Tail Docking

[GinaB]

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I have more pictures

It started happening again

So back to the Vet's we go

I don't think people realise how a proper working Spaniel attacks cover. My Parent's have had a fair few Spaniels in their time, and they are still amazed at how hard Otto works cover!!

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Oh no

Sorry to hear that. Hope you get him sorted.

You should see the way my labs attack cover

No match for their chunky tails

Tina just bounds through and wrecks everything in her way, Midget would be more delicate

But will go in anywhere

 

[kirstyhen]

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Thats fair enough I don't have working dogs just pets

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Me too - I prefer to leave my animals as nature intended. I don't think we're in a position to argue with evolution.

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Can I ask what breed you have? I would pretty much guarantee someone has interfered with evolution just a touch for him to be created, whether he is a mongrel or a champion show dog.

Unless of course you have a wolf as a pet.

My dog is doing exactly what his instincts tell him, I'd just like him not to be in pain everytime he does it.

 

[GinaB]

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Thats fair enough I don't have working dogs just pets

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Me too - I prefer to leave my animals as nature intended. I don't think we're in a position to argue with evolution.

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Can I ask what breed you have? I would pretty much guarantee someone has interfered with evolution just a touch for him to be created, whether he is a mongrel or a champion show dog.

Unless of course you have a wolf as a pet.

My dog is doing exactly what his instincts tell him, I'd just like him not to be in pain everytime he does it.

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Nicely put Hen

 

[kirstyhen]

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Also, for people who have never had experiance of a Spaniel, they are not like normal dogs

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I should say!

If only someone had warned me...

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Poor Popple Dog

 

[competitiondiva]

Problem with only relating this to working dogs is how many setters, labs, greyhounds, etc etc, x breeds with very waggy tails!! Also have this problem!! But these breeds are not docked as puppies to prevent a possible problem from occuring and never have been. I have a xbreed dalmation/lab she had her tail amputated at 2 years old after smashing glass, hitting wall after wall! etc with her tail! and causing alot of damage to the end of her tail on numerous occassions. But I still would prefer a dog have a chance of having a tail and if it causes a problem to that particular dog then have it amputated legally by a vet with pain relief under GA. For the sake of one dog having to have a tail amputated there are probably 10 of the same breed/type enjoying a happy life with a tail. Baring in mind the vast majority of working breeds are actually sold as pets not working dogs.

I'd be happier if it WAS only the working dogs being docked but as posted previously on here there are too many people who just prefer it aesthetically (which I do not agree with) who just flaunt the law..

 

[Puppy]

Don't I know it. Poor Popple is sulking with me at the moment...

(I bathed, frontlined and wormed her - aren't I a meanie?!

)

 

[jvoyce]

Actually I have a 3 year old Springer with a full tail. She was a rescue dog as a puppy so I have no clue about her breeding. I just know that she's a happy, healthy dog.

I hear what you say about what kind of dogs I have. They're all rescues as a matter of fact because I despise breeding practices leading to health issues for dogs and other species. I experienced the consequences of line breeding with both my horse and my old labrador.

Just because the human race has caused damage to various species through poor husbandry doesn't support the argument to mutilate them further though.

I do love a good debate

 

[Spudlet]

That is frankly shocking behaviour madam, shame on you

Henry is appalled at such cruelty and is calling International Dog Rescue as we speak!

 

[kirstyhen]

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Actually I have a 3 year old Springer with a full tail. She was a rescue dog as a puppy so I have no clue about her breeding. I just know that she's a happy, healthy dog.

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Would you still feel the same if she came back to you after every walk coated in blood? I am not exagerrating, this is how Otto looks after 40 mins walk. He chews his own tail obsessively because of how much it hurts him. When it is really bad, even the anti-chew spray won't stop him.

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I hear what you say about what kind of dogs I have.
Just because the human race has caused damage to various species through poor husbandry doesn't support the argument to mutilate them further though.

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No perhaps not, however I feel I have a duty to my dog to keep him comfortable and happy. If he had been docked as a 3 day old puppy, he may have had a moment of pain, however been comfortable the rest of his life. As it is he is in pain everyday, purely because he is doing what he wants to do.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Years ago when our JRT had a litter (well one pup actually) she was docked by a friend who had been a terrier man with a hunt for many years, he used a sort of surgical scissor and did her at 3 days old, pup squeaked once and was back feeding in a couple of minutes. The breed standard for GSDs calls for them to have front dew claws not rear ones. We always used to check pups soon after birth and any rear dew claws were removed at 2-3 days by the vet. Interestingly, over later years I have never had a puppy with a rear dew claw whereas at one time they were in every litter.

 

[kirstyhen]

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That is frankly shocking behaviour madam, shame on you

Henry is appalled at such cruelty and is calling International Dog Rescue as we speak!

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I know, we're all debating how cruel tail docking is, when the true culprit is within our midst

 

[Ravenwood]

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Problem with only relating this to working dogs is how many setters, labs, greyhounds, etc etc, x breeds with very waggy tails!! Also have this problem!! But these breeds are not docked as puppies to prevent a possible problem from occuring and never have been.

