Talk to me about Navicular

[FfionWinnie]

He's your horse so you should do what you want.

However, how he is moving on a soft surface, is surely how he will move when his feet have toughened up a bit, on all surfaces.

I would absolutely follow the Rockley methodology with this horse. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

None of mine are shod and none have any good issues but I've transitioned about 9 horses now and it's honestly not that difficult.

My daughter's pony was utterly crippled without front shoes and her front feet were tiny compared to her (bare self trimming sound) back feet. I took the shoes off 18 months ago and her feet are tremendous now. She has very rubbish conformation and is 14 and I feel self trimming is absolutely the best thing for her as it is for all my others.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am late to this thread but it's shocking but not surprising to me that the farrier never pointed out to you the plight of that foot in the second picture .
If this where my horse I would defiantly go the BF route .
That does not mean the horse can never wear shoes now I have my routine sussed I move my horses between shoes and BF as it suits me .
Get the feet first book that Nic Barker wrote it will give a great overview of what your trying to achieve .
Try the horse on the horse on the forage plus performance balancers they really got my horses feet growing expensive but the best things I have found so far.
With the professionals while I would consider stretching the truth , in the best situations you would do your thing and the vet would X-ray the feet after three months and then you can see the improvement (and that is a wonderful moment ) but if the vet won't cooperate it's harder .
It's complicated if you are insured because the clock is ticking I am not so it's easier for me I am not sure I would have got started on bf if I had been as it clouds the issue .
If you meet real resistance I would consider throwing your hands in horror bursting into tears and say that's it you can't cope and you are putting him in the field not fully honest but easier , then look for professionals with a more open mind .
My best friend is an equine vet and was very very anti when I started she come round over time .

 

[stencilface]

Thumbs up OP, so glad you have made this decision, those xrays are shocking - I'm surprised he could walk at all!

Just stay firm on what you're doing. One of the main reasons I wanted to send mine to Rockley, as well we the obvious benefits for my horse was the support I would get from the experience. My 'knowledgeable' family are not really supportive (always questioning in a non helpful way about limiting grass intake etc etc), the farrier was offering advice on what other raised heel shoes we could try. I just kept schtum as couldn't face the conversation with him. I'm hoping mine will be practically self trimming with a few visits from a trimmer I've contacted.

Good luck with it, and join the Phoenix horse forum too if you want more information. I ahve to say, going barefoot has made me question so much about what I do with my horses day to day care and whether the reasons for doing things make actual sense, or whether I do them because 'thats the way things are done'

 

[ester]

Did your vet comment on the drastic lateral imbalance in the left fore and the milder one in the right fore? The bone at the bottom - P3/coffin bone - should be parallel with the floor. No wonder he was lame in shoes!

I'd guess this has everything to do with those wonky feet and collateral ligament strain that goes with lateral imbalance.


He'll sort that out now you have his shoes off, and I'm not surprised he's moving better already.

The poster above is right, and we don't know why, but the feet seem to 'come alive' after a few days or a few weeks and can be sure when they weren't before, unrelated to wearing from work.

Watch out for spring grass though, the spring flowers are up already.

Somehow I had skimmed past the xrays. If MRId I think there would be quite few soft tissue issues going on. The left fore is pretty shocking.

 

[ycbm]

Somehow I had skimmed past the xrays. If MRId I think there would be quite few soft tissue issues going on. The left fore is pretty shocking.

They are similar to one foot in the horse of a friend I am currently helping. Her vet never mentioned lateral imbalance, gave a diagnosis of navicular bone pain in a horse lame in one front foot only, treated with Osphos - for bone remineralisation - at vast expense and prescribed heart bars in which he was even more lame and began to produce wrinkles in the side of the bad foot.

He was sound on flat ground after five days without shoes. He did an hour round a farm ride with jumps earlier this week after thirteen weeks barefoot and will be doing a short day hunting before the season closes.

You've done the right thing OP. It's no guarantee but it's got a much better chance of working than any medication or shoeing.

 

[Shutterbug]

Did your vet comment on the drastic lateral imbalance in the left fore and the milder one in the right fore? The bone at the bottom - P3/coffin bone - should be parallel with the floor. No wonder he was lame in shoes!

I'd guess this has everything to do with those wonky feet and collateral ligament strain that goes with lateral imbalance.


He'll sort that out now you have his shoes off, and I'm not surprised he's moving better already.

