Talking about stallion grading

[ QUOTE ]

And in will walk the Irish Draft..............................
wink.gif
wink.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I was using the ID as an example hence the
wink.gif
wink.gif
, however I do think that more substance will be required to lift the 'modern' sports horse in the not to distant future.

The circle of life, as they say.
grin.gif
grin.gif
grin.gif
 
BritBreeder whilst I don't disagree with your post, it is referring to what breeders on mainland Europe would do & that is not the same as what breeders in the UK will do. This is because the UK has a different mare base, different traditional breeds & because of that there is a market for ID x foals that would not exist in mainland Europe. Not every breeder in mainland Europe will use the top class stallions & so will breeders in the UK use their tradtional crosses & when talking about British breeding that has to be taken into consideration. Coming onto a thread and being very rude about ID stallions and applying European breeding philosphy (sp
blush.gif
) straight across the board of the breeding situation in the UK is too simplistic a view on British breeding & market.
smile.gif
There is demand for good ID x TBs and seeing the prices that ID mares go for there is a demand for them as well. I would say it is perhaps easier for a UK breeder to get a high price for a good pure RID filly than for a UK bred filly foal out of a UK mare by one of Kens top stallions for instance. Horses for courses
smile.gif
 
I wouldn't disagree about demand for the "good ID x tb" cross, because if you read my post I have said that same as you.

Regarding the UK mare with one of "Ken's top stallions", I'm not so sure. I think you'll find that next year, when they all start hitting the ground (and economic conditions being not too horrible), you'll see some very good prices. I would say that you're talking about different markets though, buyers aren't going to be buying a pure ID filly with the intention of taking her to the Olympics (I could be wrong, but it's unlikely).

I think that we will see a two or three tiered breeding system in the UK in the future, but that's a different strand to this subject.

The point to this entire thread, is that the two unapproved stallions being talked about, are in my opinion (one to which I am entitled) not going to provide British breeders who breed for performance in the Olympic disciplines, with the tools they require for all the reasons already given. I have never argued that they would make super stallions for breeding Irish Draughts, that would be their natural job. But to suggest anything else would be barking up the wrong tree.
 
[ QUOTE ]

The point to this entire thread, is that the two unapproved stallions being talked about, are in my opinion (one to which I am entitled) not going to provide British breeders who breed for performance in the Olympic disciplines, with the tools they require for all the reasons already given. I have never argued that they would make super stallions for breeding Irish Draughts, that would be their natural job. But to suggest anything else would be barking up the wrong tree.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was never what this thread was about! That is, until you came in with cheap swings.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Although I know Janet can (and has) stood up for herself,

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you can easily justify her use of disgusting obscenities, in her response? There are children who use this forum, although it is always inappropriate to use such language and name calling on a public forum.

[ QUOTE ]
it was very unfair for this to become so heated;

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, it is a shame that a number of you cannot possibly accept that somebody has a point of view different from yours. You consider it perfectly acceptable to screaming foul language and insults. If you are so sure that what you say is right, why resort to playground (although not any playground I ever went to) and sewer language?

[ QUOTE ]
there was absolutely no need for it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad we agree on that, a shame that some of you are so fixed in your ideas and unable to accept change and advancement.
 

This thread was for someone to show us her lovely young colts and that alone.
It went downhill only after your derogatory and insulting remarks so I feel you only have yourself to blame for any vitriol that that caused.

As per your comment -"a shame that some of you are so fixed in your ideas and unable to accept change and advancement."
Perhaps you could take a leaf out of your own book by realising that warmbloods aren't the B all to end all to all of us; that we all are not trying to breed 'world class' types, just sensible, attractive and honest types that the average rider can handle and enjoy, so perhaps we can agree to disagree nicely and not say either viewpoint is the only or correct one instead? I know it will be hard for you though.
grin.gif
 
Oh, do give us a break Ken Klone, until you joined in it was a very pleasing post from someone who is extremely proud (and rightly so) of her boys.
Foul language? Aw Bless, you have led a sheltered life
crazy.gif
 
Well insult me if you must but you do not know anything about me other than my few posts!! Most of the Stallions you have mentioned I have in bloodlines in my stock, naive I am not!!!! I will dig out the stats on KoD for you as his numbers of top international competition stock, as well a his 1st and 2nd generation offspring's top International and Olympic offspring still out number the ones you have mentioned by miles, that's what I call a legacy and unlike you I am not belittling the accomplishments of the other great stallions like the ones you have mentioned!!!!

To clarify I was not even thinking about these lines for Dressage breeding!! That would in my opinion be fruitless for top international.

As for being a newbie I am not but if you are naive enough to think so just because of this sign in then that is your mistake!!!
 
