cruiseline
Well-Known Member
I also like no. 2 and 4, very nice mares.
Talking about stallion grading
- Thread starter JanetGeorge
- Start date
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
At what level was the chestnut horse in the photo Irish champion? I am assuming something like Elementary as:
1 I have seen very few horses working at top level whose head is the same length at his neck (not even Rusty <ROFL>
2 He is obviously working under considerable tension as the angle of the front cannon in extension is much flatter than that of the one in the lateral one behind. In a truely established tension free horse they should be the same (Yes I know they are often not, especially in auction photo trot, but we are talking long-term potential here as those auction trots sell well to the easily impressed but sadly often don't make it/stay sound to the top levels)
[ QUOTE ]
Nope, definitely not dressage horses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, not yet. Flashy mover in front ATM is all that I would say.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression that Roxy Music competed at GP level
correct me if i'm wrong
At what level was the chestnut horse in the photo Irish champion? I am assuming something like Elementary as:
1 I have seen very few horses working at top level whose head is the same length at his neck (not even Rusty <ROFL>
2 He is obviously working under considerable tension as the angle of the front cannon in extension is much flatter than that of the one in the lateral one behind. In a truely established tension free horse they should be the same (Yes I know they are often not, especially in auction photo trot, but we are talking long-term potential here as those auction trots sell well to the easily impressed but sadly often don't make it/stay sound to the top levels)
[ QUOTE ]
Nope, definitely not dressage horses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, not yet. Flashy mover in front ATM is all that I would say.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression that Roxy Music competed at GP level
magic104
Well-Known Member
She also was Triple Champion Ridden Hunter Mare at RDS Dublin Horse Show August '98. This mare has also qualified for Wembly 2006.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
[ QUOTE ]
I think this poster knows quite a bit
and any difference of opinion we may have is probably due to the fact that she tends to look at riding horses rather than broodmares and broodmares tend to have either lost (or never did have) the supporting musculature that ridden horse do. OTOH like me she tends to view horses as how fit they are for purpose -- or to be bred from to produce animals that are fitter for purpose -- rather than encouraging people to wait three or four equien generations to get a the result that we are looking for (but I will probably be dead by then anyway).
[/ QUOTE ]
Why thank you.
You are right, I look at horses with a view to getting on and riding them, so probably don't make enough allowances for changes in musculature in broodmares.
And I know nothing about breeding, and even less about Irish Draughts and their crosses. In the past, when I worked as a crash test dummy
I found Id x Tbs the most unpredictable, difficult rides, and would much rather have a full Tb, or Wb, so I haven't had much to do with them (sorry JanetGeorge, I'm probaby just unlucky).
S
I think this poster knows quite a bit
and any difference of opinion we may have is probably due to the fact that she tends to look at riding horses rather than broodmares and broodmares tend to have either lost (or never did have) the supporting musculature that ridden horse do. OTOH like me she tends to view horses as how fit they are for purpose -- or to be bred from to produce animals that are fitter for purpose -- rather than encouraging people to wait three or four equien generations to get a the result that we are looking for (but I will probably be dead by then anyway).[/ QUOTE ]
Why thank you.
And I know nothing about breeding, and even less about Irish Draughts and their crosses. In the past, when I worked as a crash test dummy
S
stolensilver
Well-Known Member
Ciss I think I know who you are and respect your opinion on bloodlines and stallions. However your comments on Claggan Roxy Music surprised me a great deal with their negativity. To my eyes the photo clearly shows a horse doing a good extended trot with elevation and expression. The hocks have more bend in them for this stage of the stride than most warmbloods exhibit even at major championships! Just look at the trot photos in this link of Olympic quality horses to see trots that show much more in front than behind.
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08hagen/photo_grandprix.html
You say that you see an "auction trot" which I interpret as being a trot with lots of flash in front but a back and loin and hind leg mechanicism that mean the horse is unable to carry weight behind and will always struggle with collection. I just don't see that at all. The muscling alone on that horse show that it is working at a high level and the push from behind is clear. "Auction trots" have back legs that spaddle along behind the horse, they don't show the flexion and stepping under that this Irish horse shows. Proof of the pudding is that this horse is competing very successfully at Grand Prix and with a young rider on board. In all honesty I have seen far more warmbloods that move out behind than I ever have ID crosses. "Auction trot" itself is a term that comes from Europe from people who have been burned by buying a warmblood with poor mechanics. The term does not come from the UK or Ireland.
Interestingly Roxy's sire Rakish Paddy was an international Grade A showjumper in his own right. Goodness, versatility and ability in first generation Irish Draught crosses! (Sorry, couldn't resist it.
)
I really do believe that Irish horses can and will become a force to be reckoned with in dressage. They are different from warmbloods just as Spanish horses are different from warmbloods but in the same way a good Irish horse has the ability to stand in any company. There already have been several competing at GP level. Now that dressage is becoming more and more popular I think it is only a matter of time before an outstanding Irish horse is teamed up with an outstanding dressage rider and the combination is able to challenge the best of the warmbloods.
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08hagen/photo_grandprix.html
You say that you see an "auction trot" which I interpret as being a trot with lots of flash in front but a back and loin and hind leg mechanicism that mean the horse is unable to carry weight behind and will always struggle with collection. I just don't see that at all. The muscling alone on that horse show that it is working at a high level and the push from behind is clear. "Auction trots" have back legs that spaddle along behind the horse, they don't show the flexion and stepping under that this Irish horse shows. Proof of the pudding is that this horse is competing very successfully at Grand Prix and with a young rider on board. In all honesty I have seen far more warmbloods that move out behind than I ever have ID crosses. "Auction trot" itself is a term that comes from Europe from people who have been burned by buying a warmblood with poor mechanics. The term does not come from the UK or Ireland.
Interestingly Roxy's sire Rakish Paddy was an international Grade A showjumper in his own right. Goodness, versatility and ability in first generation Irish Draught crosses! (Sorry, couldn't resist it.
I really do believe that Irish horses can and will become a force to be reckoned with in dressage. They are different from warmbloods just as Spanish horses are different from warmbloods but in the same way a good Irish horse has the ability to stand in any company. There already have been several competing at GP level. Now that dressage is becoming more and more popular I think it is only a matter of time before an outstanding Irish horse is teamed up with an outstanding dressage rider and the combination is able to challenge the best of the warmbloods.
spaniel
Well-Known Member
Just a quick post to say a BIG thank you for such a great, interesting, educational and entertaining thread and to wish JG all the best with the boys grading next time, both are lovely lads and Id be proud to own any of your mares too.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
It's been a great thread, still going strong after several days with very many views so it must have caught the imagination somewhere!
