Taking the P*** or misunderstood?

[be positive]

Mulling over a few recent threads on horses that are less than cooperative when ridden, I agree with the opinion that they cannot take the P*** but they can and do push the boundaries and test their riders, often when they are unsure of what is required of them, if they "get away" with a minor misdemeanour this can escalate until they are being "difficult" and the rider is struggling to cope.

This can be a horse that one day hesitates passing the gate of the arena or leaving the yard, if it is not immediately picked up on and encouraged forward within no time it can be a nappy horse hanging to the gate/ being difficult to get out hacking that requires some remedial training.
Or a horse that runs out going into a jump, drops its shoulder and the rider falls off, the next time the rider feels it happening rather than sitting up and correcting the horse they get tense anticipating the fall and end up once more on the floor because the horse has been allowed to go past once more, this horse then gets labeled as a "dirty stopper" because it has reacted to a lack of guidance.

There are numerous scenarios, most will be dealt with before they become an issue by a relatively experienced rider but for many less experienced things will spiral out of control before they even realise there is a problem, all horses, even the "perfect" schoolmaster will test the boundaries at times, they are going to take moments of weakness, a lapse in concentration and exploit it, it is not taking the P*** they are reactive, it is not planned but they do take advantage of certain situations and the effect can be to destroy the trust the rider had in it, if they get good support things can be turned around but all too often the instructor/ trainer comes along and decides it is the horse that is "difficult"

I am sure we have all met the less than cooperative horse, some we have taken on, sorted out and enjoyed but there are many out there that will not be so lucky.

Not sure where this is going but maybe a few stories of those that were not easy that came good, found a place in the world and gave pleasure would make interesting reading for people who do own a horse that they feel is taking the P***, it may help them realise that horses react to what they see as danger, lack of guidance, lack of confidence and don't set out to be awkward, if they are unsure they revert to being a horse and tend to forget some of their training.

 

[JennBags]

This year I've been moving forward with my horse and he's been unhelpful to me. As my riding has improved, he has got worse and worse. He's been labelled as all sorts, mainly as a git as sometimes he really helps out and other times when it's all been set up well, he's dumped me. He's just been diagnosed as bilaterally lame behind, he has been I think since December last year. I haven't spotted it, my instructors haven't spotted it, I've been away at camp with different instructors, none of which have spotted it and he has regular physio which also hasn't picked up on it (not that I'd really expect that to).

So my point is that there is often a reason the horse is misbehaving, or not behaving as expected, or it feels like he's taking the pee. My horse has been trying to tell me for months but he's such a kind a willing soul, he hasn't been shouting loudly enough, and I've been ignoring him. I'm sure there are a few "bad" horses out there but on the whole they are kind and gentle and willing animals who only want to please. If they're not acting the way you want them to, maybe there's a reason, maybe they're genuinely frightened, maybe they're in pain, but I don't believe they are out to get us, and if we react to them in that way then we are doing them a dis-service.

 

[be positive]

Yes I did realise I forgot to mention that it may well be pain related but I was more thinking of the horse that is sound but is not quite as expected, so many people forget they have minds of their own or when they do remember they think they are plotting rather than reacting.

Sorry yours has proved to be unsound JB it is unusual that none of the pros have picked it up in some way.

 

[Nudibranch]

Not sure if this meets the criteria but I've a five year old who is out of a very quirky mare and he's inherited her sharpness to a certain extent, but also her boldness and brains. He's also a very big animal and outgrew his predicted height by well over a hand. Over the years he's been called all sorts of rude names by various horsey locals, and was predicted to be a complete loon before I backed him. I have no doubt whatsoever he could very easily be. But he's not. Yes he's had plenty of testing moments and he is continually asking his own questions. With him, as I am sure for so many, it's a case of consistency, firmness but also gentleness. I don't let anything develop into an argument but I do always get my way, even if that means a good long look or some repetition in passing the scary bin or whatever. I guess that's largely because he trusts me. The horrible tractor incident last week is in the past now and we've successfully seen others without a hitch.
Anyway bottom line is he's a star under saddle and said locals have done nothing but complement him!

 

[nato]

bepositive you actually gave me a lot of advice on my horse and I've noticed huge changes in him, so thank you.