[ QUOTE ]

The point to this entire thread, is that the two unapproved stallions being talked about, are in my opinion (one to which I am entitled) not going to provide British breeders who breed for performance in the Olympic disciplines, with the tools they require for all the reasons already given

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point to this thread was NOT to suggest they would! The whole point to this thread was to show pics of two nice ID colts having a ball! It was made very clear in my first post that these were ID colts being prepared for ID grading - nothing else. So you proved you could be insulting, off-topic, AND incapable of reading in your first post! CLEVER girl!

I have never argued that they would make super stallions for breeding Irish Draughts,
Actually, you did. You said: "that is just plain crap movement." Stallions with crap movement DON'T grade RID - and if I thought you had a clue, I'd forget about taking them to grading.

Funnily enough, I prefer to go by the judgement of the IDHS Inspectors - 2 from UK and 1 from Ireland - who were here today inspecting mares but who kindly had a look at the two colts for me. And as a result of their expert advice - as opposed to the half-baked views of the Ken Clone - Rambo may not go in February as they considered him still a little immature - and not quite good enough in his hindquarter yet. That may change once we back him in October and start getting him fit - only time will tell. They could find very little to fault in Prince.

And now I WILL hit the 'ignore user' button - so don't bother sticking your oar in on my threads in future, britbreeder - as it's pretty clear you know nothing about Irish Draughts and I actually don't care what or who you hate. (Such a tedious emotion - hate!)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I will dig out the stats on KoD for you as his numbers of top international competition stock, as well a his 1st and 2nd generation offspring's top International and Olympic offspring still out number the ones you have mentioned by miles, that's what I call a legacy

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, we are not talking about total numbers of progeny grinding around the international circuit over about 20 years (don't even go there as the international statistics of the stallions I mention would blow your mind) but about a far more relevant and immediate legacy -- that of graded stallion sons and graded sons of graded daughters of the stallions in question that are currently at stud and producing top horses. Most competition horses (even international ones) are still geldings so they are only a legacy in the first generation, unless you fancy cloning them of course. And come to think of it if KOD is so absolutely fantastic why hasn't any of his offspring been recruited for one of these cloning operations? Just wondered, although I am no fan of cloning myself, but it is a good guide as to where the real value and money is being thrown at the moment.

[ QUOTE ]
and unlike you I am not belittling the accomplishments of the other great stallions like the ones you have mentioned!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

So statistics (non-specific) quoted by you do not belittle other stallions when ones grounded in verifiable data that use a common playing field to compare them belittle the ones that do not show up well. Hmm -- an interesting view of how the breeding world functions. Also, it was your original post that originally mentioned Nimmerdor etc in rather derogatory terms, which I have to say was a little odd as you now say that many of your horses are actually descendents of the bloodlines you describe as being so unsuccessful in comparison. But then if they are so unsuccessful why have them? I am a bit confused about your overall philosophy of horse buying/breeding now.

[ QUOTE ]
To clarify I was not even thinking about these lines for Dressage breeding!! That would in my opinion be fruitless for top international.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, but several of the stallions I have mentioned do produce dressage horses, especially out of their graded daughters, so don't assume that showjumping stallions don't so this just becuase KOD hasn't.

[ QUOTE ]
As for being a newbie I am not but if you are naive enough to think so just because of this sign in then that is your mistake!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, just what we all love on the list -- another one with a multiple personality (and probably suspended under a previous name if the tone of your last post is anything to go by) and who contradicts him/herself several times in the same post. <ROFL>

Excuse that outbreak of hysterical laughter but it is now very hard to take anything you say seriously as a result :-)
 
I'd like to reply to this post starting from the beginning: Those look like two lovely colts having a lot of fun. I really like the bay, he looks lovely.

Then to move on to the debate about the worth of Irish Draughts (and the Dutch versions of the ID) in international competition and as a riding horse. I think it is very relevant to this conversation that in the UK less than 5% of the total horse population take part in any sort of affiliated competition. Which means that 95% of the horse owning public are not that competitively minded. If you talk to most horse owners the characteristics that they want in their horses are safety, reliability, soundness and fun. In other words there is always going to be a market for the Irish Draught and the Irish Draught Sports Horse. That these horses also produce top class athletes (the Irish Horse Board is still number 1 in the WBFSH rankings for eventers) is IMHO a bonus. It is not the reason most of them are bred.

I've owned several ID x TBs and a full ID as well as a few Warmbloods. I am a competitive rider. When I go out I want to win. The best horse I have ever had is an Irish Draught x TB. She has cleared 5'6" many times, bloodhounded over 20 miles XC and cleared 100 fences and still been ready for more. She has also been in the top 50 in the country at medium level dressage standing ahead of Richard Davison and Hiscox Aliano!!! and is currently competing Advanced dressage, ready to move up to PSG. She has the ability to go to Grand Prix, the "difficult" dressage moves of 1 time changes and piaffe are easy for her. The problem is that I have never done dressage before and am learning the moves and teaching this horse how to do the moves at the same time which makes for fairly slow progress. Because of this we may not reach GP before she becomes too old to do it. Now isn't that a horse that most people would love to own? Talented, forgiving, sound and sensible? What makes her achievements all the more remarkable are that I'm an amateur with a full time job and she only gets ridden 3 times a week.