I'd like to say thank you too, it's been riveting and I've learnt so much about the Irish draught; thank you one and all.
Perhaps it's not beyond the realms of possibility that other breed breeders could do similar threads on their own breeds; it would be fascinating to learn about breeds from the people that actually know them as opposed to just out of a book.
I'd like to say thank you too, it's been riveting and I've learnt so much about the Irish draught; thank you one and all.
Perhaps it's not beyond the realms of possibility that other breed breeders could do similar threads on their own breeds; it would be fascinating to learn about breeds from the people that actually know them as opposed to just out of a book.
htobago
Well-Known Member
I agree - excellent thread! Thank you so much Janet for posting all those photos (and to the others who posted super photos of IDs) - I now have a much better idea of the breed type/standard.
Isn't this a lovely forum? I ask a totally numpty-novice question and immediately everyone rushes to educate and enlighten me - and it prompts a fascinating exchange of expert views!
A certain person on here recently told me I should keep out of discussions on subjects on which I had no knowledge - that I had nothing to contribute and only made myself look stupid. I replied that I was here to learn, not to show off, didn't mind looking stupid and would continue to ask naive questions, as they often seemed to provoke interesting debates.
QED!
I am still, however, totally unqualified to judge IDs, so will not even attempt to comment on the photos - especially as even the experts seem to disagree quite dramatically in their assessments of these horses!
Isn't this a lovely forum? I ask a totally numpty-novice question and immediately everyone rushes to educate and enlighten me - and it prompts a fascinating exchange of expert views!
A certain person on here recently told me I should keep out of discussions on subjects on which I had no knowledge - that I had nothing to contribute and only made myself look stupid. I replied that I was here to learn, not to show off, didn't mind looking stupid and would continue to ask naive questions, as they often seemed to provoke interesting debates.
QED!
I am still, however, totally unqualified to judge IDs, so will not even attempt to comment on the photos - especially as even the experts seem to disagree quite dramatically in their assessments of these horses!
htobago
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ciss I think I know who you are and respect your opinion on bloodlines and stallions. However your comments on Claggan Roxy Music surprised me a great deal with their negativity. To my eyes the photo clearly shows a horse doing a good extended trot with elevation and expression. The hocks have more bend in them for this stage of the stride than most warmbloods exhibit even at major championships! Just look at the trot photos in this link of Olympic quality horses to see trots that show much more in front than behind.
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08hagen/photo_grandprix.html
[/ QUOTE ]
My goodness you are right SS - I'm no expert but as far as I can see, only one horse in this link (Sterntaler) is showing as good action behind as Claggan Roxy Music!
Ciss I think I know who you are and respect your opinion on bloodlines and stallions. However your comments on Claggan Roxy Music surprised me a great deal with their negativity. To my eyes the photo clearly shows a horse doing a good extended trot with elevation and expression. The hocks have more bend in them for this stage of the stride than most warmbloods exhibit even at major championships! Just look at the trot photos in this link of Olympic quality horses to see trots that show much more in front than behind.
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08hagen/photo_grandprix.html
[/ QUOTE ]
My goodness you are right SS - I'm no expert but as far as I can see, only one horse in this link (Sterntaler) is showing as good action behind as Claggan Roxy Music!
Ciss
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ciss I think I know who you are and respect your opinion on bloodlines and stallions. However your comments on Claggan Roxy Music surprised me a great deal with their negativity. To my eyes the photo clearly shows a horse doing a good extended trot with elevation and expression. The hocks have more bend in them for this stage of the stride than most warmbloods exhibit even at major championships! Just look at the trot photos in this link of Olympic quality horses to see trots that show much more in front than behind.
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08hagen/photo_grandprix.html
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, bearing in mind that the horse concerned is apparently doing GP -- but ca 65% max at national level is not really what you would call impressive by international standards I had a look at the photos in the link and would like to make the following comments -- and to emphasise that I am looking at suppleness, flexion and engagement regardless of breed or type (ie I do know some warmbloods that look/perform/apparently move like the ID mare in question but I'm not keen on them either as it is not what I look for to convey the right indication of correctly established stages of training building on superior natural talent and biodynamic construction for long-term soundness.
Not all of the horses that were apparently showing extended trot were actually moving on a straight line as quite a few of them -- including Gachino, Rambo, Vincent, Rigoletto (loved him) and Charatan -- were doing lateral work where the angle of the front leg is more likely to be a coping measure for a temporary loos of balance than a tension due to lack of flexion.
Of the remainder:
(i) we all know that Satchmo can be very tense and this was probably one of the occassions when he expressed it in the angle at the front (just wonder what the mark was for that movement though)
(ii) I agree that Whisper and Maksymilian are both showing non-parallel movement, but the fact that they are not doing it doesn't mean it isn't important
(ii) I agree that on these pix Steinhaler is much the best mover and his cannon bone angles are the same even though the front leg is considerably higher and this is what is really rewquired in this movement (OTOH, he did score 10 for gaits and that is probably the difference)
(iii) Andretti does show almost parallel cannons with the front leg a little higher so let's hope Laura B can maintain this in the future whilst Leibling definetly needs to show more flexion in the knee (a symptom of the tension that Carl implies he has in this week's HH, perhaps Carl will be able to resolve/improve that)
(iv) Pirosschka completely lacks any power or muscle structure to support this level of extension hence the rather unimpressive outline
(v) Donna Carrera's photo must be a bad one as age appears to be loosing balance and not coming through from behind.
Perhaps again those are pretty negative comments but we are talking top level here and that is probably where the issue lies.
[ QUOTE ]
You say that you see an "auction trot" which I interpret as being a trot with lots of flash in front but a back and loin and hind leg mechanicism that mean the horse is unable to carry weight behind and will always struggle with collection. I just don't see that at all. The muscling alone on that horse show that it is working at a high level and the push from behind is clear. "Auction trots" have back legs that spaddle along behind the horse, they don't show the flexion and stepping under that this Irish horse shows.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with yiou about what an auction trot normally looks like but one of the chief charateristics is that there is little or not flexion shown when in extreme extension and I am afraid that for all the national success this horse has had that is still much too evident. That is why the mare (what a masculine looking mare as well, I thought she was a stallion!) is still probably getting the scores she is rather than higher ones.
[ QUOTE ]
Proof of the pudding is that this horse is competing very successfully at Grand Prix and with a young rider on board.
