Talk to me about Navicular

[Shutterbug]

Arion is a 16'2 WB gelding, almost 15 years old. Never had a day of front leg lameness in the 9 years I have owned him, went a little lame whilst out hacking a week ago. Fine on a straight line initially but going between hind left and front right leg lameness on a circle. Suspected an abcess, poulticed for 3 days - nothing, no heat, no swelling, no knocks or bruises. He is shod in front only but has always had one foot smaller than the other and a slightly upright pastern as a result. He was diagnosed with mild arthritic changes in his hind left 5 years ago, has had cortisone injections x 3 and no issues in the last 2 years with his hind legs other than general winter stiffness.

Vet came out yesterday, after initial exam and trotting up he nerve blocked the lower area of the leg and Arion showed around an 80% improvement on a circle, was fine behind. He is to attend for xrays in a few days and has been given Danalon in the meantime and I have been advised to follow his routine as normal. I had the farrier remove his shoes this morning pending xrays

Vet has mentioned possibilites of issues with the coffin joint, pedal bone or possible Navicular. I have done some reading and looking back now the signs are all there for Navicular. His smallish hoof, he's had the occasional short striding, stumbling, he has been very lazy of late - my big striding warmblood has become a sluggish donkey over the last 3/4 weeks.

I know nobody can tell me if he does have Navicular, only a vet can confirm that but I am so terribly worried about him - I have no experience with this kind of condition and no idea what to expect going forward if he does have Navicular, or indeed a problem with his coffin joint or pedal bone? So, I am looking for your experiences, good and bad - recovery time, shoes on or off? Remedial shoeing? Anyone have similar symptoms with their own horse?

 

[Polonaise]

"Navicular" is a bit of a catch all term, it has historically been used for pain at the back of the hoof or changes in the navicular bone visible on x rays. With the advent of MRI and some post mortem studies in the states it has become obvious that these changes are secondary to a variety of other injuries within the foot. Your vet will likely perform more specific nerve blocks to localise the part of the hoof effected and perform x rays to check the bony structures and hoof balance. MRI is needed if you want a definitive diagnosis.
There are various treatments available to try and slow the progression including remedial shoeing, restricted work and an assortment of medications. Some work some don't, whether they work for your horse is a bit of a gamble but in some cases horses can be kept going for years with careful management.
There is one "treatment" that has been shown, under the right circumstances, to actually improve the lesions. Rockley Farm has a success rate that no other therapy or combination of has been able to rival. Managing a horse without shoes is not always easy and is not for everyone but is certainly your best chance of getting, and keeping your horse sound. Look up their blog and click on key blog posts for more information.

 

[stencilface]

Ditto above. You need X-rays and or an mri to determine what's going on really. These days it's referred to as navicular syndrome to cover an assortment of foot ailments!

My boy is at Rockley at the moment for ddft damage in both from feet, I believe in the past without scans etc this could have been termed navicular, or at least would be heading along the same lines. If he has a small hoof, is this shod? Has he ever had a period without shoes, what do his feet do then?

 

[Leo Walker]

"Navicular" is a bit of a catch all term, it has historically been used for pain at the back of the hoof or changes in the navicular bone visible on x rays. With the advent of MRI and some post mortem studies in the states it has become obvious that these changes are secondary to a variety of other injuries within the foot. Your vet will likely perform more specific nerve blocks to localise the part of the hoof effected and perform x rays to check the bony structures and hoof balance. MRI is needed if you want a definitive diagnosis.
There are various treatments available to try and slow the progression including remedial shoeing, restricted work and an assortment of medications. Some work some don't, whether they work for your horse is a bit of a gamble but in some cases horses can be kept going for years with careful management.
There is one "treatment" that has been shown, under the right circumstances, to actually improve the lesions. Rockley Farm has a success rate that no other therapy or combination of has been able to rival. Managing a horse without shoes is not always easy and is not for everyone but is certainly your best chance of getting, and keeping your horse sound. Look up their blog and click on key blog posts for more information.

This

 

[Shutterbug]

Ditto above. You need X-rays and or an mri to determine what's going on really. These days it's referred to as navicular syndrome to cover an assortment of foot ailments!