The poster above is right, and we don't know why, but the feet seem to 'come alive' after a few days or a few weeks and can be sure when they weren't before, unrelated to wearing from work.

Watch out for spring grass though, the spring flowers are up already.

He has always had one foot smaller than the other and a slightly upright pastern - over the years I have various farriers try and fix it with corrective shoeing to various degrees of success - last year my farrier cut back on his clients and I used a guy recommended to me who shod him 3 times and undid all the good work previous farriers had done. When challenged on the phone after a shoeing which I was not present for, he said my horses hooves were fine, whilst I stood there staring at what looked like 2 hooves from from completely different horses - I was horrified and he was instantly sacked!

My current farrier was in the process of restarting the corrective shoeing process by putting on a slightly wider shoe and allowing the hoof to widen gradually when, 2 weeks after his last shoeing, he went lame.I had already removed his back shoes 6 months ago and started educating myself about BF and its benefits, I have since looked at the Rockley site, spoken to a barefoot specialist and read all the fantastic advise given by you guys and made a 100% definite decision he is going completely barefoot. I spoke to my farrier this morning and, thankfully, he has agreed to support us so long as I assure him I will keep him in the loop with everything, and x-ray him again no later than 6 months from now so that we can see if there has been an improvement in that imbalance.

 

[Shutterbug]

He's your horse so you should do what you want.

However, how he is moving on a soft surface, is surely how he will move when his feet have toughened up a bit, on all surfaces.

I would absolutely follow the Rockley methodology with this horse. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

None of mine are shod and none have any good issues but I've transitioned about 9 horses now and it's honestly not that difficult.

My daughter's pony was utterly crippled without front shoes and her front feet were tiny compared to her (bare self trimming sound) back feet. I took the shoes off 18 months ago and her feet are tremendous now. She has very rubbish conformation and is 14 and I feel self trimming is absolutely the best thing for her as it is for all my others.

Thanks Ffion - I have had that first sentence said to me a few times over the last few days and you are absolutely right - hes my horse, I have had him for 9 years and I know him better than anyone so I should trust that I know what is best for him in this scenario. Its always encouraging to hear stories of other peoples success stories so thank you for sharing that

 

[Shutterbug]

I am late to this thread but it's shocking but not surprising to me that the farrier never pointed out to you the plight of that foot in the second picture .
If this where my horse I would defiantly go the BF route .
That does not mean the horse can never wear shoes now I have my routine sussed I move my horses between shoes and BF as it suits me .
Get the feet first book that Nic Barker wrote it will give a great overview of what your trying to achieve .
Try the horse on the horse on the forage plus performance balancers they really got my horses feet growing expensive but the best things I have found so far.
With the professionals while I would consider stretching the truth , in the best situations you would do your thing and the vet would X-ray the feet after three months and then you can see the improvement (and that is a wonderful moment ) but if the vet won't cooperate it's harder .
It's complicated if you are insured because the clock is ticking I am not so it's easier for me I am not sure I would have got started on bf if I had been as it clouds the issue .
If you meet real resistance I would consider throwing your hands in horror bursting into tears and say that's it you can't cope and you are putting him in the field not fully honest but easier , then look for professionals with a more open mind .
My best friend is an equine vet and was very very anti when I started she come round over time .

My farrier was working towards correcting the left foot when he went lame - I had a previous farrier who fixed it and he was quite even, then he cut back on clients so I used another guy who promptly undid all his good efforts of corrective shoeing and he had two different sized feet again - I have now found a good farrier who was starting to fix it again and I think perhaps all the widening and shortening has caused the issue and the lameness cause hes probably had trauma to the soft tissue. Enough is enough though, its time to let him grow what he needs and let it sort itself, Im not having his hoof yanked and pulled around anymore.

Luckily my farrier has agreed to support us and is on board - the vet will follow. Hes been my vet for over 10 years and we have a fab relationship so he will listen to my farrier. Your suggestion of bursting into tears and saying I cant cope did make me laugh though

 

[Shutterbug]

Thumbs up OP, so glad you have made this decision, those xrays are shocking - I'm surprised he could walk at all!

Just stay firm on what you're doing. One of the main reasons I wanted to send mine to Rockley, as well we the obvious benefits for my horse was the support I would get from the experience. My 'knowledgeable' family are not really supportive (always questioning in a non helpful way about limiting grass intake etc etc), the farrier was offering advice on what other raised heel shoes we could try. I just kept schtum as couldn't face the conversation with him. I'm hoping mine will be practically self trimming with a few visits from a trimmer I've contacted.