[/ QUOTE ]
But the pudding still has a lot of cooking to be done before it becomes the equine equal to a Raymond Blanc desert, which is what a top class GP Special / Kur should be viewed as in this context
[ QUOTE ]
In all honesty I have seen far more warmbloods that move out behind than I ever have ID crosses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats certainly true but then far more warmbloods compete in higher level (or probably any) dressage (apart from eventing dressage) than do IDs or ID crosses but just beciase many warmbloods do it certainly doesn't make it right in any way.
[ QUOTE ]
"Auction trot" itself is a term that comes from Europe from people who have been burned by buying a warmblood with poor mechanics. The term does not come from the UK or Ireland.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did of course know that, and I know what the purpose of it is but that doesn't mean (again) that other breeds cannot show it and that it cannot be just as undesirable in a young horse in any non warmblood breed as a basis for long-term international success and soundness.
[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly Roxy's sire Rakish Paddy was an international Grade A showjumper in his own right. Goodness, versatility and ability in first generation Irish Draught crosses! (Sorry, couldn't resist it.
)
[/ QUOTE ]
That is interesting as normally sj sires are used to add knee bend in horses that tend to have a big auction trot in their dam lines. Perhaps he had rather a lot of TB in him (Rakish Paddy I mean) and/or the dam's mare did and togther that has inhinbited the transmission of the trot flexion --- although it would improve the quality of the walk and canter marks, where many of the multipliers lie, and that in turn could be the reason why she has been able to progress to GP. There are, after all 3 paces in dressage, which is also where the auction trotters (who often cannot walk and canter) can fall down at higher levels.
[ QUOTE ]
I really do believe that Irish horses can and will become a force to be reckoned with in dressage. They are different from warmbloods just as Spanish horses are different from warmbloods but in the same way a good Irish horse has the ability to stand in any company. There already have been several competing at GP level. Now that dressage is becoming more and more popular I think it is only a matter of time before an outstanding Irish horse is teamed up with an outstanding dressage rider and the combination is able to challenge the best of the warmbloods.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well time will tell and as it takes about 5 years for even the most talented horses to make it to a good established GP level it could be quite long time, especially as mots established riders (the ones who regularly train and compete GP horses successfully) tend to select from bloodlines that have already been there, done that and bought the T shirt so that they do not waste too much time on hoprses that may fall besdie the wayside. This means that the take up of Iberian breeds (both as trainee GP horses outside the Iberian peninsula and as bloodline sources of possible new dressage talent) has been very slow compared to how well they have shown in international classes over the past 8 years (and these are breeds that have a proven natural aptitude for accpeting dressage training developed over 100s of years remember) so what you predict may happen but if it does it will almost be of an even slower progression than that of the spanish and portuguese breeds.
At least that is what I think but then what do I know? <ROFL>
Ciss I think I know who you are and respect your opinion on bloodlines and stallions. However your comments on Claggan Roxy Music surprised me a great deal with their negativity. To my eyes the photo clearly shows a horse doing a good extended trot with elevation and expression. The hocks have more bend in them for this stage of the stride than most warmbloods exhibit even at major championships! Just look at the trot photos in this link of Olympic quality horses to see trots that show much more in front than behind.
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2008/08hagen/photo_grandprix.html
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, bearing in mind that the horse concerned is apparently doing GP -- but ca 65% max at national level is not really what you would call impressive by international standards I had a look at the photos in the link and would like to make the following comments -- and to emphasise that I am looking at suppleness, flexion and engagement regardless of breed or type (ie I do know some warmbloods that look/perform/apparently move like the ID mare in question but I'm not keen on them either as it is not what I look for to convey the right indication of correctly established stages of training building on superior natural talent and biodynamic construction for long-term soundness.
Not all of the horses that were apparently showing extended trot were actually moving on a straight line as quite a few of them -- including Gachino, Rambo, Vincent, Rigoletto (loved him
) and Charatan -- were doing lateral work where the angle of the front leg is more likely to be a coping measure for a temporary loos of balance than a tension due to lack of flexion.Of the remainder:
(i) we all know that Satchmo can be very tense and this was probably one of the occassions when he expressed it in the angle at the front (just wonder what the mark was for that movement though)
(ii) I agree that Whisper and Maksymilian are both showing non-parallel movement, but the fact that they are not doing it doesn't mean it isn't important
(ii) I agree that on these pix Steinhaler is much the best mover and his cannon bone angles are the same even though the front leg is considerably higher and this is what is really rewquired in this movement (OTOH, he did score 10 for gaits and that is probably the difference
)(iii) Andretti does show almost parallel cannons with the front leg a little higher so let's hope Laura B can maintain this in the future whilst Leibling definetly needs to show more flexion in the knee (a symptom of the tension that Carl implies he has in this week's HH, perhaps Carl will be able to resolve/improve that)
(iv) Pirosschka completely lacks any power or muscle structure to support this level of extension hence the rather unimpressive outline
(v) Donna Carrera's photo must be a bad one as age appears to be loosing balance and not coming through from behind.
Perhaps again those are pretty negative comments but we are talking top level here and that is probably where the issue lies.
[ QUOTE ]
You say that you see an "auction trot" which I interpret as being a trot with lots of flash in front but a back and loin and hind leg mechanicism that mean the horse is unable to carry weight behind and will always struggle with collection. I just don't see that at all. The muscling alone on that horse show that it is working at a high level and the push from behind is clear. "Auction trots" have back legs that spaddle along behind the horse, they don't show the flexion and stepping under that this Irish horse shows.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with yiou about what an auction trot normally looks like but one of the chief charateristics is that there is little or not flexion shown when in extreme extension and I am afraid that for all the national success this horse has had that is still much too evident. That is why the mare (what a masculine looking mare as well, I thought she was a stallion!) is still probably getting the scores she is rather than higher ones.
[ QUOTE ]
Proof of the pudding is that this horse is competing very successfully at Grand Prix and with a young rider on board.
[/ QUOTE ]
But the pudding still has a lot of cooking to be done before it becomes the equine equal to a Raymond Blanc desert, which is what a top class GP Special / Kur should be viewed as in this context
[ QUOTE ]
In all honesty I have seen far more warmbloods that move out behind than I ever have ID crosses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats certainly true but then far more warmbloods compete in higher level (or probably any) dressage (apart from eventing dressage) than do IDs or ID crosses but just beciase many warmbloods do it certainly doesn't make it right in any way.