My boy is at Rockley at the moment for ddft damage in both from feet, I believe in the past without scans etc this could have been termed navicular, or at least would be heading along the same lines. If he has a small hoof, is this shod? Has he ever had a period without shoes, what do his feet do then?

Thank you both - I only removed his back shoes about 4 months ago and felt he was coping well - a bit footsy to begin with but he has good solid feet behind and the farrier was happy with him. He has never had his fronts removed, when he loses a front he tends to act like his leg is falling off but I will purchase good quality boots if required.

 

[applecart14]

Tildren is a good treatment for navicular, along with remedial shoeing if it proves that this is why your boy has.
This is a really good fact sheet about Tildren.http://www.chilternequine.com/treatments/tildren/
Here is another one: http://www.tildren.com/en/Navicular-syndrome/Treatment

 

[WindyStacks]

Rockley.

There is no supplement on earth will reverse changes deep within the hoof capsule.

 

[ycbm]

Tildren is a good treatment for navicular, along with remedial shoeing if it proves that this is why your boy has.
This is a really good fact sheet about Tildren.http://www.chilternequine.com/treatments/tildren/
Here is another one: http://www.tildren.com/en/Navicular-syndrome/Treatment

I believe, having read a vet on the subject, that there is no clinical evidence that tildren helps in cases of palmar hoof pain. This is predominantly because tildren is for bone problems, and palmar hoof pain is very rarely a bone problem.

 

[ycbm]

http://www.doctorramey.com/tildren/

 

[applecart14]

Rockley.

There is no supplement on earth will reverse changes deep within the hoof capsule.

Windystacks - if this was aimed at me, (and I have read through the previous posts and can't find anything relating to supplements), I did not suggest giving the horse a supplement. I suggested giving him a medication which is totally different.

I have to say that I disagree with YCBM . There have been clinical trials to suggest Tildren is very good for navicular http://horsetalkmagazine.com/will-tildren-help-your-horse/

Clinical trials have shown that Tildren is effective in treating navicular disease when given at a total dose of 1 milligram per kilogram of body weight broken up into 10 daily intravenous injections. A recent research study showed that 100 percent of horses suffering from acute navicular disease (affected by the disease for six months or less) responded to Tildren treatment, whereas only 60 percent of horses that had chronic disease (affected by the disease for greater than six months) responded, and that of the horses with more acute navicular disease, 75 percent returned to normal work within six months.
Another website: http://www.horsehints.org/OsphosTildren.htm
OSPHOS® is an injectable bisphosphonate solution for the control of clinical signs associated with navicular syndrome in horses four years of age and older. OSPHOS® inhibits bone resorption by binding to calcium phosphate crystals (inhibiting their formation and dissolution) and by exerting direct cellular effects on osteoclasts. Dechra's OSPHOS® has the unique advantage of intramuscular injection and is a ready-to-use solution that does not require mixing or reconstitution. In clinical trials evaluating 86 horses, clinical improvement is most evident at 2 months post-treatment with 74.7% of the horses experiencing improvement in their lameness score. For horses that initially respond to OSPHOS®, it may be readministered at 3-to 6-month intervals based on recurrence of clinical signs. The improvement seen in lameness scores during the OSPHOS® field trial was achieved in the absence of concurrent corrective shoeing, pain medication or NSAIDs."

 

[indychick30]

My boy had similar symptoms to you and after x - rays he was diagnosed with Navicular syndrome (as soneone said further up, its a catch all term) We underwent remideal shoeing, box rest and steroid injections into the joint. He was sound for a few months but then went lame again. Gave him a few months off, brought him back into work and again he was sound for a few months before going lame. At that point I pushed for MRI to get a more definite picture of what was going on and he showed up with a lesion on his DDFT. Usually with navicular type changes, I believe the initial signs/cause are soft tissue damage and the more time goes on, the more likely you are to see boney changes (I'm a newbie to this so someone correct me if I'm wrong). After the MRI we continued with corrective shoeing included wedges and heart bars. He had a little improvement but still wasnt 100% then after his third round of corrective shoeing he was worse again so I decided enough was enough and booked him in to Rockley for rehab barefoot. He's only been there for 3 weeks but already he is improving and I am pleasantly surpised given he's a thorougbred with what I thought were terrible feet! His name is Josh if you want to read his full update on the Rockley blog. I was never a pro barefoot person but from the hours and months of research I did I have come to the conclusion that this is probably the best (if only) chance of getting a sound horse who suggers with caudal heel/navicuar syndrome.
Will keep everything crossed for you. It is a real emotional rollercoaster but I hope you find what works for you and that your neddy gets better.

