually born without tails and their litter mates with tails and I understand this can still be the case in some litters. But how can this be? Is this fact? Any OES people on the forum?

I know we have bred both good and bad physical characteristics into and out of many breeds of dog over the generations, so could, no doubt, breed the Springer Spaniel with a shorter tail, using selective breeding and continually breeding shorter tailed Spaniels to shorter tailed Spaniels until we had created the desired length tail. But in the case of the OES how could a physical amputation like tail docking be inherited through a breed line? Does anyone have any answers?

 

[blackcob]

Quick response as I'm at work but Bruce Cattanach's bobtailed boxers make for an interesting read

http://bobtailboxers.com/the-cross-corgi-ex-boxer

 

[gunnergundog]

Funny you should say that bc, I was just wondering about the Old English Sheepdog ( aka Bob Tails) that used to be docked for generations. Then later on, apparently some pups were actually born without tails and their litter mates with tails and I understand this can still be the case in some litters. But how can this be? Is this fact? Any OES people on the forum?

I know we have bred both good and bad physical characteristics into and out of many breeds of dog over the generations, so could, no doubt, breed the Springer Spaniel with a shorter tail, using selective breeding and continually breeding shorter tailed Spaniels to shorter tailed Spaniels until we had created the desired length tail. But in the case of the OES how could a physical amputation like tail docking be inherited through a breed line? Does anyone have any answers?

With the Brittany Spaniel you can get both naturally bobbed and full tailed pups.

 

[ester]

Funny you should say that bc, I was just wondering about the Old English Sheepdog ( aka Bob Tails) that used to be docked for generations. Then later on, apparently some pups were actually born without tails and their litter mates with tails and I understand this can still be the case in some litters. But how can this be? Is this fact? Any OES people on the forum?

I know we have bred both good and bad physical characteristics into and out of many breeds of dog over the generations, so could, no doubt, breed the Springer Spaniel with a shorter tail, using selective breeding and continually breeding shorter tailed Spaniels to shorter tailed Spaniels until we had created the desired length tail. But in the case of the OES how could a physical amputation like tail docking be inherited through a breed line? Does anyone have any answers?

What you can achieve through selected breeding can be limited by what the range already is in the population so you might not get a tail short enough. Unless a random mutation occurs (ie bobtail as in OES) which you can then breed on.

 

[chillipup]

Quick response as I'm at work but Bruce Cattanach's bobtailed boxers make for an interesting read

http://bobtailboxers.com/the-cross-corgi-ex-boxer

Well what an eye-opener.. thanks bc. I've not quite got through the whole report yet but I now know it's an inherited gene and that the Pembroke Welsh Corgi , the OES and thanks to gunnergundog, the Brittany Spaniel and the Swedish Vallhund can all produce naturally bob-tailed pups. I shall be doing my own further investigations..via google in due course. Thanks again, much appreciated.

PS not forgetting the Bob-tailed Boxer of course.

 

[Toffee44]

You can see the end open-- stayed like that for a month (was wrapped) before me and vet decided it had to go. Its all very well re- dressing this injury but unfortuantely every time it gets damaged the scarring gets worse.
And scareing isnt flexible. It got to the point that it wasn't just a small cut anymore it turned into an explosion-- i had blood on my ceiling once!! He had no hair left on end of tail. He isn't a working dog really. 2/3 times a year we pick up for farmers shoot here at home but thats it. Most trauma was done against walls/ crate/ and the washing machine door (had to move it in the end).

The raw bit higher up was where he nibbled a dressing.


Length now

Re OES had a full tail one no problems with it. I believe the no tail was a mutation bred in? Same with the Manx Cat.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. regard anyone happy to cut bits off puppies without anaesthetic as a first class barsteward.

Generally, this branch of the forum is reasonably well mannered. I wonder why you need to be quite so rude and to those with whom you disagree. Your opinions of 'Docking' are yours, and not shared by everyone.

Quick response as I'm at work but Bruce Cattanach's bobtailed boxers make for an interesting read

http://bobtailboxers.com/the-cross-corgi-ex-boxer

Dr. Cattanach has raised many interesting points. It seems that he and I would agree, in that our breeds have 'evolved', but thanks to the KC, there are breeds which because there is no acceptance of outcrossing, has many breeds which are now stagnant. Thankfully, most of those breeds which are still bred for a work-purpose, continue to evolve and progress. Those which were originally intended for work, but are now shadows of their former beings and are only used for the show ring, are rather pathetic examples. Strange that he should mention the Boxer as a breed, and the example of the dog shown, which compared with those dogs from the breed's homeland, should be an embarrassment.

Naturally 'Bob-tailed' dogs? I don't really have much faith in his suppositions. I'm quite prepared to be corrected, but all of those dogs which are 'naturally' so, have no tail, at all. The Boxer pup in Fig 3 (was it?), had a tail which had been docked. Those tails which are naturally shorter than one might expect, drop away to a point (consider the Border Terrier). Naturally (via birth) dogs with abnormally short or no tails, do not come to an abrupt halt. Even the end of tail hair hadn't had a chance to grow back!

As for attempting to cross a Corgi with a Boxer, I'm lost for words. A doctorate Cattanachs may have, but whether he and others of his learning actually ever really think before they print such tripe, should have most doubting them. There are interesting and valid points which the good doctor has made, but otherwise, the rest of his article contradicts his former points.

Alec.

 

[blackcob]

One rule for one and one for another, I see!

 

[Alec Swan]

What you can achieve through selected breeding can be limited by what the range already is in the population so you might not get a tail short enough. Unless a random mutation occurs (ie bobtail as in OES) which you can then breed on.

Considering the naturally tail-missing OES, there are also those sheepdogs (working collies) in Scotland and oddly perhaps, mostly on the west Coast, that are genuinely 'bob-tailed', as in, they have no tail, at all and that's how they're born! I'm not too sure what happens when both parents which are b-t are bred with each other, but 'if' they are bred for this specific peculiarity, it would be unlikely that the resultant offspring would be of much use for work, the lack of tail being of an apparently greater importance than the parent's abilities. It's a strange phenomena, I agree!

I wonder how humans became bob-tailed.

Alec.

 

[maxapple]

One of my JRT was docked as a puppy (I got her at 9 months old) She just has a tiny 1-2 inch stump which I don't like. She can't wag it really and it looks odd. My other dog is 2 years younger and has a full lovely tail. He look so much nicer with it and wags it none stop.

I can see why working dogs may have tails docked to avoid injury - but it's wrong to do it for cosmetic reasons Or for fashion.