When I tried him he was an angel, did everything I asked of him, I hacked, tried him at new venues etc - he was great, so kind and a lovely person. Got him home and he was very different to the horse I bought - reluctant to go forward, grumpy, and very herd bound. He would nap leaving the yard, going into or out of the warmup ring at shows, and sometimes I couldn't even get him from the car park to the arena. He would go anywhere led by me or another horse/car/bike/person but not alone or as lead file.

I lost a lot of confidence over just a couple of months, and was really upset that I had bought the wrong horse and might have to either sell or send him away for schooling. I didn't even enjoy riding him for a while. But after a lot of research and some really good advice from both this forum and a good coach really gave me focus. I put him into 'bootcamp mode'. I focused on improving what we could improve to start - working on our schooling at home, focusing on improving the canter, and jumping which he just loves. I kept him busy by doing lots of polework and giving him a 'job' - keeping his mind occupied, his work varied and his attitude positive. I tried to slowly introduce periods of the 'tough stuff' in increments - walking to the end of the lane and back after a session, or going for a wander in the fields.

At shows I would have someone walk beside us into the arena, and then over time they would hang back until he was walking in by himself. Hacking I had a friend come out with us a couple of times to show him the routes, but honestly with the way he was having a lead horse doesn't make a difference as he just refuses point blank to go first. My instructor would follow me down the road with a schooling whip and shake it off the ground to make a noise behind him, and this would get him going forward. Then I would go up and down the road a couple times by myself, passing out the gate to the yard so he learned that we would go to the yard when I said so.

Now I am REALLY pleased to say that we hack up and down the road by ourselves, we compete at shows with no issues (including leaving the warmup and going into the main arena - I tested this by leaving the arena and going back in again!), and we most recently are happy to overtake other horses when out hacking or in a group setting.

In truth I believe that these issues stemmed from a combination of him being quirky (so I do feel like there will always be a little bit of 'questioning' in him), but mostly a lack of confidence - both in me and in himself. He had been in his previous home for three years since breaking, and I'm sure this was a major upheaval for him. I have learned over time that he thrives on a routine and is best when he is in regular work - I can tell the difference when he's had a couple days off, he is much more opinionated! But bepositive as you said - he got away with it the first few times and so it was easier to do it again once he knew he could! Once I set boundaries everything got easier.

I'm so pleased with how much progress we've made in five months and would encourage anyone feeling disheartened not to lose hope - I had the support from a really good instructor, good advice from trusted people and most of all determination. I really enjoy riding my horse and I am feeling confident about our competitive future now. I'm not certain this is the end of any challenges but I'm confident that I have everything in my toolkit to overcome them.

 

[JennBags]

Yes I did realise I forgot to mention that it may well be pain related but I was more thinking of the horse that is sound but is not quite as expected, so many people forget they have minds of their own or when they do remember they think they are plotting rather than reacting.

Sorry yours has proved to be unsound JB it is unusual that none of the pros have picked it up in some way.

Yes I wasn't very clear, I was just trying to say there's usually a reason they behave in that manner. It might be genuine fear, it might be reacting, it could be that they are just unhelpful stubborn types, but they need to be listened to whatever the reason.

Yes, it was unusual and without going into too much detail, even the vet doing the lameness workup was convinced there was nothing wrong with his legs and decided it was the SI, until she blocked out a fetlock.

 

[be positive]

Exactly the sort of positive story, especially getting over the tractor incident so quickly, it is so nice to take on one that could have been going in the wrong direction and prove people wrong.

 

[JennBags]

Nato, that's a lovely story, your horse suffered from a complete lack of confidence and instead of bullying him through it, you reassured him and gave him time. Long term that has to be the way forward!

 

[be positive]

Yes I wasn't very clear, I was just trying to say there's usually a reason they behave in that manner. It might be genuine fear, it might be reacting, it could be that they are just unhelpful stubborn types, but they need to be listened to whatever the reason.

Yes, it was unusual and without going into too much detail, even the vet doing the lameness workup was convinced there was nothing wrong with his legs and decided it was the SI, until she blocked out a fetlock.