 

[ycbm]

Windystacks - if this was aimed at me, (and I have read through the previous posts and can't find anything relating to supplements), I did not suggest giving the horse a supplement. I suggested giving him a medication which is totally different.

I have to say that I disagree with YCBM . There have been clinical trials to suggest Tildren is very good for navicular http://horsetalkmagazine.com/will-tildren-help-your-horse/

Clinical trials have shown that Tildren is effective in treating navicular disease when given at a total dose of 1 milligram per kilogram of body weight broken up into 10 daily intravenous injections. A recent research study showed that 100 percent of horses suffering from acute navicular disease (affected by the disease for six months or less) responded to Tildren treatment, whereas only 60 percent of horses that had chronic disease (affected by the disease for greater than six months) responded, and that of the horses with more acute navicular disease, 75 percent returned to normal work within six months.
Another website: http://www.horsehints.org/OsphosTildren.htm
OSPHOS® is an injectable bisphosphonate solution for the control of clinical signs associated with navicular syndrome in horses four years of age and older. OSPHOS® inhibits bone resorption by binding to calcium phosphate crystals (inhibiting their formation and dissolution) and by exerting direct cellular effects on osteoclasts. Dechra's OSPHOS® has the unique advantage of intramuscular injection and is a ready-to-use solution that does not require mixing or reconstitution. In clinical trials evaluating 86 horses, clinical improvement is most evident at 2 months post-treatment with 74.7% of the horses experiencing improvement in their lameness score. For horses that initially respond to OSPHOS®, it may be readministered at 3-to 6-month intervals based on recurrence of clinical signs. The improvement seen in lameness scores during the OSPHOS® field trial was achieved in the absence of concurrent corrective shoeing, pain medication or NSAIDs."

How many horses were there in the studies. Who did the evaluation of improvement (they sometimes just contact the owner and ask them). Were MRI scans taken before treatment and did the tildren improve soft tissue lesions. I the study of 86 horses, what happens after two months of two months is peak improvement. What does 74% improved mean - still lame, just less lame? Does tildren act as a long term pain killer. Who paid for the studies. What other studies exist showing that it doesn't work.

And so on .....

I don't expect you to answer those and I'll admit that I can't be bothered to research them, because I think I already know a much better way to cure navicular.


Friend's horse had Osphos at huge expense. Even more lame at two months. Shoes removed. Sound at five weeks, remains sound at three months and now starting galloping work with a view to hunting the last day of the season.

 

[Shutterbug]

My boy had similar symptoms to you and after x - rays he was diagnosed with Navicular syndrome (as soneone said further up, its a catch all term) We underwent remideal shoeing, box rest and steroid injections into the joint. He was sound for a few months but then went lame again. Gave him a few months off, brought him back into work and again he was sound for a few months before going lame. At that point I pushed for MRI to get a more definite picture of what was going on and he showed up with a lesion on his DDFT. Usually with navicular type changes, I believe the initial signs/cause are soft tissue damage and the more time goes on, the more likely you are to see boney changes (I'm a newbie to this so someone correct me if I'm wrong). After the MRI we continued with corrective shoeing included wedges and heart bars. He had a little improvement but still wasnt 100% then after his third round of corrective shoeing he was worse again so I decided enough was enough and booked him in to Rockley for rehab barefoot. He's only been there for 3 weeks but already he is improving and I am pleasantly surpised given he's a thorougbred with what I thought were terrible feet! His name is Josh if you want to read his full update on the Rockley blog. I was never a pro barefoot person but from the hours and months of research I did I have come to the conclusion that this is probably the best (if only) chance of getting a sound horse who suggers with caudal heel/navicuar syndrome.
Will keep everything crossed for you. It is a real emotional rollercoaster but I hope you find what works for you and that your neddy gets better.