[ QUOTE ]
"Auction trot" itself is a term that comes from Europe from people who have been burned by buying a warmblood with poor mechanics. The term does not come from the UK or Ireland.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did of course know that, and I know what the purpose of it is but that doesn't mean (again) that other breeds cannot show it and that it cannot be just as undesirable in a young horse in any non warmblood breed as a basis for long-term international success and soundness.
[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly Roxy's sire Rakish Paddy was an international Grade A showjumper in his own right. Goodness, versatility and ability in first generation Irish Draught crosses! (Sorry, couldn't resist it.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is interesting as normally sj sires are used to add knee bend in horses that tend to have a big auction trot in their dam lines. Perhaps he had rather a lot of TB in him (Rakish Paddy I mean) and/or the dam's mare did and togther that has inhinbited the transmission of the trot flexion --- although it would improve the quality of the walk and canter marks, where many of the multipliers lie, and that in turn could be the reason why she has been able to progress to GP. There are, after all 3 paces in dressage, which is also where the auction trotters (who often cannot walk and canter) can fall down at higher levels.
[ QUOTE ]
I really do believe that Irish horses can and will become a force to be reckoned with in dressage. They are different from warmbloods just as Spanish horses are different from warmbloods but in the same way a good Irish horse has the ability to stand in any company. There already have been several competing at GP level. Now that dressage is becoming more and more popular I think it is only a matter of time before an outstanding Irish horse is teamed up with an outstanding dressage rider and the combination is able to challenge the best of the warmbloods.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well time will tell and as it takes about 5 years for even the most talented horses to make it to a good established GP level it could be quite long time, especially as mots established riders (the ones who regularly train and compete GP horses successfully) tend to select from bloodlines that have already been there, done that and bought the T shirt so that they do not waste too much time on hoprses that may fall besdie the wayside. This means that the take up of Iberian breeds (both as trainee GP horses outside the Iberian peninsula and as bloodline sources of possible new dressage talent) has been very slow compared to how well they have shown in international classes over the past 8 years (and these are breeds that have a proven natural aptitude for accpeting dressage training developed over 100s of years remember) so what you predict may happen but if it does it will almost be of an even slower progression than that of the spanish and portuguese breeds.
At least that is what I think but then what do I know? <ROFL>
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
So here goes, and apologies to anyone's dearest product who feels they have been slighted but the photos were put up, comments were asked for
[/ QUOTE ]
Um - actually, conformation critiques were NOT asked for - the pics were put up in response to htobago's question about ID 'type'. I don't mind my mares being hatcheted on a public forum (much!) but I would have preferred if comments were made that:
1) did NOT judge them on WB standards - they are RID mares and comparing them to WB breeds is comparing apples to oranges.
2) took a little more account of their ages - and the fact that all with the exception of the 2 year old are nearing the end of lactation and rearing BIG foals, which naturally takes its toll on toplines and rear-ends (unless you want to risk screwing up the foals by shoving vast quatities of stud mix into the mares.)
3) recognised that the pics were opportunistic snaps taken by my equine degree student who was trying to stay oujt of the way of the graders - angles (vertical and horizontal) can be misleading - as can the fact they are standing on sloping concrete (most heads high) which makes the front-end look 'bigger' than the back end.
[ QUOTE ]
Neck rather low set in front and could be freer in throat (to allow for flexion in poll). However, this type of neck set can allow a horse to raise its head when assessing the size of a fence so they are often quite clean jumpers. Slightly steep croup (also jumper point) but needs more quality overall for modern sports horse breeding (not SHBGB, I'm talking true WBFSH here
) points. Bottom end of main studbook. 2/5[/ QUOTE ]
I'm actually surprised that an immature RID filly would make it to the low end of a sport horse main studbook - maybe that's a thought - she's a bit too 'modern' for some ID judges!
[ QUOTE ]
Number 2 - nicer head, and neck, with more sloping shoulder. Bit long in the back, and seems slightly light of bone from what I would expect. The feet are quite small, too, and the gaskin short.
[/ QUOTE ]
She has 9.25 inches of bone which is plenty for a 16 hh, 4 yo RID - she'll mature to about 9.5 inches (which is more than some RID stallions have, more's the pity!)
[ QUOTE ]
Number 3
Better type of broodmare. Modern strong, harmonious sports horse type of mare but camped out behind and back at the knee plus large and flat feet so lower type of main studbook mark (1/5)
[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely not back at the knee though I'd agree that her feet are a little on the large side (although that is GOOD in IDs - the flat NOT so good.) Not sure what you mean by 'camped out behind'. She IS a 'quality premium mare' in Ireland AND has 2 Hornby's in the UK so I'll probably not worry too much about how she compares to a WB.
[ QUOTE ]
Number 4
Best head of the lot but again camped out behind and back at the knee. Very short second thigh and upright pasterns all road. Looks like could have had sacariliac problem at some time so she may have had a jumping career in the past
[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely not back at the knee - not standing well - and no jumping career - she's 6 and was lightly backed at 3 before being put in foal. And never had a sacro-iliac problem -she's not carrying much top-line as big foal has pulled her down a bit. And she won't be 'mature' for another two years. Her only competitive outing was 2nd in a very strong 2 yo class at the Irish National Breed Show!
[ QUOTE ]
Two different horses. Strong well-muscled front and middle peice but weak behind and actually rtaher straight hind leg compared to others but still sloghtly camped out behind. Flat, large feet. Prelim stud book 5/5
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the angle deceives you - she's got a good back end although again lightened off with large foal - I had to restrict mare's feeding a bit as foal grew too fast and tendons contracted above the knee (she's fine now.) Mare got her 3rd Hornby and is now a Hornby Select mare. Again, big feet are GOOD in the ID - and they're definitely not flat.
[ QUOTE ]
Apologies again if I have hurt anyone's feelings / punctured their world view happy bubble, but opinions were asked for
[/ QUOTE ]
Again - actually they weren't (as stated earlier) but interesting anyway.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
That is interesting as normally sj sires are used to add knee bend in horses that tend to have a big auction trot in their dam lines. Perhaps he had rather a lot of TB in him (Rakish Paddy I mean) and/or the dam's mare did and togther that has inhinbited the transmission of the trot flexion ---
[/ QUOTE ]
Rakish Paddy is old RID bloodlines - back to Galty Boy and Clonfert on the sire side and Irish Mail on the dam's side. There are a few holes in his pedigree 3 generations back on the dam lines but they are more likely to be AID/unregistered Ids than TBs.