Good luck with it, and join the Phoenix horse forum too if you want more information. I ahve to say, going barefoot has made me question so much about what I do with my horses day to day care and whether the reasons for doing things make actual sense, or whether I do them because 'thats the way things are done'

Thanks stencilface - its been the great advise on here thats really given me the balls to make a stand. You guys have given such positive support and I'm so grateful, plus my friend BlackBeastie on here has been a massive support as we know each other IRL. I joined the forums, yet to post though as havent had time but I will - and I am currently devouring lots of information on feed and I know exactly what you mean - Im looking at both my horses daily routines now. I also have a 4 year old who has, and never will have a shoe near him unless medically necessary. This whole thing is making me re-evaluate everything

 

[Shutterbug]

Somehow I had skimmed past the xrays. If MRId I think there would be quite few soft tissue issues going on. The left fore is pretty shocking.

The vet did say it likely Palmar foot pain as a result of trauma/injury to the surrounding tissue. Farrier is on board and will speak to the vet who will agree with the farrier. So Im good to go

 

[ester]

excellent update .

 

[Shutterbug]

They are similar to one foot in the horse of a friend I am currently helping. Her vet never mentioned lateral imbalance, gave a diagnosis of navicular bone pain in a horse lame in one front foot only, treated with Osphos - for bone remineralisation - at vast expense and prescribed heart bars in which he was even more lame and began to produce wrinkles in the side of the bad foot.

He was sound on flat ground after five days without shoes. He did an hour round a farm ride with jumps earlier this week after thirteen weeks barefoot and will be doing a short day hunting before the season closes.

You've done the right thing OP. It's no guarantee but it's got a much better chance of working than any medication or shoeing.

Thanks ycbm - hes to have the rest of this week off then his BF rehab can begin - luckily I have lots of good flat roads that go for miles and a nice soft grass forest area we can do faster work on so we can build it up and fingers crossed I will be showing you all much improved x-rays in 6 months.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks ycbm - hes to have the rest of this week off then his BF rehab can begin - luckily I have lots of good flat roads that go for miles and a nice soft grass forest area we can do faster work on so we can build it up and fingers crossed I will be showing you all much improved x-rays in 6 months.

I know you know this but I'm going to say it anyway His feet have been struggling to be different while farriers try to make them look the same (it's possible the one who left you with two very different feet was actually doing the best job!). He may produce two completely unmatched feet and that doesn't matter one bit as long as he is getting sounder on them. They may eventually become a pair, but that can take many years as his body unlocks whatever kinks caused him to need odd feet in the first place.

So, get your walking boots on and walk, walk, walk in hand if necessary, that's the key. Do at least two days in every three, rain or shine and you've got a very, very good chance of reporting a sound horse in a few weeks, or maybe a few months, time.

Good luck!

 

[Shutterbug]

I know you know this but I'm going to say it anyway His feet have been struggling to be different while farriers try to make them look the same (it's possible the one who left you with two very different feet was actually doing the best job!). He may produce two completely unmatched feet and that doesn't matter one bit as long as he is getting sounder on them. They may eventually become a pair, but that can take many years as his body unlocks whatever kinks caused him to need odd feet in the first place.

So, get your walking boots on and walk, walk, walk in hand if necessary, that's the key. Do at least two days in every three, rain or shine and you've got a very, very good chance of reporting a sound horse in a few weeks, or maybe a few months, time.

Good luck!

Thanks. That's very true and so long as he's sound and happy then I'm happy. Best Buy myself some new boots at the weekend.

I promise to update you all. I'm going to start a blog and add all your posts to it if that's ok? I want to have some kind of record of what I'm doing and why so that perhaps someone else can benefit from it in the future.

 

[ycbm]

Fine by me. It's lovely to look back on. Take lots of pictures!

 

[indychick30]

Great to to hear! Best of luck. Looking forward to updates

 

[Goldenstar]

My farrier was working towards correcting the left foot when he went lame - I had a previous farrier who fixed it and he was quite even, then he cut back on clients so I used another guy who promptly undid all his good efforts of corrective shoeing and he had two different sized feet again - I have now found a good farrier who was starting to fix it again and I think perhaps all the widening and shortening has caused the issue and the lameness cause hes probably had trauma to the soft tissue. Enough is enough though, its time to let him grow what he needs and let it sort itself, Im not having his hoof yanked and pulled around anymore.