The horse above isn't an isolated example. She is the best horse I've owned but all the other IDxTBs I've had have taken me over 5' and been sound and trainable. In comparison the warmbloods I've had have often been more tricky. If they are sharp enough to be competitive they have been nightmares as youngsters and feisty as older horses. If they were easy as youngsters they were not quite sparky enough to do the highest levels of dressage. They definitely are not as forgiving of rider mistakes as the IDx.

I think there is an argument going on here that is comparing apples against chocolate bars. If breeders want to breed for an Olympic horse they may fall lucky but by definition an Olympic horse is going to be in the top minute handful of the horse population. It is not uncommon for the ultra talented horses to be hot and difficult and too much for the average rider to handle. To use a stallion with those characteristics in a breeding programme always runs the risk of getting a foal with the fiery temperament that can only be handled by a professional but not enough talent for a professional to be interested in the horse. The horse then falls between two stools and becomes almost impossible to sell.

I think (hope I'm not making too much of an assumption here) that people like Janet breed horses for the market. In other words horses that are sane, sound and easy. At least no one has disputed the generosity of the Irish Draught temperament. If an IDx turns out to be a superstar then that is a bonus. But if a horse bred to be kind, sound and amateur friendly turns out to have a monster jump or talent for dressage (and the number of IDx horses in the upper levels of dressage is rising fast) then you have an easy, talented horse for a professional to bring on. If it does not you still have an amateur-friendly horse.

Ciss mentioned that the KWPN have been actively culling the older, heavier lines from their breeding programme. This is true and there are many Dutch breeders who think it is a big mistake. Consider several top modern Dutch warmbloods that have Gelderlander blood:

Olympic Ferro 50%
Elorianne (competing at Aachen, WEG's) 75%
Amora (rider: Oded Shimoni, first Israeli in WEG's) 100%
Aktion 75%
Elymas (Canadian National Grand Prix Champion) 50%
Bellini 50%
Mr President ?50%

Bearing in mind there are only 300 Gelderlander mares and 5 stallions in existence this is some achievement, not all that dissimilar to the situation with IDs.

Looking through the pages and pages of young horses for sale right now I see IDx and warmbloods for sale for around the same price and similar numbers of each are selling. Looking in the schoolmaster sections of horses for sale the IDx horses (even in dressage) seem to sell faster.

Most people in the UK don't want an Olympic calibre horse. Most people just want a horse they can enjoy and afford to keep and not worry about soundness issues. Those who do do affiliated competition never get beyond Elementary in dressage or Newcomers in showjumping or Novice in eventing. That is the market. Most people are not superstars, they ride for fun. Breeding horses for the people who are going to buy them makes sense! To breed a kind, easy horse that may also become an top class athlete is just the cherry on top. I think that is the right approach to breeding, not trying to breed a super-talented horse that has no home if they do not have enough talent.

It is a fact that more horses are put down earlier on the continent than in the UK (insurance data). I don't know the reason for this but I do wonder if the aims of the breeding programmes in Europe and in the UK have some bearing on this statistic?
 
Welcome Stolensilver, very well put, I agree with you.

I added a 'who would you clone' thread and it is interesting to see, that quite a lot of the horses that people would clone are the 'old' type of warmblood.

Does that mean that the 'modern' type does needs more substance, rideability, soundness etc.

Hmmmmmmmmmm
 
[ QUOTE ]
Welcome Stolensilver, very well put, I agree with you.

I added a 'who would you clone' thread and it is interesting to see, that quite a lot of the horses that people would clone are the 'old' type of warmblood.

Does that mean that the 'modern' type does needs more substance, rideability, soundness etc.

Hmmmmmmmmmm

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are looking for a generous horse that is forgiving of a not particularly educated or unathletic rider (however ambitious they might be) then probably yes. But not if you are breeding one that will work with the rider to overcome the increasingly technical demands set by the FEI at top level where quick, althletic, sensitive response is the key factor in success.

The world moves on -- and gets more complex and diverse as it does -- so going back to horses that would fit the demands of earlier years is not really the way to progress at top level. OTOH, it probably dioes provide a safety net for the next level down and as I said in an eaelier post it is producing the joined-up thinking that will address both sectors that is really the issue we should address.