Claggan Roxy Music's dam is a TB mare (Urcher Beauty). Rakish Paddy only sired 197 registered foals in his career - many of them decent showjumpers although his IHB listing only includes details of about 25 of them - and Roxy Music's accomplishments are not listed. This is one of the most frustrating things about RID sires - their contribution to the modern sport horse is so often unrecorded!
That is interesting as normally sj sires are used to add knee bend in horses that tend to have a big auction trot in their dam lines. Perhaps he had rather a lot of TB in him (Rakish Paddy I mean) and/or the dam's mare did and togther that has inhinbited the transmission of the trot flexion ---
[/ QUOTE ]
Rakish Paddy is old RID bloodlines - back to Galty Boy and Clonfert on the sire side and Irish Mail on the dam's side. There are a few holes in his pedigree 3 generations back on the dam lines but they are more likely to be AID/unregistered Ids than TBs.
Claggan Roxy Music's dam is a TB mare (Urcher Beauty). Rakish Paddy only sired 197 registered foals in his career - many of them decent showjumpers although his IHB listing only includes details of about 25 of them - and Roxy Music's accomplishments are not listed. This is one of the most frustrating things about RID sires - their contribution to the modern sport horse is so often unrecorded!
GlamourDol
Well-Known Member
Quite glad im not sat on the bay during those Yee Haa moments.
Janet, bit of a random one, but have you ever bred arabs?
Janet, bit of a random one, but have you ever bred arabs?
Ciss
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Again - actually they weren't (as stated earlier) but interesting anyway.
I know my mares' faults and strengths - none of them is 'perfect' even as RID but JUDGED as RIDs - rather than as WBs/sport horses - they're all at the higher end of the scale.
[/ QUOTE ]
The very reason I did this was becuase there does seem to be some misconception (not, I have to say very often corrected by the OP) that the ID is what wb studbooks should be looking for to make their products more user friendly to lower level riders. Apart from ignoring the fact that many less athletic looking animals produced by wb and sports horse stud books outside Ireland do actually have the qualities that these riders need I did feel it was vital to point out how different even 'modern' ID's are to the requirements of modern successful warmblood and general sports horse studbooks and how hard it would be to make the leap in say three generations let alone one.
I understand your point about lost Irish pedigrees too, but other studbooks never allowed this to happen and it may be sad that ID and ID X breeders of today are having to pay the price when it comes to inclusion in breeding studbooks outside Ireland that require at least (say) 5 proven generations. OTOH, I have to say that I think that had the KWPN considered those Irish mares that it has graded in as Basic with no pedigree (which was mentioned in an earlier post in this thread) could be viewed as potential dam lines for future stallions within a reasonablenumber of generations then they would have moved hell and high water to find out how they were bred. But they didn't and I have to say I think that says it all.
BTW, the comment on the first horse was not mine (I do not use the word gaskins but I agree with the comment) so if you were trying to pick on me for all the comments it went a bit wrong there.
OTOH, I think you would have to credit me with a bit more knowledge of broodmares than to mistake loss of condition through lactation with actual skeletal construction -- like you I am no lover of mares carrying too much condition anyway -- but addinga few pounds on to the quarters does not make a short, pointed or flat croup into a long or powerful one as no muscling can be correct where the bones are not so.
Sorry but you did raise the point of condition and you must realsie that I regularly see mares of all shapes and sizes -- and in all stages of pregnancy or none -- so the thought that someone thinks that superficial condition would make any impression on me I find rather amusing, but also sad as it does show that the prevalance for show ring condition might still be thought important when grading a mare (though not I ahve to say to the ID studbook as the OP makes clear).
We are all here on this forum to hopefully learn from each other. I now know rather more about what is -- and what is not -- required in an ID and ID X in order to grade. I may not agree with it but at least I know where the studbook and its graders are coming to within the context in which I view horses.
HTH
Again - actually they weren't (as stated earlier) but interesting anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]
The very reason I did this was becuase there does seem to be some misconception (not, I have to say very often corrected by the OP) that the ID is what wb studbooks should be looking for to make their products more user friendly to lower level riders. Apart from ignoring the fact that many less athletic looking animals produced by wb and sports horse stud books outside Ireland do actually have the qualities that these riders need I did feel it was vital to point out how different even 'modern' ID's are to the requirements of modern successful warmblood and general sports horse studbooks and how hard it would be to make the leap in say three generations let alone one.
I understand your point about lost Irish pedigrees too, but other studbooks never allowed this to happen and it may be sad that ID and ID X breeders of today are having to pay the price when it comes to inclusion in breeding studbooks outside Ireland that require at least (say) 5 proven generations. OTOH, I have to say that I think that had the KWPN considered those Irish mares that it has graded in as Basic with no pedigree (which was mentioned in an earlier post in this thread) could be viewed as potential dam lines for future stallions within a reasonablenumber of generations then they would have moved hell and high water to find out how they were bred. But they didn't and I have to say I think that says it all.
BTW, the comment on the first horse was not mine (I do not use the word gaskins but I agree with the comment) so if you were trying to pick on me for all the comments it went a bit wrong there.
OTOH, I think you would have to credit me with a bit more knowledge of broodmares than to mistake loss of condition through lactation with actual skeletal construction -- like you I am no lover of mares carrying too much condition anyway -- but addinga few pounds on to the quarters does not make a short, pointed or flat croup into a long or powerful one as no muscling can be correct where the bones are not so.
Sorry but you did raise the point of condition and you must realsie that I regularly see mares of all shapes and sizes -- and in all stages of pregnancy or none -- so the thought that someone thinks that superficial condition would make any impression on me I find rather amusing, but also sad as it does show that the prevalance for show ring condition might still be thought important when grading a mare (though not I ahve to say to the ID studbook as the OP makes clear).
We are all here on this forum to hopefully learn from each other. I now know rather more about what is -- and what is not -- required in an ID and ID X in order to grade. I may not agree with it but at least I know where the studbook and its graders are coming to within the context in which I view horses.
HTH
stolensilver
Well-Known Member
Hmmm Ciss so there are excuses for each and every photo of a warmblood GP horse not having the cannon bone angles parallel but on the basis of just one photo you can rate the Irish mare as inferior? I don't agree and don't think you have done yourself any favours with that post. IMHO if you are going to use exclusion clauses they should be applied equally to all. The Irish mare has a young rider on her back. How much higher might her score have been if Carl had been riding her? Or Isabelle? 65% at GP with international judges (one was from Germany) is good! It would be in the top 5 at many World Cup qualifiers.