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Setters are part of the HPR group and therefore their tail is important for the pointing, nor do they work cover like a spaniel. A lab's tail is stiff and sturdy protected by a stronger coat, nor are they bred to work cover like a spaniel. Don't know about greyhounds - didn't think greyhounds have their tails docked - why would they for racing round a track?

It seems from this debate so far that the people who actually own and work dogs are for docking because they realise how important it is for the dogs well being and the people that don't are against it - just my musings

I reckon if you put two spaniels side by side, one with a full tail and one with a docked one - they will both be happy, healthy dogs and I doubt one will be jealous of the other!

 

[kirstyhen]

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I reckon if you put two spaniels side by side, one with a full tail and one with a docked one - they will both be happy, healthy dogs and I doubt one will be jealous of the other!

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I dunno, perhaps that is why Otto beats up my Parent's dogs... they pick on 'cos of his silly tail that has to have an even sillier bandage on it!!

No wonder he likes the IWS!!

And before anyone asks - Despite being a Spaniel, the Irish Water Spaniel is not docked because it works bogland and therefore does not enter cover. My Mothers dog proves this point perfectly by rarely leaving the path

 

[missshell]

Can Otto not have it amputated now on medical grounds?

 

[kirstyhen]

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Problem with only relating this to working dogs is how many setters, labs, greyhounds, etc etc, x breeds with very waggy tails!! Also have this problem!! But these breeds are not docked as puppies to prevent a possible problem from occuring and never have been. I have a xbreed dalmation/lab she had her tail amputated at 2 years old after smashing glass, hitting wall after wall! etc with her tail! and causing alot of damage to the end of her tail on numerous occassions.

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I know I said Otto is splitting his tail, however that is not an accurate description of what actually happens. Otto's tail is ripped open by the brambles (that picture does not show quite how disgusting it looks) I have had to clamber over to him before, because he is literally caught by his tail.

I am sure there are plently of other breeds that split their tails open, however I would guess that the percentage of them compared to how many working spaniels do it is fairly small (making a complete guess, am more than prepared to be shown I'm wrong)
With a working Spaniel it is not a question of when not if.

Personally I would rather my dog experianced a short moment of pain, than had to go through a fairly complex proceedure and anesthetic and long recovery time.

No docked Spaniel I have ever met has had an issue expressing itself, in fact my Father's Cocker has a shorter than average dock, and can express his pleasure better than any dog I've ever met!!

 

[kirstyhen]

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Can Otto not have it amputated now on medical grounds?

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Yes he can. However due to it being a complicated procedure, having a lengthy recovery time and involving an anesthetic which always carries risks, most Vets want to try everything possible to prevent the op.
Although my Vet is better than most, and is only trying strapping and anti-chew spray.

 

[Spudlet]

'Working' is the operative word there though - there's a difference between docking for practical / welfare reasons and docking for aesthetic reasons only, which is what I have an issue with.

Also, is it true that working spaniels have longer docks than show ones used to have? I'm sure I saw that somewhere but I can't remember where

 

[kirstyhen]

Field Trial Bred Spaniels have longer docks than your average working Spaniel because it makes the dog look flashier when it's working., so they get higher marks for style in a field trial test.
I think Show Spaniels had very short docks, but I'm not 100% sure.

This is a longish dock, he had very little taken off (legally I would like to add)

This is what I would consider short

But it certainly doesn't affect him!

 

[Spudlet]

That top one is quite a long tail really isn't it - I am sure I have seen (obviously older) show types with ridiculously short stumps - much shorter than your bottom picture - which are no use to anyone! I think that is what many people have in mind when they think of docking - teeny weeny stumpy tails.

Out of interest, do you think a dock of that length (the top one) would be enought to stop Otto's tail from being damaged? I'm just curious!

 

[competitiondiva]

I quoted these breeds as these are examples of other dogs I have come across who have damaged their tails often but as a breed are not docked.

Like I said if you could be sure that a puppy was to be used as a working dog I would not be against the docking of it as a puppy BUT there are too many people who do it for aesthetical reasons which ruin it for the working people because they flaunt the law. Hopefully the new AWA within a few years (baring in mind no docked dog after april 07 can be shown at crufts etc) will have an effect on the general thinking of these people and less will be doing/trying to do it for aesthetical reasons.

 

[kirstyhen]

I'm not sure why he was docked so long, he is from Scotland (before it was banned completely) so perhaps the Vet doing him wasn't too happy and left him long. Luckily he is a bit of a wuss when it comes to cover and will only do what he has to do.
A dock of that length may have helped Otto had it been done from the beginning, however now he would have to have an amputation it most certainly wouldn't. Amputations (as far as I am aware) don't (usually) heal as cleanly as a dock, don't have hair on the tip to protect and can take awhile to completely heal.