There is usually a reason but that reason is not always fear or pain, horses need consistency, clear boundaries that are continually there and not many inexperienced riders will be clear 100% of the time so even the best, most genuine horse can quickly exploit that, it may not be intentional it is just how they are, they would do the same in the field if the herd leader became weak or infirm the younger, fitter ones will take the opportunity to "take over" it is that weakness that we need to try an avoid letting the horse sense, we don't have to bully them or beat them into submission just use our brains before they get the better of us.

 

[nato]

Nato, that's a lovely story, your horse suffered from a complete lack of confidence and instead of bullying him through it, you reassured him and gave him time. Long term that has to be the way forward!

Thanks JennBags - there have been times where I have had to be really firm with him as he really can give it to you, but I never ever bully him - when he's bold he is disciplined and when he's good he is praised lots. I also am careful never to push or overface him.

I'm sorry to hear about your horse but good on you for recognising something wasn't right - you're a great horse mom! Hopefully he will come right soon for you. You hit the nail on the head about horses not being out to get us.

 

[be positive]

nato that is great, I remember you struggling early on and thought it was lack of confidence, it nearly always is when a good horse becomes nappy out of character, by tackling it in a positive way and making life easier, rather than being aggressive, he is now trusting you and you are trusting him, confidence is the key to them enjoying their job and keeping things simple and clear will give you a good basis to build on.

 

[Dave's Mam]

It was through the support of you lot that I managed to battle my fear & get my nappy pony past the Bogey Gate & onwards & upwards. Readers take note.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Horses and dogs are opportunists. Some are far less likely to take advantage than others. For instance daughter has two young ponies. One is a very very clever and fast thinking section A, the other is a kindly Dartmoor. Daughter is 7 and very good for her age but still of course only a child. Same rider, two nice but very different ponies. The section A would soon be out of control in the wrong hands whereas the Darty would probably never progess to anything too naughty.

I was just explaining to her the other day that correcting a problem at the very beginnning the moment the horse tries it, means you have far less work than if it's allowed to do it even a few times, you'll need to correct it many many more times for the same end result.

Seeminly tiny little things, such as it won't stand tied without three haynets and a million lickets are connected to other problems in training. If it won't stand there then why would it stand to be mounted / with a rider on / patiently at a show. And so on.

 

[little_critter]

I got my first pony 5 years ago and I hold my hand up that her problems are almost certainly down to me.
She is not forward thinking but if you are firm with her (as in put the leg on and mean it) she just slams the brakes on and plants. It's as if I have to tread on egg shells all the time.
I know when it first started. She had raised liver enzymes (vet said to continue riding). She planted for the first time and because of her liver problem I thought this was causing her an issue and she got away with it.
It's been a sticking point ever since and the liver issue was resolved years ago.

Another one I wish I'd nipped in the bud.
She is a greedy girl and pulls to grass when possible. No matter how much I try to predict the pull, prevent the pull or tell her off she has always done it and I suspect always will.
Several years ago she was trying to pull to grass and I was stopping her. She was getting frustrated and started pawing the ground, at first I thought this was funny. Then the pawing became a mini rear (probably only an inch off the floor). Then the mini rear was combined with a plunge down to grass....if she did a few of these in a row it was easy to unseat me and she could scoff uninterrupted.
With 20:20 hindsight I would have not have allowed the pawing, but I wasn't to know what it would lead to.
It took me a while to outwit her and prevent her ditching me, she still tries it on every spring when we first hack on lush new grass. Luckily I have remembered how to prevent it and after 1 failed try she now gives up.

I know this sounds like we have a crap relationship and that I'm a total dunce.
Yes, I'm still learning but she has taught me a hell of a lot. She is an opinionated, independent mare with a big brain!
I love that pony, I feel her stuffiness is holding me back but knowing what an awkward ****** she can be I don't feel I can pass her on to have the arguments we had all over again. She is not forward thinking, but at the same time is not a safe ploddy hack (will be a silly ****** if she decides she wants to go home)

 

[Sukistokes2]