Regarding riders choosing bloodlines that are successful are you talking about riders from Europe? The UK dressage riders I know are all totally uninterested in bloodlines, they just look at the horse in front of them. If it is a good horse they are interested. It could be a donkey x zebra but if it moved and had a good brain they would consider buying and training it. Perhaps this is why the UK has had some "unusual" dressage horses such as Arun Tor with his Cleveland Bay blood or Mr President with his unknown breeding?
I do agree that at the moment warmbloods are the commonest breed that you see in GP dressage. What I don't agree with is that Irish Draught crosses are no hopers in dressage. There are some very talented ID x TBs out there with great ability. One of my favourites is M.J. Fine Art. He is schooling GP at home and highly rated by Steven Clarke the "O" judge. He's won at Premier leagues in PSG and Inter 1. And his owner and rider is an amateur. He is the first horse she's trained to GP. The best part is that M.J. Fine Art is a stallion. Perhaps one of his offspring will be the one to challenge the warmbloods in international dressage competition?
Regarding riders choosing bloodlines that are successful are you talking about riders from Europe? The UK dressage riders I know are all totally uninterested in bloodlines, they just look at the horse in front of them. If it is a good horse they are interested. It could be a donkey x zebra but if it moved and had a good brain they would consider buying and training it. Perhaps this is why the UK has had some "unusual" dressage horses such as Arun Tor with his Cleveland Bay blood or Mr President with his unknown breeding?
I do agree that at the moment warmbloods are the commonest breed that you see in GP dressage. What I don't agree with is that Irish Draught crosses are no hopers in dressage. There are some very talented ID x TBs out there with great ability. One of my favourites is M.J. Fine Art. He is schooling GP at home and highly rated by Steven Clarke the "O" judge. He's won at Premier leagues in PSG and Inter 1. And his owner and rider is an amateur. He is the first horse she's trained to GP. The best part is that M.J. Fine Art is a stallion. Perhaps one of his offspring will be the one to challenge the warmbloods in international dressage competition?
stolensilver
Well-Known Member
You asked about Irish mares being graded into the Dutch books. I've just spent half an hour looking for the website that spells this out very clearly but it is no longer there. It used to be on Stallions Direct and I think it was in the pedigree of the stallion Jazz Dancer (although I may be remembering that wrongly). The damline on that website said it was an irish showjumping mare who was graded with the KWPN based on her competition record but they only let her into the KWPN book as a mare of unknown breeding because Irish blood is not allowed!!! That is the reason that you won't officially find any Irish mares in the KWPN. Irish Draught is not warmblood and therefore officially cannot be accepted. So they lose the papers but accept the horses.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
I am sorry, JanetGeorge, I did not mean to offend by my comments (some of which you attributed to Ciss), but you did say;
<font color="blue"> 'Well I just HAPPENED to be sorting some pics from our mare inspections last Monday - so here are a few RID mares & fillies. I know what I think, I know what the Inspectors thought (and I didn't necessarily agree in every case ) - so test your knowledge. I won't give any hints about age etc. - you be the judge!' </font>
So I did try to guess which ones were considered truer to type by the Inspectors, despite my complete lack of knowledge of ID breed standards which I pointed out.
I have no hidden agenda, no idea which were yours, what ages they were or anything about them, so if I have made errors in my guesses, they were through a genuine lack of knowledge of all things Irish Draughty, rather than an attempt to slight your breeding stock.
S
<font color="blue"> 'Well I just HAPPENED to be sorting some pics from our mare inspections last Monday - so here are a few RID mares & fillies. I know what I think, I know what the Inspectors thought (and I didn't necessarily agree in every case ) - so test your knowledge. I won't give any hints about age etc. - you be the judge!' </font>
So I did try to guess which ones were considered truer to type by the Inspectors, despite my complete lack of knowledge of ID breed standards which I pointed out.
I have no hidden agenda, no idea which were yours, what ages they were or anything about them, so if I have made errors in my guesses, they were through a genuine lack of knowledge of all things Irish Draughty, rather than an attempt to slight your breeding stock.
S
stolensilver
Well-Known Member
This is M.J. Fine Art. He's just as nice in the flesh. Edited to add what is interesting about this stallion is that he is 3rd generation IDSH x IDSH.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
Here are his details too. I agree, he is a lovely horse and is on my short list for next year. Very handy as he's only four mile away!
http://mjsportshorses.co.uk/welcome.html
http://mjsportshorses.co.uk/welcome.html
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The very reason I did this was becuase there does seem to be some misconception (not, I have to say very often corrected by the OP) that the ID is what wb studbooks should be looking for to make their products more user friendly to lower level riders.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's never been suggested by me - and I haven't actually seen anyone advocating it. The IDSH(GB) doesn't accept sport horse registrations from horses with European WB breeding. The Irish Horse Board allows almost ANYTHING into the ISH as long as they are 'approved' by the IHB. And I see no particular reason why WB stud books SHOULD introduce ID blood - although they do mix and match from almost anywhere too.
[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, I have to say that I think that had the KWPN considered those Irish mares that it has graded in as Basic with no pedigree (which was mentioned in an earlier post in this thread) could be viewed as potential dam lines for future stallions within a reasonable number of generations then they would have moved hell and high water to find out how they were bred. But they didn't and I have to say I think that says it all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it says nothing other than that the Irish were pretty bad at keeping records. A friend of mine bought a mare - fully passported in Ireland with a complete 3 generation pedigree - eligible RID. When it was DNA'd, it was NOT by the stallion it was meant to be by and strenuous efforts have failed to determine which stallion the mare was actually by! It couldn't be graded RID. So if a mare whose passport shows supposedly all her breeding can't be tracked, what chance would the KWPN have of tracking mares whose breeding was genuinely unknown?
But it seems the KWPN doesn't really care what breed a horse is as long as it fits their requirements. I have a WBxISH by a KWPN graded stallion who is actually pure Selle Francais.
[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, I think you would have to credit me with a bit more knowledge of broodmares than to mistake loss of condition through lactation with actual skeletal construction -- like you I am no lover of mares carrying too much condition anyway -- but addinga few pounds on to the quarters does not make a short, pointed or flat croup into a long or powerful one as no muscling can be correct where the bones are not so.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're AMAZINGLY clever if you can judge a horse so comprehensively from one snapshot. Most experienced judges I know would want to look at a horse from several angles before condemning it out of hand (particularly if they were not familiar with the breed standard!)