Perhaps one way of doing this would be to conciously identify/ promote those horses that attend the Futurity qualifying rounds (not the finals) that get good vet, conformation and temperament marks )so will hopefully stay sound for a long time) but drop down to 2nd Premium becuase they do not have the necessary athleticism as having good potential for just this group of riders. That sounds a feasible plan for me but bearing in mond thta the group so identified could well include some horses already identified as 'worldbeaters' by their proud (possibly barn blind/newbie) owners and breeders I am not sure how well such an independent assessment would be greeted as a marketing tool (probably dismissed as an insult to those so classified I am afraid). Comments anyone as I am just trying to draw some sort of positive theme/ solution out of this at times rather contentious thread.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Perhaps one way of doing this would be to conciously identify/ promote those horses that attend the Futurity qualifying rounds (not the finals) that get good vet, conformation and temperament marks )so will hopefully stay sound for a long time) but drop down to 2nd Premium becuase they do not have the necessary athleticism as having good potential for just this group of riders. That sounds a feasible plan for me but bearing in mond thta the group so identified could well include some horses already identified as 'worldbeaters' by their proud (possibly barn blind/newbie) owners and breeders I am not sure how well such an independent assessment would be greeted as a marketing tool (probably dismissed as an insult to those so classified I am afraid). Comments anyone as I am just trying to draw some sort of positive theme/ solution out of this at times rather contentious thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am probably fairly typical of the average buyer in the UK, perhaps more experienced than some as I've made a living in the equine industry (not the breeding sector!) for the past nearly 20yrs.
If I had felt more welcomed by studs and at the shows, I would have spent my money buying a youngster/s (3 - 5yr old) from them. As it is, the studs I visited seemed to think that by selling me an average youngster, they'd be depriving Zara Phillips et al, the chance to take it to Olympic level and thus make their fame/fortune as breeders. I have to question event studs, where their breeding philosophy results in hardly a horse sound enough to break by 3 or 4yr old (and I do know of at least one such stud), who then get sold anonymously through the local low-end sales. Are these the same animals who, although not quite Olympic grade, are supposed to be suitable for me? The ones with difficult temperaments, unsoundnesses and little talent for anything?
This may sound harsh, but I wish the British breeding industry would make some efforts to meet its customers half way, rather than excluding them from the process, then whinging when the buyers don't materialise, or don't rate the failed Olympic prospects as highly as the studs do.
S
grin.gif
 
What an excellent post, stolensilver! That post should go on a sticky so we can all go back to it for reference every time this debate comes up (i.e. about every 5 minutes LOL)!

And yes, your ID x TB sounds like exactly the sort of horse at least 95% of riders would dearly love to own - do you have any ph otos of her?

I see that you are new - welcome!

Without making any claims to any expertise in this area, could I ask a (possibly naive and stupid) question?

I wonder if there would be a different perception of the TB x ID if we renamed it and called it the 'British Warmblood' - which is more or less what it is, essentially, right? A mix of 'hot' and 'cold' blood to produce a sport horse? Same basic principle as the Continental WBs, anyway, although they then cross them with each other, rather than repeating the original hot x cold as we do?

I agree that much of this thread has been comparing chalk and cheese. The role/value of the 'pure ID' should be compared with the role/value of the 'heavy'/'draught'/'carriage' breeds originally used the in the development of the Continental WBs, surely?

The horse that can legitimately be directly compared with the Continental WBs, is the 'British WB' (or ISH, if you prefer), the TB x ID - and this horse is, it seems, still the best in the world for eventing, just as the Continental WBs are the best in the world for dressage/sj?

Yes, the TB xID sometimes benefits from infusions of 'other' blood - but then so do the Continental WBs benefit from additional infusions of TB blood (without which they wouldn't exist in the first place anyway)?

Another naive question: it seems to me that the main difference between the 'British WB' - the TB x ID - and the Continental WBs is, as I said, the fact that we repeat the 'original' hot/cold cross, whereas they cross the results with each other in various ways. So - if we were to cross TB xID horses with other TB x ID horses over many generations, would the results then qualify as a 'Warmblood'?

And does anyone know why we haven't done this? Why DO we keep repeating the 'original' cross instead? (Not saying we shouldn't - just curious as to why we have taken such a different approach.)

Please forgive me if I've missed something blindingly obvious - I'm just trying to learn!
blush.gif
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

Are these the same animals who, although not quite Olympic grade, are supposed to be suitable for me? The ones with difficult temperaments, unsoundnesses and little talent for anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would sincerely hope not, and that is why I stressed that such animals would ahve to score highly in the vetting, conformation and temperament sections of the Futurity but be a bit lacking in the athleticism department.

[ QUOTE ]
This may sound harsh, but I wish the British breeding industry would make some efforts to meet its customers half way, rather than excluding them from the process, then whinging when the buyers don't materialise, or don't rate the failed Olympic prospects as highly as the studs do. S
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more, so why not come and see what the Futurity particpants have for sale -- and the marks they get when presented -- as a major part of your buying /sourcing trips next year?
 
