Tail Docking

[jvoyce]

Conclusion
11. The removal of the first digit of the hind limb (true dew claws) is justified in most circumstances.

12. The removal of first digit of the fore limb is justified only if, in the veterinary surgeon’s professional opinion, the particular anatomy/appearance of the digits invites possible damage

How is that emotive and inaccurate then ?

 

[kirstyhen]

[ QUOTE ]
Dogs use their tails to communicate with other dogs. by docking tails it takes away this method of communication,

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, this would explain why my Parent's dogs are completely unable to communicate with other dogs.... How must dogs with tails the same length naturally as a docked tail cope!?

As I said previously, our docked dogs really have no problems expressing how they feel with their tails. I'm also pretty sure dogs have 101 other much more subtle ways of communicating than their tails!

[ QUOTE ]
also why should you remove tails just because the dog may injure it when working?

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I will keep saying this until I am blue in the face!! A working spaniel with a full tail WILL injure it's tail. It is not a question of may, it WILL, it is just a matter of when.
I obviously cannot explain just how distressing it is for my dog when his tail is ripped, I guess until you witness a dog suffering from this injury for yourself you wouldn't understand.

Yes their ears can get injured, however generally a dog knows what it's doing with it's head, I genuinely don't think Otto knows what the hell is going on with his tail. He also doesn't tend to thrash his ears around when he is working, he keeps his head low and fairly still. Whereas his tail is up and wagging hard.

His tail now re-opens everytime he wags it, he doesn't have to hit it on anything, it just re-opens. I should imagine if his ear was damaged in the same way, it would be a dam sight easier to heal as he doesn't wag them furiously non-stop!

 

[FestiveSpirit]

[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion
11. The removal of the first digit of the hind limb (true dew claws) is justified in most circumstances.

12. The removal of first digit of the fore limb is justified only if, in the veterinary surgeon’s professional opinion, the particular anatomy/appearance of the digits invites possible damage

How is that emotive and inaccurate then ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all emotive, couldnt comment about accuracy because you dont quote your source. (ETA: OK, found your source, fancy using the same one as me

Google provides many others

)

However your original statement that anyone other than a vet dew clawing a puppy is illegal was clearly inaccurate (as shown by my evidence)

I rather think on the cruelty matter we will never agree - however I would ask how many litters of puppies you have seen being dew clawed? I have lost count of the numbers I have seen over the years, therefore I can tell you how puppies react to the process having seen it with my own eyes. They squeak momentarily, then within a few seconds they are back with Mum and feeding again. Hardly cruel IMO.

Put it this way, my first husband many years ago was circumsised as a baby. Doubtless he cried at the time, but he have life long trauma and angst because of it? No

 

[jvoyce]

You're right, I don't think we'll ever agree on this as we both clearly have strongly held views.

I didn't know that pups up to 5 days can have hind dew claws removed by just anyone, so thank you for putting me right on that. My quote was from the link you gave me to the RCVS website by the way.

I just really can't imagine how anyone can either dock or remove dew claws from any dog without anaesthetic. To my mind it's enormously cruel and unnecessary and I know that others will disagree with me and never be convinced that it isn't. I suppose it's one of those arguments that will run and run.......

 

[FinnishLapphund]

[ QUOTE ]
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That's fair enough I don't have working dogs just pets

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Me too - I prefer to leave my animals as nature intended. I don't think we're in a position to argue with evolution.

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Can I ask what breed you have? I would pretty much guarantee someone has interfered with evolution just a touch for him to be created, whether he is a mongrel or a champion show dog.

Unless of course you have a wolf as a pet.

My dog is doing exactly what his instincts tell him, I'd just like him not to be in pain everytime he does it.

[/ QUOTE ]


I've not owned a working-type hunting dog, we did look after a docked Cocker Spaniel for many months spread out over two years when I was young (it was when the quarantine laws was different than today, the owner needed to go home to an ill parent in another country, so my family looked after Ludde), it was a very lovely dog but it certainly had hunting instincts. I've only met a handful of working-type Spaniels that was used as hunting dogs on the dog classes that I've attended through my nineteen years of dog owning, so due to the low number I don't think it proves anything but they had tails and none of them had any tail problems, while I knew them.
Other than that, I did have a subscription for a magazine only about hunting dogs for maybe around 7 years or so, before it was bought up and transformed into a hopeless, glossy, bunny-hugging mess.