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but you did raise the point of condition and you must realsie that I regularly see mares of all shapes and sizes
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually - all I KNOW about you is your H&H username - and the fact you're prepared to declare you know FAR more about Irish Draughts than the experienced ID judges who graded these mares! And several of them have been assessed 3 or 4 times by 3/4 different teams (of 3) Inspectors. And - with one or two exceptions - the scoring has been remarkably consistent. I hope anyone reading this doesn't take YOUR word that my mares are cr*p (because they're not!)
[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry, JanetGeorge, I did not mean to offend by my comments (some of which you attributed to Ciss)
[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't offend, Shilasdair, not least because you made it clear you were giving impressions of which ones appealed and why rather than passing jugement as an 'expert'. As I said, I DID post them in response to htobago's question about 'types' of RID rather than for detailed conformation critique. And on that point: the minimum scored for 'type' (out of 25) was 19 on the older mares (can't remember the filly's score but it wouldn't have been MUCH below that.)
I can't remember ALL the individual scores (sheets haven't come back yet) but in past years, scores for type were: mare 2 - 22; mare 3 - 23 (twice) - but 19 this year as Inspectors were somewhat biased towards 'traditional'; and mare 4 - 20 and 22 (only 19 this year - same reason!)
The very reason I did this was becuase there does seem to be some misconception (not, I have to say very often corrected by the OP) that the ID is what wb studbooks should be looking for to make their products more user friendly to lower level riders.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's never been suggested by me - and I haven't actually seen anyone advocating it. The IDSH(GB) doesn't accept sport horse registrations from horses with European WB breeding. The Irish Horse Board allows almost ANYTHING into the ISH as long as they are 'approved' by the IHB. And I see no particular reason why WB stud books SHOULD introduce ID blood - although they do mix and match from almost anywhere too.
[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, I have to say that I think that had the KWPN considered those Irish mares that it has graded in as Basic with no pedigree (which was mentioned in an earlier post in this thread) could be viewed as potential dam lines for future stallions within a reasonable number of generations then they would have moved hell and high water to find out how they were bred. But they didn't and I have to say I think that says it all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually it says nothing other than that the Irish were pretty bad at keeping records. A friend of mine bought a mare - fully passported in Ireland with a complete 3 generation pedigree - eligible RID. When it was DNA'd, it was NOT by the stallion it was meant to be by and strenuous efforts have failed to determine which stallion the mare was actually by! It couldn't be graded RID. So if a mare whose passport shows supposedly all her breeding can't be tracked, what chance would the KWPN have of tracking mares whose breeding was genuinely unknown?
But it seems the KWPN doesn't really care what breed a horse is as long as it fits their requirements. I have a WBxISH by a KWPN graded stallion who is actually pure Selle Francais.
[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, I think you would have to credit me with a bit more knowledge of broodmares than to mistake loss of condition through lactation with actual skeletal construction -- like you I am no lover of mares carrying too much condition anyway -- but addinga few pounds on to the quarters does not make a short, pointed or flat croup into a long or powerful one as no muscling can be correct where the bones are not so.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're AMAZINGLY clever if you can judge a horse so comprehensively from one snapshot. Most experienced judges I know would want to look at a horse from several angles before condemning it out of hand (particularly if they were not familiar with the breed standard!)
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but you did raise the point of condition and you must realsie that I regularly see mares of all shapes and sizes
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually - all I KNOW about you is your H&H username - and the fact you're prepared to declare you know FAR more about Irish Draughts than the experienced ID judges who graded these mares! And several of them have been assessed 3 or 4 times by 3/4 different teams (of 3) Inspectors. And - with one or two exceptions - the scoring has been remarkably consistent. I hope anyone reading this doesn't take YOUR word that my mares are cr*p (because they're not!)
[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry, JanetGeorge, I did not mean to offend by my comments (some of which you attributed to Ciss)
[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't offend, Shilasdair, not least because you made it clear you were giving impressions of which ones appealed and why rather than passing jugement as an 'expert'. As I said, I DID post them in response to htobago's question about 'types' of RID rather than for detailed conformation critique. And on that point: the minimum scored for 'type' (out of 25) was 19 on the older mares (can't remember the filly's score but it wouldn't have been MUCH below that.)
I can't remember ALL the individual scores (sheets haven't come back yet) but in past years, scores for type were: mare 2 - 22; mare 3 - 23 (twice) - but 19 this year as Inspectors were somewhat biased towards 'traditional'; and mare 4 - 20 and 22 (only 19 this year - same reason!)
htobago
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I know my mares' faults and strengths - none of them is 'perfect' even as RID but JUDGED as RIDs - rather than as WBs/sport horses - they're all at the higher end of the scale.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is fascinating! There are always endless arguments and heated debates in the Arab-breeding world about 'type vs conformation' - the relative importance of type and conformation in judging, breeding, etc.
To me, putting it simply, good basic confomation is what makes any horse (Arab, ID, WB, whatever) a good, functional, sound, rideable, athletic horse. Wheres type is what makes that horse a good example of its breed - what makes it instantly recognizable as a 'typical' Arab, ID, Trakehner, Hannoverian, etc.
Every 'breed standard' description I have ever read includes the essentials of good basic riding-horse conformation - all the obvious fundamental things such well laid back, sloping shoulder; short cannons; strong back; deep girth; etc., etc.
So surely the principles of good basic riding-horse conformation should, give or take a few minor details and variations, apply to all horses? And one should therefore be able to judge an Arab, ID or whatever according to those principles, as a riding horse, even without expert knowledge of, say, Arab or ID 'type'?
I would not expect most people on here to be experts on Arab type, or able to judge it, but I would expect many of you to be able to assess my horse's conformation - although as in this case, I would expect people's assessments to differ, and for them to disagree!
Even if I were familiar with and knowledgeable about IDs, I would find it very hard to judge the conformation of Janet's horses from these photos, which as she points out are just amateur snapshots, where the angles and so on can give a misleading impression.
As Janet says, all I asked for was some photos to give me an idea of ID 'type'. So now I would like to ask, how much importance is given to 'type' in the grading assessments of ID horses? And what exactly would judges/evaluators be looking for - what are the key characteristics of a 'typey' ID?
I know my mares' faults and strengths - none of them is 'perfect' even as RID but JUDGED as RIDs - rather than as WBs/sport horses - they're all at the higher end of the scale.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is fascinating! There are always endless arguments and heated debates in the Arab-breeding world about 'type vs conformation' - the relative importance of type and conformation in judging, breeding, etc.