I have been reading the Rockley stuff with great interest. The farrier took Arions shoes off yesterday morning and he was turned straight out - he was brought in last night and this morning I took him into the indoor school just to see if there was a difference in his movement without the shoes. He was still a little off but he was nowhere near as lame as he was the day before with the shoes on and he seemed a littler perkier to be honest - yes he is on Danolin but only half of what a horse his size would normally be on and I wouldn't expect such a drastic improvement after one sachet - not sure if I'm being overly hopeful though.

Xrays are booked for 8th Feb so we will have to wait and see but thank you for all the responses guys I do appreciate it

 

[WindyStacks]

My comment wasn't aimed at anyone - and perhaps "supplement" was the wrong word. No injection/medication/supplement/aloe vera/turmeric will reverse the physical changes within the capsule.

Shoes off, move, balance, time, patience, balance, repeat ad nauseum.

 

[Shutterbug]

OK we have had x-rays and I have spoken to both the farrier and the vet at length and I have to say I have never in my life disagreed with either but I am not convinced that their recommendation going forward is going to make a difference or help him.

Here are the x-rays of both his fronts

Vet has advised that his navicular shows no signs of wear that would not be expected of a horse his age - he has diagnosed with lameness due to Palmer foot pain probably due to an injury/trauma to the soft tissues in the same region. He has advised an MRI would be needed to make a definitive diagnosis but the treatment would be the same. So, no navicular disease, good news there. So he sends the x-rays to my farrier and has a chat with him, I then talk to the farrier who says we are to treat for navicular syndrome/heel pain and he is to be shod as he has been shoeing him for the last 3 shoeings. He has been shoeing him a bit wider on the small hoof to encourage the smaller hoof to grow down straighter and make the pastern a little less upright. I have made it abundantly clear to both that I am looking for a barefoot remedy and am getting no support from either

He has now had no front shoes on since 27/1 and whilst he is footsy on stony or hard ground (the recent frost over the last few days has had him walking like a 90 year old) when he is in loose worked in the school, the change in his movement is very noticeable and quite remarkable - he is moving in a way I have never seen him move in 9 years, he seems free in front and looser and seems to be more comfortable. I know I am not qualified and please tell me if I am being stupid (I have already had some comments of "omg he needs shoes" from liveries and my farrier is not budging. I am, as I mentioned earlier, perfectly prepared to give him as much time off as he needs to let him grow what he needs and keep on top of it with good trimming. I have sent off his x-rays and an email to Rockley to ask if they can tell me if they think I am doing the right thing and I have contacted an experienced barefoot trimmer to ask if we can have a chat about it - I just have this huge gut feeling that slapping shoes back on him is not going to help him but what if I'm wrong and I do him more harm than good - I'm not a farrier nor am I a vet so how can I go against what they advise? I actually cried with frustration when I came off the phone to my farrier - not his fault hes lovely and very good at what he does but I just felt he was not listening to me and was completely dismissing what I was asking - just kept saying "not with his feet" but when I took his back shoes off (which he is coping great with) and I asked about also taking off the fronts before all this - farrier was fine with it - I'm scared of making the wrong choice for him, I dont feel qualified to go against my vet/farrier but I cant shift this gut feeling at all. Should I just let them get on with it and keep my mouth shut or should I push for barefoot rehab and reassess in 6 months and if its not working then go down the shoe route?

 

[indychick30]

Personally, I would stick with your gut feeling if you can. I had the same gut feeling months before I finally made the decision to send mine to Rockley and I wish that I’d make the decision much sooner. I went along with the corrective shoeing for three rounds before I finally said enough was enough (as he was still lame, and if anything was getting worse).
I would say don’t be afraid to go against your farrier and if your vet is unsupportive of your decision then ask for a second opinion.
I know it’s scary and you say you are worried about making the wrong choice for him but bear in mind that with barefoot rehabbing, worst case scenario is that if it doesn’t work you can always put shoes back on. It won’t damage his feet in anyway and if nothing else, will improve the quality of his hoof.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I wouldn't put shoes on. The imbalance on the second x-ray is quite shocking and if you can get him walking on surfaces that he is comfortable on (especially if tarmac is a good surface for him) that imbalance should come right with time. I personally prefer this to a sudden change via trimming and sticking a shoe on, which can be hard on their joints. The other hoof looks very flat and walking on confortable surfaces would do that one good too. I can imagine that his hooves would look more like a pair after a successful BF rehab.