Luckily my farrier has agreed to support us and is on board - the vet will follow. Hes been my vet for over 10 years and we have a fab relationship so he will listen to my farrier. Your suggestion of bursting into tears and saying I cant cope did make me laugh though

He may end up with two very different looking feet from the outside so you need to be prepared to be led by what's going on side .
I started out with a trimmer helping me he was great and taught me loads including eventually how to rasp ( later my farrier helped me a lot with this ).
Learning to rasp has been great I can now rasp weekly which is great with some of the horses .
I wish all the best with this expect some ups and downs but it's amazing watching the feet change .
I would defiantly get some boots for the front feet you might use them very little but the times you need them makes it worth it .

 

[tallyho!]

Late to the party here...

glad you have found a good solution . The only way for navicular is shoes off to give the insides room to heal and grow a decent amount cushioning and support for itself.

Personally, I wouldn't have let a farrier who has no success in bf horses anywhere near my horse, opting for a well qualified trimmer who has hundreds. But That's just me...

 

[HashRouge]

Some excellent advice on this thread and I do think you are doing the right thing, 100%. Important things to remember (and I'm sure this has been mentioned) as you will need to be very careful with the Spring grass coming through. This gave me quite a lot of trouble over the first few years with my mare, although she does have cushings which makes them extra sensitive! The right feed is important too (I'm sure Ester made some good suggestions) in one of her posts. And finally, if you are still having your horse trimmed, whether by a farrier or by a trimmer, be aware that they may take far too much off. If your horse is uncomfortable after being trimmed, there is a problem with the trim. This is something a lot of us have to deal with when we first take shoes off - it is always a bit of a shock when you first realise that the professionals don't always know best! I've had trouble with both a farrier and a trimmer leaving my mare quite uncomfortable even though, cosmetically, her feet looked beautiful. I now use the best bloke, who is both a farrier and a qualified trimmer, he has never left my horse any less sound than he found her, plus he's wonderful with the horses . However, if you can get your horse to a stage where he self-trims, that will be the best thing for both of you. Unfortunately my mare is retired, but I'd love her to be able to do it all herself!

Good luck, I'm really interested to see how this goes for you both

 

[SaffronWelshDragon]

Will definitely follow your blog, leave a link here

 

[Shutterbug]

Thanks guys - I'm quite excited and feeling really positive about it all now. I know there will be moments of disappointment and possibly some frustrations along the way and I am going into it with eyes wide open, but I keep reminding myself how much better his back feet look since I removed his shoes - I had added some pics here for comparison so you can see how well hes doing with his hinds. The images to the left are of the hoof in October - this was the first farrier visit since removing his shoes 7 weeks previous. The images to the right were the hind feet taken on 2nd February - his last farrier visit at that point was 30th December.

My farrier also down my 4 year old (he is 5 in March) who I backed last year - he rarely needs anything doing - he's done a fair bit of road hacking this year so has been pretty much self trimming so other than keeping an eye on an area of the hoof wall that had to be dug out due to seedy toe - hes pretty much tidied up with a rasp and that's it - I have complete confidence in my farrier to do what is needed but I am also asking a barefoot specialist to take a look at him just in case she spots something he misses and I will get her back out in future to help me keep on the right track.

Back lefts

Back rights

 

[ester]

Oooh how exciting they were flat as a pancake weren't they . He looks to have a lot more collateral groove depth now and developing some concavity. I also wouldn't worry about the bars doing their own thing a bit at the moment. They will just be providing support while things change. Looks like he had some false sole around the tip of his frog on the right that has now come away .

 

[Shutterbug]

And just to top it all off - my vet just called for an update on my convo with the farrier and has given his full support - he wants to assess him in 6-8 weeks and have regular contact, but after I explained my reasons and why I wanted to try BF, along with my rehab plans, he has agreed its a good idea to try this first and then go down the shod route if this does not work.

What a relief - again thank you all, you have given me the confidence to voice my concerns with the vet/farrier plan of shoeing to fix it and to push for what I want for Arion. I truly believe its in his best interests and I am so utterly relieved that they are now both on board.