Every animal ( including people) will at times really try and push boundaries to get away with stuff. I totally agree that nipping it in the bud is really important. Correcting it before a problem develops would save so many problems. I Don't believe that horses set out to upset their riders or to be uncooperative , they are just not really understanding what is being asked of them. It's why in the early stages of working with Kevin I am having lessons every week. I am not inexperienced but having an objective eye on the ground has been important. I need to work out when he is being stubborn and when something is wrong. I'm more likely to give him the benifit of the doubt then my instructor. Kevin has progressed really well, with only a couple of blips. That does not mean that he is not listened to but he is expected to do as he is asked. When he acted out of character it was investigated and the problem put right.
However, some of the posts on here scream of horses being in pain. People sometimes want easy options and don't want the bother of checking things out. Yes be firm but don't ignore the signs of discomfort. It's not nice when your horse really has to show you when it's in pain.

 

[be positive]

little critter she is teaching you loads which you are learning from but you should not be "sitting on eggshells" that is her being in control and not allowing you to ride her in the way you want, if she could listen before she got away with it then she should be able to do so again, maybe now is the time to start to get through it, you have broken the other bad habits, with some help you could get through this, if you can find the way for her to work with you you could progress as you would like.

You don't sound like a dunce just a normal owner who has at times inadvertently allowed the horse to take charge, you realised you made a mistake and dealt with it and now have just one issue to try and fix, I suspect the pulling to grass would go if you could tell her you really mean go forward, have you tried giving her a scoop of chop before riding so she has no reason to be greedy? worth a try and it may make a difference to her attitude.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I got my first pony 5 years ago and I hold my hand up that her problems are almost certainly down to me.
She is not forward thinking but if you are firm with her (as in put the leg on and mean it) she just slams the brakes on and plants. It's as if I have to tread on egg shells all the time.
I know when it first started. She had raised liver enzymes (vet said to continue riding). She planted for the first time and because of her liver problem I thought this was causing her an issue and she got away with it.
It's been a sticking point ever since and the liver issue was resolved years ago.

Another one I wish I'd nipped in the bud.
She is a greedy girl and pulls to grass when possible. No matter how much I try to predict the pull, prevent the pull or tell her off she has always done it and I suspect always will.
Several years ago she was trying to pull to grass and I was stopping her. She was getting frustrated and started pawing the ground, at first I thought this was funny. Then the pawing became a mini rear (probably only an inch off the floor). Then the mini rear was combined with a plunge down to grass....if she did a few of these in a row it was easy to unseat me and she could scoff uninterrupted.
With 20:20 hindsight I would have not have allowed the pawing, but I wasn't to know what it would lead to.
It took me a while to outwit her and prevent her ditching me, she still tries it on every spring when we first hack on lush new grass. Luckily I have remembered how to prevent it and after 1 failed try she now gives up.

I know this sounds like we have a crap relationship and that I'm a total dunce.
Yes, I'm still learning but she has taught me a hell of a lot. She is an opinionated, independent mare with a big brain!
I love that pony, I feel her stuffiness is holding me back but knowing what an awkward ****** she can be I don't feel I can pass her on to have the arguments we had all over again. She is not forward thinking, but at the same time is not a safe ploddy hack (will be a silly ****** if she decides she wants to go home)

Raised liver enzymes, planting and a stuffy attitude would all point to PSSM or another muscle myopathy.

 

[be positive]

Raised liver enzymes, planting and a stuffy attitude would all point to PSSM or another muscle myopathy.

That came to my mind a few minutes ago and I was just about to post the same, it is certainly worth looking into.

 

[scats]

I absolutely hate when people use the phrase 'taking the p*ss' with regards horses. Horses do not have the intellect to wake up in the morning and decide they are going to be awkward just for the sake of it, and this is what that expression conjures up for me.

I am a great believer that horses are simply opportunists and they will take the easiest way out if they believe it has even been offered to them very slightly. A natural follower of the herd will become nappy if he doesn't feel much confidence in the person handling or riding him, he's not done it because he has decided to make life difficult for his human, but simply because he feels more comfortable and safe at home/near his friends and would quite like to remain there!

Often behaviours then become habit, again, interpreted wrongly by many people as 'always taking the p*ss'.

I'm just glad that horses don't have that level of intellect or else we would all be screwed!