I'm sorry for Otto's problem and I've seen the pictures of his poor tail but I'm still against docking. I have several reasons but the first one is simply that I prefer to see dogs with a whole tail, I simply don't think stumps are cute.


On my list over other reasons, there is the fact that some of those that thought "I-can-do-it-at-home-by-myself", cut off to much/more than the old breed standards recommended. There's also the question about if they used clean or sharp enough tools.


The tail is an important part of their language and I've met dogs who had big problems interacting with other dogs, due to being of breeds born with long tails but not having visible tails themselves (their fur covered their stumps). They got very upset, in various problems, because they thought they had used their tails to clearly tell other dogs about what rank they thought they had, before the other dog came up close and though my dogs never "offended" those "I-don't-understand-that-other-dogs-can't-see-my-tail-on-a-distance"-dogs, I saw them get into trouble with other peoples dogs several times.



I know people have been docking dogs tails since at least the Middle Ages but I've also read that the earliest written down reason for why somebody began with tail docking many hundred years ago, was that somehow, somebody saw that if you cut a dogs tail off, you can see the end of a few white worms, where the cut have been made. Since intestinal parasites was an even bigger problem back then than it is today, somebody had the brilliant idea that if you pulled out the white worms from the stump, you pulled out the fundamental cause of any future intestinal parasites ever infesting the dog.
The problem is that the white worms isn't really worms, it is nerves! Responsible for sending signals from the brain and out into other parts of the body, including the tail. I have no idea how much of the nerve you could pull out before it snaps off but the mere thought makes me feel quite squeamish, neither do I have any idea for how long they docked the tails for that reason, before realising that it didn't make the dogs worm free for the rest of its life.
But whenever it was discovered, people had already decided that it made the dogs look more impressive, wolfs had fewer things to bite on to, hunting dogs had a little less amount of body that they could hurt etc. and so people continued docking dogs tails.

This leads to my last reason, I believe that as long as those breeding hunting dogs are allowed to continue docking their puppies tails, they have no reason for changing their breeding and begin to breed dogs with more sturdy tails. If people have been able to influence nature by selecting which dog that is allowed to mate with which bitch, to produce the number of dog breeds that we have today, it must be possible to breed f.ex. working-type Spaniels and German Pointers with more sturdy tails.

I can understand that some people feel you already have a functioning solution but that solution also prevents a change from ever taking place. As long as breeders of certain hunting breeds are allowed to dock their puppies tails, they are allowed to continue to breed dogs with bodies not suitable for doing what they are bred for. I fail to see the sense in that.
If you want to breed racing Greyhounds, you breed Greyhounds with an anatomy suitable for running. If you want to breed dogs that hunts in dense shrubbery, you breed dogs with an anatomy suitable for spending time in dense shrubbery. That makes sense to me.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, I don't think we'll ever agree on this as we both clearly have strongly held views.

I didn't know that pups up to 5 days can have hind dew claws removed by just anyone, so thank you for putting me right on that. My quote was from the link you gave me to the RCVS website by the way.

I just really can't imagine how anyone can either dock or remove dew claws from any dog without anaesthetic. To my mind it's enormously cruel and unnecessary and I know that others will disagree with me and never be convinced that it isn't. I suppose it's one of those arguments that will run and run.......

[/ QUOTE ]

No, a puppy whose eyes have not opened can have ANY dew claws legally removed by someone over the age of 18 as my link clearly shows

But yep, we will never agree, so will leave it here

 

[jvoyce]

Thanks for the civilised debate Splotchy. Going back to fuss the rescue springer we picked up today (who ironically has a docked tail).

She's very sweet and in need of lots of tlc.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

Awww bless - hope she settles in well

 

[flash1]

I have seen a dog with a tail damaged by being kept in a kennel that suffered from "happy tail" ie wagging its tail so much it hit it again and again on a kennel wall so splitting its tail. Yes it was painful and the dog had to have the end of its tail removed, BUT this does not mean that every dog kept in a kennel must have its tail removed just in case it damages it.
Yes dogs do have other ways of communicating but the tail does pay a huge part in this and the dog is at a disadvantage with out it.
I actually work with working dogs and see a lot more dogs in one day than most people see in a year, I still think tail docking is a barbaric practice. Dogs are born with tails and unless there is a reason in a individual case for the tail to be removed we should leave well alone.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

How do you find the puppies react when they are docked flash12?