[ QUOTE ]
The ones with difficult temperaments, unsoundnesses and little talent for anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

But that doesn't represent the entire residuals market does it? NO, there are just as many unsound, unrideable etc etc etc horses from all breeds.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The ones with difficult temperaments, unsoundnesses and little talent for anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

But that doesn't represent the entire residuals market does it? NO, there are just as many unsound, unrideable etc etc etc horses from all breeds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think in my experience, it does.
I have just sat here for about 10 mins, going through the horses that my friends and horsey acquaintances (leisure riders who compete at the bottom end if at all) have bought from studs. Without exception, none of them have worked out as riding horses. Some were unrideably sharp for their owners, but most were unsound, or very quickly became so. My friends did not misrepresent themselves to the sellers, so that can't be the reason. And most if not all of the had professional help...but it still didn't work out.
How depressing!
S
frown.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]


I think (hope I'm not making too much of an assumption here) that people like Janet breed horses for the market. In other words horses that are sane, sound and easy. At least no one has disputed the generosity of the Irish Draught temperament. If an IDx turns out to be a superstar then that is a bonus. But if a horse bred to be kind, sound and amateur friendly turns out to have a monster jump or talent for dressage (and the number of IDx horses in the upper levels of dressage is rising fast) then you have an easy, talented horse for a professional to bring on. If it does not you still have an amateur-friendly horse.



[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome stolensilver - I THINK I know your mare and she is indeed a SUPERB example of the versatility and talent of MANY ID sport horses. I can't disagree with anything you say. And you certainly are correct in your assumption.

My first priority is to breed the BEST pure-bred Irish Draughts that I can - judged against the breed standard AND the demand for a good riding horse for any discipline. Second priority is to breed a few nice ID sport horses who can demonstrate the attributes of my stallion as a cross for TB/hunter type mares. If I happen to breed something capable of getting to the higher levels in either dressage or showjumping, then that would be a very welcome bonus!

The extreme shortage of pure-bred Irish Draughts makes it difficult to 'improve' the breed; the IDHS(UK) only grades 2-3 colts each year (and we lose more than that to age and accident.) So few pure-bred stallions concentrate on competition - stud duties get in the way. I think that's an awful shame! But when you consider that for 2006 (the most recent year I have the figures for) just 114 RID mares were bred pure, we just don't have the numbers to play with.

[ QUOTE ]
The role/value of the 'pure ID' should be compared with the role/value of the 'heavy'/'draught'/'carriage' breeds originally used the in the development of the Continental WBs, surely?

[/ QUOTE ]

No - that's a misconception. Maybe 50 years ago it might have been more accurate - the breed (which was always dual purpose - a horse who could pull the farm cart to market on Friday, take farmer hunting on Saturday, and pull a buggy to church on Sunday!) had got a bit heavy and coarse and some introduction of TB blood was allowed over the following 35-40 years to produce a more athletic, riding horse who still had the brain and the bone for MOST adult riders. Within the purebreds today, there is still a division of 'type' - the 'traditional' type (mares 15-2 to 16 hh with 9 inches or more of bone and built like a brick outhouse!) and the more modern type - a little taller, lighter of bone and more 'refined'. Some Irish Draught breeders think we have already gone too far away from the traditional type.

[ QUOTE ]
So - if we were to cross TB xID horses with other TB x ID horses over many generations, would the results then qualify as a 'Warmblood'?

And does anyone know why we haven't done this? Why DO we keep repeating the 'original' cross instead? (Not saying we shouldn't - just curious as to why we have taken such a different approach.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with crossing the first cross on the first cross (and it is done quite a lot!) is that the results can be quite variable. The TB is pre-potent and an ISHxISH mating CAN result in a horse that's virtually pure TB - or a mix that doesn't really 'match' (ID body on TB legs, for example.)

A better cross is often an RID on ISH (for a bit more bone and substance) - OR a TB or WB on an ISH - for a horse with more speed and scope (but still hopefully retaining sufficient bone and a level head!)

But the first cross is an excellent one - (as stolensilver has demonstrated) and what we NEED to do is improve the parents on both sides; select RIDs more stringently for movement and athleticism (and that is now being done by requiring all ID colts to loose school over fences at grading and be independently judged for jumping ability by a senior BSJA representative) - and look JUST as critically at the TB part of the match. I would like us to go further and require mares for grading to jump as well - although that would cause a few complications as many people grade ID fillies at 2 and put them in foal at 3.
 
Many thanks for the warm welcomes.
smile.gif


I'm relieved other people agree with my post. It's always worrying waiting for responses, especially as a newbie posting on a subject that so many people feel deeply about.