 

[Shutterbug]

You have no idea what a relief it is to read the two posts above - thank you both so much. I do have a friend who has been encouraging me down the barefoot route too but its always nice to hear it from other people who dont know you who can look at the situation and come to the same conclusion. Yes Faracat his imbalance is rather shocking and his left hoof has been shortened and widened so many times over the years by different farriers - I had a farrier recommended to me who completely shortened it, and then refused to see there was a problem with him having two different size feet and an upright pastern and it was done over 2 shoeings so that shows how quickly good work can be undone. That was the last time he did my horse. But with this new information and the xrays I need a different approach now - enough is enough. He is fine on tarmac so good to know that this should help with the imbalance if hes barefoot.

I will wait to hear back from Rockley and the barefoot lady and see what they say then hopefully I will have something I can back my gut instinct up with in a discussion - vet wants him without shoes for the next few weeks anyway as hes not due to be shod for another 10 days or so, this will give me time to prepare myself. Then I need to start a barefoot diary and sort out his diet which I am hoping Rockley can help me with also

 

[ester]

Please don't shoe him
Horses have remarkable ability to heal their own feet, they have shown this time and time again.

Sorry I missed this post the first time round. The issue I have with applecarts quotes on tildren research is that 'navicular syndrome' is a terribly woolly diagnosis as shown by those that have had MRIs,

F had heel pain, I didn't MRI as the treatment would be the same, it would only have been for specifics. Honestly barefoot is the best thing for long term resolution of issues. Frank had his off 2/3 years ago and sounds like he was footier than your boy to start (he had very flat soles). He is 23 this year and did 4 hours hunting and 3 hours hacking over varied terrain yesterday. We were the last of the field left as everyone else had lost a shoe by then .

Always happy to talk feet/look at hoof pics (they need to be rockley style to be helpful!)/chat diet (best starting point, tell us what he is on /general support).
Who did the barefoot lady train with?/where abouts are you?
barefoot forum here:
http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I have nothing to offer other than my vet and farrier were both very against taking my horse barefoot. She had other things diagnosed but ultimately I believe her feet were the issue, I took the opportunity of an abscess in January to take her shoes off.

She has been the soundest she has been in 12 months, we are out hacking again and even cantering.

I haven't tried her on a circle recently but when I last did although still lame so much sounder than she had been, and if I slowed her down she looked sound. Barefoot is not easy or fast, we're booting to hack and she is footy on stones and with the hard frost she looked more tentative this morning, but I'm convienced it is the right thing for her.

I don't know what to do about my farrier mind when it comes to her next appointment...

 

[Shutterbug]

I wish there was a like button on these forums - with every post I feel more and more confident I am making the right decision for him. You have no idea how relieved I am guys - thank you so much.

ester - I knew I had read that on here somewhere that someone had an older horse that was now hunting after going barefoot a few years before - I mentioned it to my friend on the phone last night lol. He is usually fed on Cherry Mollychaff with speedi beet, Baileys conditioning cubes and biotin. He gets wrapped hay when he comes in at night and has access to hay and winter grass daily. Summered out in his own 3 acre field with my other horse. Tamsin Coombs is a AANHCP Trimmer I found on their website, I have sent her an email asking for advise, not heard back yet. Thank you for the link to the barefoot forums - am going to sign up now. Here are pics of his front feet the day after his shoes were taken off (and the day he showed a remarkable 80% improvement on lameness literally overnight) I will try better next time but will be keeping a diary of his progress so will keep you updated with better piccies

front left

front right

And if you want to see before and after piccies of his backs just ask, I was very pleased with them

 

[ester]

I think we can safely say they need some work would be good to see the other views when you have them. Not bad frogs to start with though . And those heels will come back as they are quite under run.

I only asked who just because they can all trim a bit differently and I am inclined towards less is more, although Frank doesn't completely self trim despite the miles and they can need a bit of help if you don't have the rockley tracks to do it for you.