 

[gails]

The reall probel mis ( as someone who works weimaraners) is that they have been docked for so many years that none breeds for the tail ( although that will change now) so as a resutl the tail of most traditionally docked breeds is very thin and not up to the job.

Casper my short haird Weimaraner would have had to have had his tail docked by now as it gets soo bashed, also a point is that he is now 13 and the new weims seem to have overely long and thin ears that they rib just like paper, Casper is of the old type of weim so is 'fit for purpose'.

The reason I chose to get a long haird is that for the time being they are still bred to do a job and not to be a pretty hearth accessory.

As for docking bing cruel, an argument is given that the puppies cry when taken away from mum, well they are underdeveloped and dont understand why the warmth of a familar thing has goneaway, the pricedure is sooo quick.

I love my dogs and have spend thousands on my little mongrol to keep her well, 16 years old now, but why does not one object to the docking of sheep and piglets, ghey are much more developed and aware than a 3 day old pup.

 

[shadowboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I don't give a toss what my dog looks like, however I hate seeing his tail look like this...

That is after strapping, applying sprays, creams and everything else to try and prevent it happening. The only other thing would be keep him constantly on the lead to stop him going into cover.
Perhaps not all Spaniels are affected as badly as he has been, however I would never risk it again and it is for that reason I hope a full ban never comes into place here.

It had started to heal, but has started ripping open again, so we now face an operation and lengthy recovery.

And for those of you who think his tail doesn't look too bad, feel free to come and see the stress he goes through both during and after EVERY walk.

Also, for people who have never had experiance of a Spaniel, they are not like normal dogs, they don't just go for a jolly in the woods, they hit cover with a passion.
Otto never looks for a gap, he goes through no matter what is in his way. His tail is constantly wagging, and this is the reason Spaniels rip their tails open.
I can't speak for any other breed that has been docked in the past, as I have no experiance.

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I soooooo know how you feel- Izzy the dog I look after permenantly for a friend untill she is well enough has just done this to her tail and we have tried everything so that it is bandaged but cant get the bandage to stay on long enough as she wags her tail. It also drives me mad- the banging of the tail against the radiators/walls/floor at 5am lol but in all seriousness- she would be less prone to injury without the tail- she is suffering more now she has it- than if she didnt.

 

[Oneofthepack]

[ QUOTE ]
The reall probel mis ( as someone who works weimaraners) is that they have been docked for so many years that none breeds for the tail ( although that will change now) so as a resutl the tail of most traditionally docked breeds is very thin and not up to the job.[ QUOTE ]

What job is that then..wagging?

 

[flash1]

Puppies yelp when tails docked, as would you if some one cut of your little finger without pain relief!

 

[kirstyhen]

[ QUOTE ]
Puppies yelp when tails docked, as would you if some one cut of your little finger without pain relief!

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Puppies tails at 3 days old are little more than gristle, also their nervous system is not fully developed so what they feel is not comparitive to what we would feel. Their tails are certainly no where near the same as our little finger at that stage!
The tail then heals rapidly, unlike an amputaion operation, which involves anesthetic, cutting through a fully developed limb and a lengthy healing process.

Our pups made no fuss whatsoever when docked, however one of them screamed the place down and bled profusly when it was microchipped. And yes they were docked legally.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

Thanks Henmeister you saved me typing all that out

What she said flash12

 

[dun_in]

I've been reading this with interest. I support docking for medical/welfare reasons and for true working dogs where relevant. However you see far more docked puppies for sale than there can be working homes. The ads never say that the dogs are for working homes only, though they sometimes say working parents or legally docked.

I must admit that I am currently looking for a pet dog and recently enquired about one only to find out that it was docked - pretty non standard for the breed for many years (I've never seen a docked one). It put me off and I'm still looking (aren't I shallow?). The dog is still available (and I'm still wondering if I could cope with a docked tail) but I'd really miss the full tail. Even many years ago as a child I felt that my docked terrier had something important missing and couldn't understand why it had been done.

