Talking about stallion grading

well spottedcat you obviously want to get into a tit for tat. that is not what i said, so you keep posting i couldnt care less.
 
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I was just tickled by the fact that an expert thinks IDxTB can't make a sportshorse,

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What on earth makes you think britbreeder (whoever he or she is) is an expert! He/she is CEARTAINLY not an expert on Irish Draughts or Irish Sport horses - and would - I think - have ignored this thread if it hadn't given him/her a chance to attack me.

I'm just sorry he/she chose to stuff up a thread which was merely intended to show some nice pics of two of my boys having fun. Perhaps he/she should take its vitriol over to the Hunting Forum and stay out of breeding - which tends to be a friendlier place where we try to help and support each other!
 
Sorry, should perhaps have put 'expert'?? Certainly they are self-styled as such in the way they come across if you see what I mean. Anyway, best of luck with the gradings, I happen to be a big fan of the IDxTB sportshorse.
 
Just to add my two pennies worth. At the BEF Futurity, UK Arena, the panel went out of their way to comment on an IDxTB foal as being just the type of breeding to aspire to. Personally I think it was overkill on the promotion of the TB stallion in question but there was no doubt over the quality of the foal and its potential suitability.....
 
Have really deliberated about posting in here cos of the heated nature of this post but then thought what the heck, I am entitled to my opinion either though I don't breed or know any thing about it. Think I know a nice horse when I see one though so JanetGeorge, just wanted to say loved the pictures of your stallions, love ID and IDx horses, bright bay in my siggie is an IDx and is one of the kindest most genuiue horses you could meet. Sometime think I shouldn't have sold him.
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Wanted to wish you luck for your grading although sure you won't need it.
 
Wow - that was an impressively quick degeneration from a proud 'look at my boys having fun' post to an out and out personal attack on someone! Rude doesn't come close!

I can see why people are intimidated on this forum if there's a risk that their horses will be slated like that.

I prefer the bay out of the 2 but then that's because I prefer a lighter build of horse - having seen Rambo in the flesh though he certainly is impressive! And HUGE!
 
I have resisted the temptation to get involved with this discussion, personal insults are not my thing!!!!!!!!!!!

However, I have posted to say JanetGeorge, your boys both look like lovely examples of their breed, good luck with the grading. I am sure there are more than a few TB type mares out there who would love to produce a sports horse foal from either of them.

<u>Correct me if I'm wrong, but!!!</u>

I have always been lead to believe from both documented evidence and the old boys of breeding that the Warmblood evolved from a combination of Cold Blood and Hot Blood horses (hence the name), or am I confusing that with the infamous Tepid Blood Horse that we hear so much about.

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<u>Correct me if I'm wrong, but!!!</u>
I have always been lead to believe from both documented evidence and the old boys of breeding that the Warmblood evolved from a combination of Cold Blood and Hot Blood horses (hence the name),

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Yes that is true but the rule for generations (probably about 18 -20 in Hannoverian, Trakehner and Swedish breeding to quote just three of the more successful/established ones) is that it should be the blood (quality) on top of bone as the other way round tends to produce an over-bodied horse with light bone. I understand that recent research into the role of mitochondrial DNA (which always comes from the dam and governs overall development) supports this so it is something to bear in mind.

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or am I confusing that with the infamous Tepid Blood Horse that we hear so much about.

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About 30 years ago -- when Swedish warmbloods were far less modern and sharp than they are today -- someone described them to me as Swedish luke-warm bloods but haven't ever heard of tepids!

Drabant and a few hot Trakehners plus some pretty sharp Holsteins soon resolved that situation though!
 
Ciss you are of course correct, but as you know it can work out very well. It was the thing of the "old days" to take the working mare to the local HIS TB stallion. These were either used as hunters or recurited by the army (I understand this is were the premiums started). This information is available on the SHBS site "Our History". I took a gamble putting my TB type mare to an ID stallion but her daughter was no disapointment &amp; is now in the Head stud book herself. Mind there seems to have been some controversy of how good the SHBS gradings really are.
 
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Also I might be mistaking it for the Luke Warm Blood, the Hand Hot Blood, the Elbow Test Blood and of course the Babies Milk Blood (I have heard that this one is still its infancy though), all as infamous as the other.


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PMSL... you forgot the Moderately Warm Blood
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Although I don't breed Irish Horses, I love Irish horses and I think both of JG's are stunning (BIG...but stunning!)
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My own horse, who is now sadly retired was ID
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a few people use to snigger at his size but soon lost their smiles when he whopped their tushies, no one told him he was 17h, he thought he was 12.2 and could turn on a sixpence
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I think the attitude and rudeness of some people are best ignored... the only person they are making look bad is themselves
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Yes that is true but the rule for generations (probably about 18 -20 in Hannoverian, Trakehner and Swedish breeding to quote just three of the more successful/established ones) is that it should be the blood (quality) on top of bone as the other way round tends to produce an over-bodied horse with light bone.