Janet I'm sure you're thinking of the right Irish Sports horse. Here she is doing a recent advanced class.

http://www.grabmeimaphotographer.com/store/details.php?gid=214&pid=12140

Shilasdair I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with buying from British breeders. My experiences have been very different. Almost every horse I've had has been bought as an unbroken youngster from a British breeder. Often the studs were very small and it took a lot of phone calls to even find that the stud existed. The breeders have, with no exceptions, been kind, courteous and knowledgeable.

The prices I've paid for youngsters has varied quite a lot over the years. My best horse (the grey above) was £1000 as a foal 15 years ago. That was money well spent! She came from a greengrocer in Yorkshire who had an old event mare behind his shop and bred a foal from her every year. Another horse I bought was full sister to 2 graded approved stallions in WBFSH studbooks, one had been national dressage champion and trained up to Grand Prix before being sold to the States. That mare was £5000 as an unbroken 4yo. She was good enough to take me to the finals of the National 6yo Young Dressage Horse Championships so is every bit as good as her brothers. (She was a witch to ride when she was a baby though!)

What I'm trying to say is that my experience with British Breeders is that they do have good stock and they do price them very fairly. How many full sisters to approved stallions could you get in Germany for £5000?! But I have only dealt with small breeders who have a handful of broodmares and often breed to stallions because they like them rather than putting them to the latest big name from Europe that they have not ever seen other than in carefully taken advert photos. Personally I'm much happier buying this sort of horse from this sort of knowledgeable breeder.

If we want to breed Olympic horses in the UK IMHO we do not want to send over to Holland/Germany/Belgium for frozen semen from a stallion that is all the rage this season. Without seeing a stallion up close and personal you will never find out what the front leg/ back leg/ pelvic conformation is really like. Without seeing the stallion yourself and dozens of his progeny with their dams you cannot know what type, conformation and temperament in the mare really suit him. Sending away for frozen semen from a hot young stallion that lives in a different country is just making the lottery of breeding even more uncertain. Surely it is better to go to a stallion that you know and understand? I get depressed when I read one mare owners being encouraged to use Sandro Z Meyer or Quater Pilot on the strength of a couple of nice foals out of a total crop of 500+. The outstanding foals are not going to be representative of what that stallion usually throws. What breeders need to know is how to stack the odds in their favour of getting a good foal . They need to know which stallions must be put to laid back mares. Which stallions need a mare with an excellent back leg. Which stallions are a bad mix with a long backed mare. Without this knowledge the UK stands little chance of breeding Olympic standard horses and this sort of knowledge is closely guarded by the people who have it!

And of course there is the point made before: how many people really want an Olympic quality horse? Would a stud that singlemindely pursued Olympic dreams be able to sell enough young horses that missed the grade to stay in business?
 
[ QUOTE ]


Janet I'm sure you're thinking of the right Irish Sports horse. Here she is doing a recent advanced class.

http://www.grabmeimaphotographer.com/store/details.php?gid=214&pid=12140

..... My best horse (the grey above) was £1000 as a foal 15 years ago. That was money well spent! She came from a greengrocer in Yorkshire who had an old event mare behind his shop and bred a foal from her every year. .....


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah yes, that's the one! And what a fantastic example of the cross she is!! And what a bargain - even 15 years ago! Of course, that greengrocer would be the sort of breeder many would look down on - but he had a good mare and obviously picked the right stallion to complement her.

And let's face it, the stallion can only do so much!! The mare HAS to suit the stallion and be very good in her own right to produce a very good horse. Going back to RIDs - where this thread started - you wouldn't believe the number of mares who come in to my chap who have NO bone, NO depth, or whatever - and mare owner expects Raj to 'fix it' in one foal!! Doesn't happen - even with pure-breds - and certainly NOT in the cross-bred of ANY breed. You CAN be lucky and get an 'ordinary' mare that nicks well with a particular stallion and produces a foal MUCH better than its dam. I had one here last year - purebred - but not my cup of tea at all and not much to recommend her. She was probably lucky to grade. Yet her filly by Raj is outstanding and a top stud has bought the mare and foal - purely for the foal (and the fact the mare managed to produce such a good foal despite her own shortcomings!) They may be lucky and find the mare nicks well with another good RID - or that her genetic make-up is better than the external view! Only time will tell.

But whatever the breed, IMHO, we have to look at the mare AND the stallion with equally critical eyes. And we have to look PAST them - to the grand-parents - and possibly the great-grand-parents, if possible, to identify those potential world-beaters.

And the stallions to be using (again, of ANY breed!) are those who are successful sons of successful sons - not flukes. I'm not highly 'up' on Warmbloods, but if I WAS looking for a Warmblood sire to breed competition horses then I'd be looking at Quidam deRevel or one of his more successful sons, or a horse of similar performance history.