 

[Woolly Hat n Wellies]

My gelding has been accused of taking the p*ss so many times. I've posted a lot about him before, but recently I feel like we've been making real progress. The difference has been that my instructor has MADE me trust him. A year ago I would have fallen about laughing at the idea that I would canter "Billy No-Brakes" around a large arena with reins like washing lines, but I did. (I realise washing-line reins are not desirable, but this was practice in controlling his speed with my legs and seat, and a demonstration that I could trust him not to perform the 'wall of death' around the arena side!) The harder I've pushed him, the more and better he's responded. I've had years of people telling me he's bad, he's rude, he's thick, he's a tank, he doesn't listen, he doesn't WANT to listen, and, yes, he's taking the p*ss, but having gone with my instructor, and taken 16 years' worth of bad habits back down to groundwork and restarting like a newly broken horse, it's become clear that he just didn't KNOW what was being asked of him. He'd learned that legs on meant go as fast as you can, a pull meant pull back, any movement of the legs and seat whatsoever meant go faster, and a sock in the gob meant stop... in a minute... after I thump up and down on you a bit and hurt your back. Once something is broken down into baby steps and really laid out for him, he picks it up really quickly, and because he understands what he's being asked for, he's happy, relaxed, and willing to do it. Our biggest achievement so far is that we can canter, and then continue schooling. It wasn't so long ago that you got one shot at canter, and whether you got it or not, the only thing he could do afterwards was walk home on a long rein because any form of pressure made him so anxious he'd be jogging, scooting forwards, and throwing his ears up your nose. Last night I cantered, changed the rein, cantered again, and then continued working in trot. There's still a long way to go, but he's a completely different horse.

That being said, I think a lot of horses can size a person up at a glance, and I think they know how far they'll be able to push someone to get away with not doing something they don't really want to do. I don't think it's a pre-planned "I can take the p*ss here" but more a realisation that someone (person or another horse in the field) is a bit timid, or a bit lacking in confidence, and so they don't take what that person asks them to do so seriously as they would a more confident person. Perhaps they don't have confidence in what they're being asked to do because it's not put across with enough conviction - like me with my lack of confidence versus my newfound greater positivity. The person lacks some authority, and the instructions therefore come across as optional rather than absolute. They can read people rather than plot against them. I hope that makes sense!

 

[be positive]

WHnW you have found a super instructor, one who realised that the horse did not understand even the basics of what was being asked of him and he is now showing that he is not thick, difficult or taking the p but just didn't understand the questions, so sad that it took 16 years to find the right person and also that you kept going with a horse that many would have got rid of years ago, may you enjoy the rest of your journey together.

I agree horses are good at reading people, body language and that they know when to push their luck, which is why if you show you are confident, even if inside you are not, they will trust you and you can trust them.

 

[little_critter]

Oh, I've really told her I mean forward. I've also fed before riding.
Unfortunately she is a grass addict. Nothing else tops grass. I've developed a mind like a pony so I can spot the bits she is likely to go for because if I can catch her in that first millisecond when the thought crosses her mind I can prevent her snatching. Once she is moving I'm simply not strong enough to win that tug of war.
I do have a good instructor who teaches through positive reinforcement. We have made some good progress but she will always default to plant if there is something she doesn't like.
We have also spent thousands on vet checks etc etc etc.
I've never looked at Pssm though so will check with vet at he next mot. Is it a blood check? Would a regular blood test pick it up as she's had two this year which came back normal (micro and haematology)

 

[FfionWinnie]

What type of horse is she LC. You can get a hair test for type one for 30 from Animal Genetics. The type 2 test should be available soon from Equiseq.

 

[Equi]

Mine got a bit naughty with the gate. It's muchly my fault cause I have a few issues with what way we go in the arena and usually my fave place to stop is the gate cause I know he will stop. Obviously now I'm confident and don't want to stop he thinks he must stop! I've been spending a lot of time now working past the gate and away from it and having down time at the other end (which happens to be the spooky corner)

Last week Wes been really working on going past the gate with no asking and I always open the gate and have him stand (to help with his impatience for standing) and by golly he walked past the gate then stood where I asked for a full ten seconds (more if I had wanted)

The best bit was his sharer text the next day to say "he just stood still for me!!" And I had not told her I was working on anything lol

 

[little_critter]

Breeding unknown but she looks like a dales (poss a bit lighter in bone)

 

[Llanali]

I'm another who thinks that they Aren't out to get us.