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I think that is probably true when crossing a TB with a cold blooded draught horse but in my experience it doesn't hold true with Irish Draughts. A lot of good Irish sport horses are, of course, TB stallion on an ID mare - but I suspect this was more because Irish breeders HAD the IDs and they are incredibly hardy and cheap to keep compared to TB mares - and, of course, until a few years ago, Irish sport horses were fetching more than pure-bred IDs.

I find that even my BIG ID can produce very elegant sport horses when put on a TB mare - and he has considerably less TB in his pedigree than some. Some years ago, I nearly didn't bother going to see a potential hunt horse as she was described as 'full TB'. When I saw her, I saw nothing to make me question that. I bought her, got her passport and found she was in fact by Enniskeane Prince (RID) out of a TB mare. She LOOKS like a pretty TB with a tiny bit more bone than a TB. Her daughter, by an RID, looks like a first cross.

Some of the BEST Irish Sport horses have in fact been by the RID. Jumbo (xSkippy); Virtual Village Hopes are High (by Flagmount Diamond RID out of a mare whose sire was TB but dam line unknown) and dozens/hundreds of others.
 
There are good and bad in every breed so one can't generalise as some people on this forum seem to do all the time. The King of Diamonds legacy has yet to be matched by any Warmblood with only Nimmerdor getting close so far!! I breed from both ID and TB/WB and have done so for over 20 years and some are competing internationally, why can't people look at the individual horse, take their breeding into account as regards conformation traits etc and then keep their judgement to themselves, the other thing WHO THE HELL CAN TELL FROM PHOTOS!!!!!!!!!!!
 
has king of daimonds really left a legacy only comparing to nimmerdor? what about cor de lay bryere? landgraf? alme? capitol? argentinus? concorde? grannus? quidam de revel? le tot de semilly? sandro? surely it depends how you define legacy? i'm not saying he wasn't a great stallion but to say that nimmerdor only comes close seems a bit strange considering there have been greater stallions who have changed breeding considerably and left great legacies behind aswell.
 
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There are good and bad in every breed so one can't generalise as some people on this forum seem to do all the time.

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I certainly agree with the forst part of this sentence but as for the latter -- as weare often quite specific in our arguments becuase generalitoes tend to get (very necessarily) questioned -- I see less and less evidence of it (apart from the occassional niave post from a newbie of course).


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The King of Diamonds legacy has yet to be matched by any Warmblood with only Nimmerdor getting close so far!!

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As someone who has described themselves in other threads as having been to many gradings over the past 20 years (although how many of these were abroad you do not say) I am really surprised that you have made this statement as even the briefest galnce at the relevant statistics for bloodline legacies will show you that:

1 The latest (end of 2007) list of the top 50 sires of graded sires in WBFSH studbook across all disciplines does not include King of Diamonds; Nimmerdor is there in 25th place as he was in 2006 with the top four being Quidam de Revel, Contender, Donnerhall and Sandro Hit
2 The similar list for sires of dams of graded stallions also contains no mention of King of Diamonds with Nimmerdor in 4th place, Ramiro Z in 1st, Landgraf in 2nd and Pilot in 3rd
3 Neither of these lists feature *any* stalion (king of Daimonds descendent or not) that is described as either ISH or RID

but then perhaps the lagacy you describe is not in top international competition perhaps?

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I breed from both ID and TB/WB and have done so for over 20 years and some are competing internationally, why can't people look at the individual horse, take their breeding into account as regards conformation traits etc and then keep their judgement to themselves

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Sorry but to post up photos of soon-to-be-presented-for-grading colts is to invite comment, although the actual expertise of those commenting does sometimes not bear too much close examination

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the other thing WHO THE HELL CAN TELL FROM PHOTOS!!!!!!!!!!!

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Absolutely true; whilst some flatter far more do not and promoting stallions (especially potential ones) is such a tough thing to do that I am alwasy surprised that people continue to lay themselves open to this.

Just to add Quidam de Revel currently has 80 sons graded in WBFSH studbooks, Contender 79, Donnerhall 69, Sandro Hit 67 and Nimmerdor 31 whilst Ramiro Z has 90 daughters that have prodiced currently graded living sons, Landgraf has 87, Pilot has 63 and Nimmerdo has 58.

Now that's what I call a legacy :-)
 
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<u>Correct me if I'm wrong, but!!!</u>
I have always been lead to believe from both documented evidence and the old boys of breeding that the Warmblood evolved from a combination of Cold Blood and Hot Blood horses (hence the name),

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Yes that is true but the rule for generations (probably about 18 -20 in Hannoverian, Trakehner and Swedish breeding to quote just three of the more successful/established ones) is that it should be the blood (quality) on top of bone as the other way round tends to produce an over-bodied horse with light bone. I understand that recent research into the role of mitochondrial DNA (which always comes from the dam and governs overall development) supports this so it is something to bear in mind.


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Does that mean that both Lenamore and Mr. Medicott were both lucky breedings, they are exceptions to the rule.