If looking at RIDs, then I WOULDN'T be looking at King of Diamonds(if he was still available) - purely because his conformation and breed type don't suit - but I'd certainly look at a stallion or mare whose conformation and type were more to my liking but who carried KoD a little further back!

Let's face it, any foal is a fairly random mix of the genes it has inherited from several generations - it may inherit a bit of the best and a bit of the worst (or none of the best and a LOT of the worst!!) Good and bad traits can skip a generation (or 3)!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
The role/value of the 'pure ID' should be compared with the role/value of the 'heavy'/'draught'/'carriage' breeds originally used the in the development of the Continental WBs, surely?

[/ QUOTE ]

No - that's a misconception. Maybe 50 years ago it might have been more accurate - the breed (which was always dual purpose - a horse who could pull the farm cart to market on Friday, take farmer hunting on Saturday, and pull a buggy to church on Sunday!) had got a bit heavy and coarse and some introduction of TB blood was allowed over the following 35-40 years to produce a more athletic, riding horse who still had the brain and the bone for MOST adult riders. Within the purebreds today, there is still a division of 'type' - the 'traditional' type (mares 15-2 to 16 hh with 9 inches or more of bone and built like a brick outhouse!) and the more modern type - a little taller, lighter of bone and more 'refined'. Some Irish Draught breeders think we have already gone too far away from the traditional type.

[ QUOTE ]
So - if we were to cross TB xID horses with other TB x ID horses over many generations, would the results then qualify as a 'Warmblood'?

And does anyone know why we haven't done this? Why DO we keep repeating the 'original' cross instead? (Not saying we shouldn't - just curious as to why we have taken such a different approach.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with crossing the first cross on the first cross (and it is done quite a lot!) is that the results can be quite variable. The TB is pre-potent and an ISHxISH mating CAN result in a horse that's virtually pure TB - or a mix that doesn't really 'match' (ID body on TB legs, for example.)

A better cross is often an RID on ISH (for a bit more bone and substance) - OR a TB or WB on an ISH - for a horse with more speed and scope (but still hopefully retaining sufficient bone and a level head!)

But the first cross is an excellent one - (as stolensilver has demonstrated) and what we NEED to do is improve the parents on both sides; select RIDs more stringently for movement and athleticism (and that is now being done by requiring all ID colts to loose school over fences at grading and be independently judged for jumping ability by a senior BSJA representative) - and look JUST as critically at the TB part of the match. I would like us to go further and require mares for grading to jump as well - although that would cause a few complications as many people grade ID fillies at 2 and put them in foal at 3.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you Janet! I understand a bit better now, I think. So you are saying that the 'Draught' in 'Irish Draught' is maybe a bit of a misleading term? That the ID already has a fair bit of lighter/hotter/TB blood and is a sort of heavier 'WB' in its own right? I hope I have understood correctly!

Interesting what you say about the ISH x ISH not being a particularly successful cross - that would explain why we have not gone down that route (or not very much). But I don't understand: you say that ISH x ISH is often not successful cos the TB blood dominates too much and you end up with something that is too much like a pure TB, right? But then you say that TB x ISH is a better cross, and does work well - yet surely the TB blood would dominate even more in this case than in the ISH x ISH?

Or am I misunderstanding? Sorry to be so dim - I don't mean to nit-pick; I am just trying to get all this clear in my befuddled mind.
blush.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]


Thank you Janet! I understand a bit better now, I think. So you are saying that the 'Draught' in 'Irish Draught' is maybe a bit of a misleading term? That the ID already has a fair bit of lighter/hotter/TB blood and is a sort of heavier 'WB' in its own right? I hope I have understood correctly!

Interesting what you say about the ISH x ISH not being a particularly successful cross - that would explain why we have not gone down that route (or not very much). But I don't understand: you say that ISH x ISH is often not successful cos the TB blood dominates too much and you end up with something that is too much like a pure TB, right? But then you say that TB x ISH is a better cross, and does work well - yet surely the TB blood would dominate even more in this case than in the ISH x ISH?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the RID is rather more 'refined' today than it was 50 years ago and the 'draught' part IS misleading (although pure-bred RIDs can be fantastic carriage horses you wouldn't want to do too much ploughing behind them!
grin.gif
)

And yes - even in the first cross the TB CAN dominate - particularly if the draught side happens to have TB blood close up - but it's more likely when the TB is close up on BOTH sides.

You get a lot of variation, though, even in the straight TB x ISH:

to demonstrate:
The first pic is an RID gelding of the more 'modern' type.

for-sa10.jpg

(he's also rather too inbred for my liking - if he'd been a mare I'd have steered clear.) But he's a stunning little horse of whom a top dressage trainer has said he definitely has the potential to go PSG.