Road walking is very good for feet we started at a lowly 5 minutes . Also don't be surprised if a few weeks further down the line he goes a bit footier, the foot tends to wake up a bit as blood flow etc increases (I booted at this point for a while).

Low sugar, high fibre is the way forwards feed wise. The speedibeet is fine, a chaff with not molasses would be better (I use agrobs which is amazing, but others are available).
I would probably switch the baileys too, and start feeding micronised linseed to maintain condition (I use the technical measure of a mug a day in summer, 2 mugs in winter!) - there are other feeding alternatives like copra coolstance is maintaining condition is a problem.
Scrap the biotin, horse's make enough of their own. Select a low iron general vitamin mineral supplement (forageplus/pro hoof/equimins adv complete +others these days) - I use the equimins as F eats it .

 

[Shutterbug]

I think we can safely say they need some work would be good to see the other views when you have them. Not bad frogs to start with though . And those heels will come back as they are quite under run.

I only asked who just because they can all trim a bit differently and I am inclined towards less is more, although Frank doesn't completely self trim despite the miles and they can need a bit of help if you don't have the rockley tracks to do it for you.

Road walking is very good for feet we started at a lowly 5 minutes . Also don't be surprised if a few weeks further down the line he goes a bit footier, the foot tends to wake up a bit as blood flow etc increases (I booted at this point for a while).

Low sugar, high fibre is the way forwards feed wise. The speedibeet is fine, a chaff with not molasses would be better (I use agrobs which is amazing, but others are available).
I would probably switch the baileys too, and start feeding micronised linseed to maintain condition (I use the technical measure of a mug a day in summer, 2 mugs in winter!) - there are other feeding alternatives like copra coolstance is maintaining condition is a problem.
Scrap the biotin, horse's make enough of their own. Select a low iron general vitamin mineral supplement (forageplus/pro hoof/equimins adv complete +others these days) - I use the equimins as F eats it .

Most helpful thank you. We have lots of good tarmac roads we can ride on that are not stoney and its a 30 min hack to the forest which has stonier tracks with grass verges and grass tracks also - or we have the option of the forest in the other direction which is a 20 min hack and pure grass tracks which can only really be used in summer. We can start with 5 mins and work our way up to getting to the forest then. We also have miles and miles of road work so that will not be a problem. And now Im off to the feed shop

Thank you everyone - you have been most helpful, I really appreciate the support and advise

 

[SaffronWelshDragon]

It is very difficult to stand up to and disagree with the professionals. I took my mare barefoot a few years ago (fronts only). No reason other than I felt it was the right thing to do, she's been fantastic, I won't shoe another horse now All the best with your boy, I'm sure you are doing the right thing by him. Stick with the Phoenix forum, and look to Rockley blogs for inspiration. Looking forward to reading about his progress.

 

[stilltrying]

Some great advice already but I just wanted to add that I took my big ginger boy barefoot, not because of navicular / lameness, but because shoes were slowly but surely wrecking his feet. He is 17h tb x and would be hopping lame if he lost a shoe, but I was amazed how quickly he adapted. I started by handwalking on gravel free tarmac and did this for several weeks before riding. What was so interesting to see was the new growth in hoof coming through, the change to his hoof shape was quite dramatic. When shod he had quite flat feet, and a slightly crooked leg from the fetlock down, which meant that hoof splayed out to one side. Once the shoes were off his hoof was able to balance the kink in his leg and all round his hooves grew tighter and more upright. Fascinating stuff! : )

 

[Shutterbug]

Thank you both. It's very encouraging to hear such positive stories. Farrier is out to shoe another horse at my yard tomorrow so am bracing myself to tell him how I want to proceed. I just hope he can support us both with his transition and help us. But as someone else told me today worst case scenario he tells me he can't be involved and I find a farrier who will offer the support he needs. I am committing to this. Fair enough of it doesn't work it doesn't work and we can try it the shod way but I want to give him the best possible chance to be as nature intended and allow his hooves to be what he needs them to be.

 

[ester]

My farrier's response was well I would rather do x/y/z but it is your choice but I don't know enough about it so suggest you get someone else (all on good terms!)