Or is it that they were carefully bred using the correct combination of hot and cold blood to produce 2008 Olympic competitors. (although I am happily surprised that Cruising has produced a youngster with a length of stride)
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I think you will find that there are plenty of horses competition in international competitions that have some form of Irish blood a lot closer to them than 18-20 generations.

IMO the breeding of sports horses will go full circle, in the not too distant future. More power and substance will be required to lift the standard both from a soundness, ridability and effectiveness point of view, the balance has been tipped to far one way, it really needs to be levelled out again.

And in will walk the Irish Draft..............................
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Does that mean that both Lenamore and Mr. Medicott were both lucky breedings, they are exceptions to the rule.

Or is it that they were carefully bred using the correct combination of hot and cold blood to produce 2008 Olympic competitors. (although I am happily surprised that Cruising has produced a youngster with a length of stride)
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Well, not wishing to stir up too much of a hornet's nest here but I have always understood that Mary McCann has always been very reluctant to have Cruising DNA'd for parentage (he is not known as the Irish Milton for nothing :-)) and as for pony paces not being passed on perhaps that is due to the fact that Nordlys was a TB anyway and he himself has usually tended to be used on big raking TB/TB type mares anyway. So as for ID input that close up ....

As for Lenamore, one of the fascinating things about this list is that there is always an example that someone can call up that seems to destroy an argument, but one (or even a couple) of swallows don't make a summer or counteract several decades of breeding practice in most of the rest of the world.

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I think you will find that there are plenty of horses competition in international competitions that have some form of Irish blood a lot closer to them than 18-20 generations.

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I think you are a bit confused here. I never said there was no ID blood -- or indeed no heavy blood of any type be it RID, Gron, Geld, Old etc -- in any sports horse pedigrees as even the most superficial examination of German, Dutch and French (let alone Irish) pedigrees will show these charactiristics coming up even as close as the 5th generatiopn (say the early 1970s), but mainland Europe has been breeding on/ refining up from them consistently since thenn and that is where the difference lies.

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IMO the breeding of sports horses will go full circle, in the not too distant future. More power and substance will be required to lift the standard both from a soundness, ridability and effectiveness point of view, the balance has been tipped to far one way, it really needs to be levelled out again.

And in will walk the Irish Draft..............................
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I would beg to differ as the FEI is moving more and more towards testing rioder competence and skills (more and more technically related distances, difficult changes of terrain and level, complex quick transitions etc) all of which require a quick acting, sensitive, brave (hot) and super athletic horse rather than more power and forgiveness of rider error, but we shall see. OTOH, how such developments will help resolve the problem of producing a top class Elite horse and an all-rounder from basically the same stock is hard to see and perhaps some of us will have to accept that breeding the equine version of an F1 car is not the same as producing an equine Vauxhall Estate and market our products accordingly.
 
Slightly OT but maybe part for the reason why many Irish Stallions &amp; most UK stallions have no or little stallion son legacy is because there is not tradition for keeping colts entire in this country so usually the male lines who made it to the top are inevitably geldings. When I have been abroad it always surprizes me at the number of stallions in livery yards with young girls handling &amp; riding them - not the norm by any stretch in the UK and something that was very much frowned upon when I was growing up.
 
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IMO the breeding of sports horses will go full circle, in the not too distant future. More power and substance will be required to lift the standard both from a soundness, ridability and effectiveness point of view, the balance has been tipped to far one way, it really needs to be levelled out again.

And in will walk the Irish Draft..............................
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I really hope ths is true. I loved the old fashioned warmbloods and hunters. Nowadays, everything is getting lighter and lighter
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I agree with both CL &amp; PD here. I have as many people asking for an athletic foal of a stronge type as I have people asking for a refined so called "modern" type
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I like both types
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And in will walk the Irish Draught…………………..

Perhaps not. When you take a good hard look at the breeding industry in the European powerhouses, it is impossible to see how the pure ID will ever stand a chance. This is an industry where people expect to make money (not here, but in Europe), thus there is no way any breeder, large or small, is going to take the risk on an F1 hybrid (F1 in genetic terms, not motor racing) involving the ID. The reasons are simple, they would consider that outcross to be too much risk, where scope, movement etc could be lost. With the tb, perhaps a forward thinking breeder may have a second generation goal, but they would understand that would be making a sacrifice in the first generation.

If a German breeder were looking to increase bone and general size, they already have that in Berlin and Cumano, why look for other unproven alternatives, when the answer is sitting on your doorstep with medals around its neck? And these stallions come with little or no risk of losing scope or rideability, it’s a no-brainer.

You might get the odd ID x tb cross super stallion, but he’d have to be so successful in the ring, that he’d be dead before his first kids hit the top international classes.

Also, where you have these outcrosses which have become successful (Holsteiner being one classic example of a cart horse crossed with a tb), you’ll find that 99/100 are tb stallions on top of draft mares, NOT the other way round. Again, this is fact not opinion.

Thankyou CISS for the addition of statistically backed up facts, always useful in breeding debates.
 
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