I do however, think that some of them have a wicked sene of humour. My daughter's pony is a classic; a saint with children, he is sometimes, and at random, a witch with adults. He's not scared- I know what his scared looks like. There's no pattern to it, no triggers (that I can decipher) and apparently no reason other than that he genuinely seems to find the whole thing entertaining to fling doors open, throw buckets at you, dance away when you pick his feet out, monkey around with his headcollar, squeeze through a gate to splash you in mud, jump in a puddle to slosh water, and generally be a bit of an oaf. He does escalate it to hooning around before allowing you to catch him, as if to assert the fact that you can only catch him because he deigns to be caught.


Nothing really nasty, nothing aggressive at all, just time wasting, a bit of a practical joker and somewhat infuriating.

So I do think there's an element of intent and forethought because he does definitely have a gleam.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

The most challenging, unpredictable horse I've ever had was eventually found to be completely intolerant of all cereals and refined sugars. Even the tiniest amount set her off. She wasn't even testing the boundaries, in reality, she was ill and could not bear to be touched sometimes. I stopped ridng her on the road after the occasion when I asked her to legyield into the sde of a narrow road to allow a car to pass and she went the opposite way. Shortly after that incident, I found that she had 'heatlumps' under the saddle, which certainly hadn't been there when I tacked up.
She certainly taught me to check and check again if the horse appears to be unwilling, there is very likely to be a reason for unwanted behavour. Yes, some riders are over-horsed but most horses want to co-operate and if they are not doing, they are most probably trying to tell you something. Of course what they are trying to tell you could be that you are not asking correctly!

 

[oldie48]

The best piece of advice that was given to me (by Adam Kemp, I think) is that every interaction with a horse is a training situation whether you mean it to be or not. Every time you lead a horse, ride it, groom it etc you are training it, so make sure you are training it to be what you want it to be. I have found it is very easy to ignore something very small and have it escalate into something that becomes a real problem when if it had been nipped in the bud at the start it would not have been a problem at all!

 

[windseywoo]

I think my horse takes the piss and have seen how he has taken something he has seen and turned it into unacceptable behaviour. I bought a new horse 2 years ago who wasn't used to being tied up outside stables, she was used to being inside a dutch barn system. The first time she had the wind blow up around the stables she pulled back and almost pulled the front of the stable off before the rope broke (other things going on at time in which we couldn't get to her to unclip her/ release quick release knot). Now obviously she was frightened and we have tried to work with her to help her tie up better, but if the wind picks up she's better being groomed in the middle of the field.
However my other horse has picked up on this now, whereas before he would stand still and even if frightened you'd get him to move forward. He just chucks his head up, pulls back and breaks the ropes every time. He's not the sharpest tool in the box, but with this he's definitely picked it up as a learned behaviour. It really infuriates me as, I'm sorry you can tell when he is taking the piss. He gets that look in his eye and I'm really running out of options as how to deal with it, as I'm slightly concerned he'll just pull the whole panel off the stable. I've had him from a youngster so I've known him all his life and it was not something I was happy about him picking up from the newbie.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

The best piece of advice that was given to me (by Adam Kemp, I think) is that every interaction with a horse is a training situation whether you mean it to be or not. Every time you lead a horse, ride it, groom it etc you are training it, so make sure you are training it to be what you want it to be. I have found it is very easy to ignore something very small and have it escalate into something that becomes a real problem when if it had been nipped in the bud at the start it would not have been a problem at all!

Absolutely!
I have said on here that every time I hack, my intention is to bring back a horse which has improved on the horse that set off. This has brought the response that hacking should be a chance for horse and rider to relax!
But, O48, as you say, that means that a slow response to the aids, a halfhearted transition, shuff!ing at a road end etc, that goes uncorrected means that the horse gets the idea that s/he doesn't need to bother !listening go the rider. Which in the worst case scenario can be dangerous - what if the horse shuffles itself and rider under a vehicle at the road end where it has learned that it needn't stand still?