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Well you know my thoughts and my opinions Hun, the back feet have changed a lot for the better in such a short time and you've seen the way my old boy who was always in shoes and shod for deviation all his days has adapted and is thriving and sound over all surfaces now

Shoes are optional, not a requirement, exactly like certain items of tack

He needs to grow what he needs, not have his feet told what they need.

 

[LD&S]

I have been reading the Rockley stuff with great interest. The farrier took Arions shoes off yesterday morning and he was turned straight out - he was brought in last night and this morning I took him into the indoor school just to see if there was a difference in his movement without the shoes. He was still a little off but he was nowhere near as lame as he was the day before with the shoes on and he seemed a littler perkier to be honest - yes he is on Danolin but only half of what a horse his size would normally be on and I wouldn't expect such a drastic improvement after one sachet - not sure if I'm being overly hopeful though.

Xrays are booked for 8th Feb so we will have to wait and see but thank you for all the responses guys I do appreciate it

I'm sure someone with more knowledge than me will be able to explain it better but I've read there is often a 'honeymoon period' when shoes are removed and 1-3 weeks after your horse will possibly be showing signs of pain/discomfort, from what I've read this is due to more feeling coming back to the feet but that in most cases it is short lived and putting shoes back on often only masks a problem.

I hope you continue to see an improvement.

 

[ycbm]

OK we have had x-rays and I have spoken to both the farrier and the vet at length and I have to say I have never in my life disagreed with either but I am not convinced that their recommendation going forward is going to make a difference or help him.

Here are the x-rays of both his fronts

Vet has advised that his navicular shows no signs of wear that would not be expected of a horse his age - he has diagnosed with lameness due to Palmer foot pain probably due to an injury/trauma to the soft tissues in the same region. He has advised an MRI would be needed to make a definitive diagnosis but the treatment would be the same. So, no navicular disease, good news there. So he sends the x-rays to my farrier and has a chat with him, I then talk to the farrier who says we are to treat for navicular syndrome/heel pain and he is to be shod as he has been shoeing him for the last 3 shoeings. He has been shoeing him a bit wider on the small hoof to encourage the smaller hoof to grow down straighter and make the pastern a little less upright. I have made it abundantly clear to both that I am looking for a barefoot remedy and am getting no support from either

He has now had no front shoes on since 27/1 and whilst he is footsy on stony or hard ground (the recent frost over the last few days has had him walking like a 90 year old) when he is in loose worked in the school, the change in his movement is very noticeable and quite remarkable - he is moving in a way I have never seen him move in 9 years, he seems free in front and looser and seems to be more comfortable. I know I am not qualified and please tell me if I am being stupid (I have already had some comments of "omg he needs shoes" from liveries and my farrier is not budging. I am, as I mentioned earlier, perfectly prepared to give him as much time off as he needs to let him grow what he needs and keep on top of it with good trimming. I have sent off his x-rays and an email to Rockley to ask if they can tell me if they think I am doing the right thing and I have contacted an experienced barefoot trimmer to ask if we can have a chat about it - I just have this huge gut feeling that slapping shoes back on him is not going to help him but what if I'm wrong and I do him more harm than good - I'm not a farrier nor am I a vet so how can I go against what they advise? I actually cried with frustration when I came off the phone to my farrier - not his fault hes lovely and very good at what he does but I just felt he was not listening to me and was completely dismissing what I was asking - just kept saying "not with his feet" but when I took his back shoes off (which he is coping great with) and I asked about also taking off the fronts before all this - farrier was fine with it - I'm scared of making the wrong choice for him, I dont feel qualified to go against my vet/farrier but I cant shift this gut feeling at all. Should I just let them get on with it and keep my mouth shut or should I push for barefoot rehab and reassess in 6 months and if its not working then go down the shoe route?

Did your vet comment on the drastic lateral imbalance in the left fore and the milder one in the right fore? The bone at the bottom - P3/coffin bone - should be parallel with the floor. No wonder he was lame in shoes!

I'd guess this has everything to do with those wonky feet and collateral ligament strain that goes with lateral imbalance.


He'll sort that out now you have his shoes off, and I'm not surprised he's moving better already.

The poster above is right, and we don't know why, but the feet seem to 'come alive' after a few days or a few weeks and can be sure when they weren't before, unrelated to wearing from work.

Watch out for spring grass though, the spring flowers are up already.