The bottom dog has the shortest dock of all my Parent's dogs, and they certainly would never have a dog done that short purposely.

ETA - So you can see the difference, and why even a long dock like that would protect Otto...

Tag's (the roan cocker) tail is about 3/4 of the length of Otto's, it is the last 1/4 that causes the problems with Otto.

 

[Ravenwood]

Jack Russel's tails are docked to the width of a man's hand so that it can be pulled out of a hole. A spaniels tail is docked to prevent injury (as poor Hen has shown us). As she quite rightly says - FT spaniels tails are left longer. My spaniels tail is a bit too long but luckily he has never split it.

Competition Diva - I think the difference is that, yes, any dog can split its tail whatever breed, but a working spaniel is put in a position where it is very likely he will split his tail if not docked - so prevention is better than cure.

Round here to have a litter's tail docked you have to get a letter from say a Gamekeeper to take to your vets and prove that they are working bred. If I bred a litter of working spaniels I would only want them to go to working homes - they are just not suited as pets and therefore if all people were honest the working lot would have their docked dogs and the showing/pet lot could keep to their own standards of long tails

 

[Oneofthepack]

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Problem with only relating this to working dogs is how many setters, labs, greyhounds, etc etc, x breeds with very waggy tails!! Also have this problem!!

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Yes I've had 2 lurchers who have sprayed my house with their bleeding tails on many occasions. I used to hold Charlies tail when someone came to the door because he'd greet them so enthusiatically he'd open it up and cover all of us.

I really can see the problems it would cause a working spaniel and in that case then yes they should be docked but not by the general public. As before,nine out of ten people might do it properly but the one who doesn't?

 

[Oneofthepack]

Otto's tail is docked? It looks completely normal length. I wonder why the vet bothered at all

 

[kirstyhen]

No, Otto's tail isn''t docked. The Cocker Spaniel's tail in the picture underneath his is, but it's a long dock. But I think had Otto just had that little off in the first place it would have helped him, however now he may have to have an amputation I don't think it would and he will end up with a very short tail.

 

[BayJosie]

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Totally agree Heinmeister, I wouldnt buy another Springer unless it has a docked tail, they look like Retreivers with a long tail. My Jerry Springer has a docked tail and his owner/breeder did it himself although its a bit too short, but I dont care. He is 10 now so was within legal docking by owners. My exhusband used to dock his Jack Russell pups tails with kitchen scissors when they were about 3 days old, we never had a problem. Iam all for docking taols.

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And to disagree with everyone else

this is why I'm AGAINST tail docking. Because for all the good reasons there's always the people who think there's nothing wrong with cutting puppies tails off with kitchen scissors (and yes I know it's illegal now but it still happens) and continue to support docking simply because it 'looks wrong'.

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Yes BUT, all the while it is still LEGAL, people can take the pups to a vet to have it done professionally, if it was to become illegal, people would simply find another way....scissors etc. Even if you don't agree with it, it's better than it is still legal so that MOST responsible people will have their pups tails done by someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[flash1]

Dogs use their tails to communicate with other dogs. by docking tails it takes away this method of communication, also why should you remove tails just because the dog may injure it when working? would you remove their ears because they might injure them when working?
Docking is a cruel, outdated and barbaric practice which is also no longer legal unless carried out by a vet. For people to remove tails with knives and sissors etc is discusting.
I know of someone who did this and a puppy bleed to death.

 

[Oneofthepack]

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Yes BUT, all the while it is still LEGAL, people can take the pups to a vet to have it done professionally, if it was to become illegal, people would simply find another way....scissors etc. Even if you don't agree with it, it's better than it is still legal so that MOST responsible people will have their pups tails done by someone who knows what they are doing.

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Yes BUT while it's still legal people who can't be bothered to go to the vet or would rather spend their money on fags will always try to do it themselves. Unfortunately all laws have to be aimed at the lower end of our society

Make it illegal unless you have special permission for EACH pup, not just blanket docking of all springers etc and make buying or selling a pup without proof that it was done at the vet illegal. Lots of respect for the people who have other views, this is just mine

Not even sure what the law IS really

 

[FestiveSpirit]

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Cant comment about insisting on a vet to do both jobs however

as someone I know does all their own dew claws and has never had a problem...

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Problem with this is that it's both cruel and illegal

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B*llocks no it isnt either, get your facts right before posting emotive rubbish like that

ETA; voila, evidence for you:

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/shared_asp_files/...lofdewclaws.pdf

 

[GinaB]

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I reckon if you put two spaniels side by side, one with a full tail and one with a docked one - they will both be happy, healthy dogs and I doubt one will be jealous of the other!

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Beastie dog is terribly jealous of her schnauzer friends who has a full tail

She looks at it in amazement, whereas Tilly looks at her little stump all 'what happened to yours?'

I like Beasties little stump

It's dead cute

BUT as she is not a breed requiring working (no matter how much she thinks she'd make a good gundog

) if I had the choice, she would not have been docked.