The second is an ISH with a lot of TB blood - close to 7/8ths!

for-sa9.jpg


He's bigger than the first, with PLENTY of bone, and looks like a 1st cross might!

And this chap has SLIGHTLY less TB than the 2nd - is MUCH slighter, less bone, and real TB action (and brain!) That's a perfect example of TB dominance - a lot of people who've seen him didn't believe he had ANY ID blood.

Guiness.jpg
 
And to add to the variation- my little man ( in my sig, the one with the white snip) who was by the I.D Kensons Aragorn and out of a TBx Trak mare, looks like he has absolutely no Irish Draught in him at all! He was predominantly a thoroughbred type- small and pony like. However, he certainly had the Irish Draught brain, willingness and toughness which made him an outstanding event horse.
 
welcome to the forum SS, really glad you've joined us as I know you will add plenty of good points of view to the mix.

And I totally agree with your points on breeders shouldn't use latest uber German stallion just becuase he is commercial (sorry to go off track) as I know just how different some of these stallions are in the flesh and how important it is to see as many offspring as possible. I know its very hard for breeders to get over to mainland Europe but if you can, you should. Its a real eye opener.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I know its very hard for breeders to get over to mainland Europe but if you can, you should. Its a real eye opener.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is good though is that a surprisingly large number of them to manage to get over to see the stallions, mares and youngstock, listen to the breeders and judges discuss what goes with what, why last years hot number did / did not live up to expectations etc -- and the number is growing every year.

When you see the quality of foals that have been gaining 1st premiums in the Futurity around the country -- and especially the ones that made it to the finals -- you do realise that (certainly amongst that sector of the industry) the correct, informed breeding decisions are being made here and the horse management skills are such that they are actually likely to be far sounder and of better temperament than their foreign cousins as well (no concrete yarding, zero turn out and high peercentage of operated-on joint mice for them by the age of 2 years old!).

Obviously this doesn't fill the gap created by the needs of the average or lesser rider UNLESS and UNTIL the breeders that say they address that market make a deliberate and promoted choice of using less athletic but mentally and physically sound graded parents on both sides of the pedigree and target the products to that market and also price them as what they are (ie good all-round mounts for the novice competitor not worldbeaters please <sigh>).

BTW, a word of clarification: a warmblood horse is not a straight cross between a hot blooded horse and a cold blooded one. Whilst the 18th and 19th century original breeding programmes were based on that rather extreme cross and a considerable amount of lighter blood was also introduced again after the war when the market changed to produce riding horses and more quality and speed was needed quickly to attract buyers, the TB and lightened up lines are now so prevalent that it does not really apply as an accurate description anymore.

The general definition accepted across most warmblood studbooks -- and what differentiates them from sports horse studbooks -- is that a warmblood is a horse with two parents graded into one of the established warmblood breeds developed in mainland Europe that use as a basis of their grading system an initial stringent conformational and paces grading followed by a series of on-going performance tests for work under saddle (could be at a testing centre and/or in competition) and progeny results in gradings and under saddle). Such horses are almost always required to have at least 5 geenrations of *proven* pedigree and even TB, Anglo, Shagya and Arab stallions that are graded into these studbooks usually have to undergo the grading tests even if they are winners on the race course (Stravinsky and Lauries Crusador are god examples of this). The whole system has also been running in most cases for 18-20 generations -- and sometimes for up to 200 years -- without the addition of any outside 'heavier' blood (I think the last case was the Holstein breed when it used some Cleveland Bay stallions in the late 1890s to improve its carriage horses). Some lines are heavier in bone than others --and recognsied and used as such where a little more substance would be desirable, but even they do not have the straight shoulders, long loins and flat croups that have gone with 'substance' in the past becuase those are essentially the qualities needed for horses that pull things (ie go into a collar on their forehand) and this is precisely not what is wanted in a modern competition horse.

Sports horse studbooks on the other hand do tend to accept horses far more on phenotype than genotype -- and some (I think we all know which ones) have pretty minimal (or bizarre interpretations of) performance / progeny testing requirements which is why it can be very difficult to sell a 'sports horse' papered colt as a stallion prospect to a country where a 'warmblood' society is dominant. Having sold a Pro-Set stallion prospect colt that was registered with one of these stud books (he was out of a highly graded KWPN mare) into a 'new' warmblood breeding country I can tell you that even there the resistance to the word 'sport' was very strong and I have also had to change the emphasis of the title of the book I am writing from sports horse to warmblood becuase 'the Americans won't be interested in a book about sports horses, they are only interested in warmbloods! (quote).

Yes, I know that the Americans by a lot of ISHs to compete on (especially in equitation and their extremely lucrative and competitive hunter classes) but we are talking breeding stock here, not riding horses.

Well, that's my little trip around the UK, Europe and the wider world done for today, but hopefully it does put it all into context a little more.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top