 

[Andalucian]

Nice thread, good luck, keep asking if you have wobbles......it's "normal" when you're pioneering a different path. Right decision for your horse, stick with it.

 

[Shutterbug]

Nice thread, good luck, keep asking if you have wobbles......it's "normal" when you're pioneering a different path. Right decision for your horse, stick with it.

Thanks - I'm really glad his back feet are doing so well - I think anytime I have a wobble with his fronts I will have to stare at his back feet to show myself that he can do it and its worth sticking to - alternatively I will come here for a cry and a good kick up the backside to get me back on track

 

[tallyho!]

Thanks guys - I'm quite excited and feeling really positive about it all now. I know there will be moments of disappointment and possibly some frustrations along the way and I am going into it with eyes wide open, but I keep reminding myself how much better his back feet look since I removed his shoes - I had added some pics here for comparison so you can see how well hes doing with his hinds. The images to the left are of the hoof in October - this was the first farrier visit since removing his shoes 7 weeks previous. The images to the right were the hind feet taken on 2nd February - his last farrier visit at that point was 30th December.

My farrier also down my 4 year old (he is 5 in March) who I backed last year - he rarely needs anything doing - he's done a fair bit of road hacking this year so has been pretty much self trimming so other than keeping an eye on an area of the hoof wall that had to be dug out due to seedy toe - hes pretty much tidied up with a rasp and that's it - I have complete confidence in my farrier to do what is needed but I am also asking a barefoot specialist to take a look at him just in case she spots something he misses and I will get her back out in future to help me keep on the right track.

Back lefts

Back rights

That is a really good idea getting a trimmer to check - they see hundreds of working barefoot horses whereas a farrier might not. Maybe this will change in the future. For anyone new to bf and reading, EPAUK are the only training body now so please look to see that they are qualified as this qualification is LANTRA approved. Previously UKNHCP did their own training but not now.

Those photos speak for themselves! Hooves are amazing - with the right diet, amount of work and good trimming, it really is fantastic.

It may not be for every single last horse out there but I love seeing more and more horses out there competing without a glint of shoes

 

[Goldenstar]

I do agree with Tallyho! You need to be sure that the farrier has experience of working BF horses as some of them have non what so ever .
I used a trimmer when I first started out he was so good and I learnt loads unfortunately he did his job too well and I look after them myself now when BF so I rarely see him.

 

[FfionWinnie]

He might end up with odd feet. I wouldn't be tempted to try and make them the same.

Imagine if you had one foot smaller than the other and they tried stretching it as an adult to make it match. Ow. Let him grow the feet he needs - if they are a mismatched pair but he is sound, that will be your answer.

 

[Shutterbug]

He might end up with odd feet. I wouldn't be tempted to try and make them the same.

Imagine if you had one foot smaller than the other and they tried stretching it as an adult to make it match. Ow. Let him grow the feet he needs - if they are a mismatched pair but he is sound, that will be your answer.

That's exactly how I explained it to my OH last night with the odd feet analogy lol. Yeah he needs to grow what he needs and it's two odd feet he needs then that's fine. So long as he's comfortable, balanced and happy. Im convinced all the widening and shortening that's been done to try and get his feet the same size in the past have contributed to the issue he has now after doing some research and reading.

He has had cortisone injections for mild arthritic changes in his hock in his hind right and you can see from the pics above how his frog and bars have grown differently in each back foot in accordance with his way of going. That was quite the eye opener for me.

I have taken 6 photos of each hoof now from all different angles to get my blog started so going to get that done this weekend.

 

[tallyho!]

That's exactly how I explained it to my OH last night with the odd feet analogy lol. Yeah he needs to grow what he needs and it's two odd feet he needs then that's fine. So long as he's comfortable, balanced and happy. Im convinced all the widening and shortening that's been done to try and get his feet the same size in the past have contributed to the issue he has now after doing some research and reading.

He has had cortisone injections for mild arthritic changes in his hock in his hind right and you can see from the pics above how his frog and bars have grown differently in each back foot in accordance with his way of going. That was quite the eye opener for me.

I have taken 6 photos of each hoof now from all different angles to get my blog started so going to get that done this weekend.

It looks as if you have started your journey in earnest

Never stop learning and always keep an open mind, don't be fearful of taking a step back sometimes and remember shoes/boots are all tools to help you keep a sound horse. I always used to think diet was everything but actually, I now know from experience it is not... exercise is the dominating factor above all else.