 

[flash1]

If thats what you want to think, its your opinion. Pups tails have bone, nerves, blood supply etc. Its not uncommon for pups to bleed to death if its done wrong, Id call that more than gristle.

 

[kirstyhen]

[ QUOTE ]
If thats what you want to think, its your opinion. Pups tails have bone, nerves, blood supply etc. Its not uncommon for pups to bleed to death if its done wrong, Id call that more than gristle.

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If the puppies you've seen docked have bone in their tails, then they are being docked far too late!! The reason they are done so young is because of the fact it is gristle.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

I always thought that docking was done at the same time as dew clawing, i.e. about 3 days old?

 

[kirstyhen]

Yup, 3 days old. I think it is after 5 days that you begin to be cutting through bone, and therefore need anesthetic.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

Hmmm, well, I guess this is one of those things where the two sides will never agree...

And I have heroically restrained myself from adding something emotive to that

 

[kirstyhen]

Well done, I tried throughout the whole thread, but failed miserabley

TBH I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions really, I just like putting mine across

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I don't think you failed miserably The Henmeister, you haven't even commented on my reply and I thought it clearly said that I'm against docking?

Maybe it was to long and nobody read it...

 

[kirstyhen]

I did read it, I just thought I written far too many replies on this thread and people would be getting bored of seeing my name pop up

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Yippie you read it!

Well if you have any argument that you think can change my mind on believing that they continue to breed the wrong dogs, feel free. I'm far from bored of seeing your name.

When the SKK closed the loophole that especially Doberman and Rottweiler breeders had been using after that docking was in general banned in Sweden (as I recall, they said the puppies was born abroad, in a country allowing docking and now SKK rules says something with the meaning that if you own the bitch and you live and work in Sweden, your bitch can whelp her puppies wherever you want but you must follow SKK docking rules, if you want them registered in SKK), anyhow when the loophole closed, there was talk about applying for permission to cross Doberman with Smålandsstövare ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sm%C3%A5landsst%C3%B6vare ) , a scent hound breed carrying a gene for natural bobtails.
Västgötaspets/Swedish Vallhund also carries a gene for natural bobtails, as do your Welsh Corgi Pembroke and some other breeds. However since the gene does not equal 100 % bobtails, you will still get some puppies with complete tails and the plans with crossing Doberman and Smålandsstövare, have never left the drawing board as far as I know. But it still shows that there is clearly breeding options out there, besides breeding for more sturdy tails, that would lead to a decreased need for docking.

 

[kirstyhen]

I definately think the way forward if a complete ban is to come in is to breed with tails in mind. However the trouble is what if the short tails are all attached to crappy dogs that have as much working instict as a pair of socks!?

The bobtail gene in occurs naturally in some breeds, the Brittany being the closetst to the Spaniels over here. However it is sometimes associated with spinal problems so by crossing it in, you would be essentially introducing a genetic defect into the breed.

It has been done before; a geneticist made bobtailed boxers by crossing them with corgis and after 7 or 8 generations produced a show winning boxer which naturally had no tail.

http://www.steynmere.com/BOBTAILS.html

But to do this to a breed as a whole would result in so much inbreeding and associated health problems it would not be a morally sensible thing to do. Even in bobtail breeds people seldom breed two bob together as pups with two bobtail genes tend to die

 

[FinnishLapphund]

The link doesn't work for me but anyhow I do know that neither of the options that I've mentioned about changing the breeding, is easy to actually do in reality. And it isn't made easier by that the situation has been solved for x hundred years by cutting off the problem and forgetting about it, so it would be a long process but nothing will change with the current rules.

 

[flash1]

I take it that you are a qualified vet to be able to say that?
I have seen and heard pups being docked and nothing will convince me that it is not a barbaric and outdated practice.

Yes some working dogs may injure their tails but a small minority, this does not justify docking all pups of working breeds.
It is already illegal for anyone but a vet to dock tails and the sooner it is banned completly the better.

 

[3BayGeldings]

(disclaimer: i'm not here to join in the debate - i know bugger all about docking!)

Is it true puppies dont have bones in their tails until they are 5 days old?