To me, putting it simply, good basic confomation is what makes any horse (Arab, ID, WB, whatever) a good, functional, sound, rideable, athletic horse. Wheres type is what makes that horse a good example of its breed - what makes it instantly recognizable as a 'typical' Arab, ID, Trakehner, Hannoverian, etc.
Every 'breed standard' description I have ever read includes the essentials of good basic riding-horse conformation - all the obvious fundamental things such well laid back, sloping shoulder; short cannons; strong back; deep girth; etc., etc.
So surely the principles of good basic riding-horse conformation should, give or take a few minor details and variations, apply to all horses? And one should therefore be able to judge an Arab, ID or whatever according to those principles, as a riding horse, even without expert knowledge of, say, Arab or ID 'type'?
I would not expect most people on here to be experts on Arab type, or able to judge it, but I would expect many of you to be able to assess my horse's conformation - although as in this case, I would expect people's assessments to differ, and for them to disagree!
Even if I were familiar with and knowledgeable about IDs, I would find it very hard to judge the conformation of Janet's horses from these photos, which as she points out are just amateur snapshots, where the angles and so on can give a misleading impression.
As Janet says, all I asked for was some photos to give me an idea of ID 'type'. So now I would like to ask, how much importance is given to 'type' in the grading assessments of ID horses? And what exactly would judges/evaluators be looking for - what are the key characteristics of a 'typey' ID?
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
This is M.J. Fine Art. He's just as nice in the flesh. Edited to add what is interesting about this stallion is that he is 3rd generation IDSH x IDSH.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure that he is. According to the stud website he is by Magnus out of Fire Queen. According to the IDHS database he is by 'unknown' out of Fire Queen (by Snowford Stoker RID out of an unknown mare) Can't find anything to suggest what Magnus was - nothing apparent on All-breed. M J Fine Art was graded onto the Sport Horse Register on the strength of his maternal RID grand-sire.
But he IS a stunning stallion!
This is M.J. Fine Art. He's just as nice in the flesh. Edited to add what is interesting about this stallion is that he is 3rd generation IDSH x IDSH.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure that he is. According to the stud website he is by Magnus out of Fire Queen. According to the IDHS database he is by 'unknown' out of Fire Queen (by Snowford Stoker RID out of an unknown mare) Can't find anything to suggest what Magnus was - nothing apparent on All-breed. M J Fine Art was graded onto the Sport Horse Register on the strength of his maternal RID grand-sire.
But he IS a stunning stallion!
TomReed
Well-Known Member
JanetGeorge is correct regarding the KWPN and Irish bloodlines.
Although most of my mares are registered by the KWPN, various German studbooks, or the AES, I have several ISH mares. These ISH mares have produced foals by my (now deceased) KWPN sire Ekstein that are registered in the KWPN foal book. These ISH mares have also produced foals by my Holsteiner stallion Condios, my SF stallion Desir du Chateau, and some outside German dressage stallions (e.g., Londonderry, Don Laurie, and Rubicell) that are registered in the KWPN's Register A. (As a side note, the ISH mares bred to German dressage sires are ISH in passport only: they have no Irish blood in their pedigrees. Despite the one GP dressage horse mentioned in this thread, using Irish blood in a dressage breeding program is a futile exercise.)
That said, the KWPN has not approved stallions with ID blood because they are concerned about how the modern type they are trying to create will be diminished by ISH or ID blood. I do not believe this is an official policy (meaning I do not believe it is written in a document) but the former head of the KWPN's stallion inspection committtee told me about this some years ago.
Although most of my mares are registered by the KWPN, various German studbooks, or the AES, I have several ISH mares. These ISH mares have produced foals by my (now deceased) KWPN sire Ekstein that are registered in the KWPN foal book. These ISH mares have also produced foals by my Holsteiner stallion Condios, my SF stallion Desir du Chateau, and some outside German dressage stallions (e.g., Londonderry, Don Laurie, and Rubicell) that are registered in the KWPN's Register A. (As a side note, the ISH mares bred to German dressage sires are ISH in passport only: they have no Irish blood in their pedigrees. Despite the one GP dressage horse mentioned in this thread, using Irish blood in a dressage breeding program is a futile exercise.)
That said, the KWPN has not approved stallions with ID blood because they are concerned about how the modern type they are trying to create will be diminished by ISH or ID blood. I do not believe this is an official policy (meaning I do not believe it is written in a document) but the former head of the KWPN's stallion inspection committtee told me about this some years ago.
stolensilver
Well-Known Member
Janet my comment about MJ Fine Art being 3rd generation IDSH comes from talking to his owner. I guess she was using IDSH loosely meaning horses with ID and TB blood in them.
Tom what do you base your comment "using Irish blood in a dressage breeding programme is futile" upon?
Tom what do you base your comment "using Irish blood in a dressage breeding programme is futile" upon?
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As Janet says, all I asked for was some photos to give me an idea of ID 'type'. So now I would like to ask, how much importance is given to 'type' in the grading assessments of ID horses? And what exactly would judges/evaluators be looking for - what are the key characteristics of a 'typey' ID?
[/ QUOTE ]
WELL - there's the question. 'Type & character' are worth 25 points of a maximum of 145. Scoring less than 15 for type is automatic failureFeet, foreleg, hindleg & action are each worth 20, and head & neck, shoulder, barrel & back, and hindquarters are each worth 10.
For grading, the mark required (for a mare) is ABOUT 100+ (depending mainly on age - a filly graded at 2 or 3 might be graded on a lower mark if they think the shortcomings are down to immaturity) but a score of less than 10 for feet, foreleg, or hindleg is possible failure, and 10 or less in two of those is definite failure - even if the total marks come to more than 100.
For a Hornby Premium, a mare must score 125 OR score a minimum of 120 AND have an exceptional foal which the Inspectors can - at their discretion - allow up to 5 marks for.
Type & character is defined in the breed standard as:
"TYPE & CHARACTER
The Irish Draught Horse is an active, short-shinned, powerful horse with substance and quality. It is proud of bearing, deep of girth and strong of back and quarters. Standing over a lot of ground, it has an exceptionally strong and sound constitution. It has an intelligent and gentle nature and is noted for its docility and sense."
Obviously interpretations can vary - the more 'traditional' type is shorter and stockier, the more modern type is taller and somewhat more elegant, while still staying within the broad definition.
As Janet says, all I asked for was some photos to give me an idea of ID 'type'. So now I would like to ask, how much importance is given to 'type' in the grading assessments of ID horses? And what exactly would judges/evaluators be looking for - what are the key characteristics of a 'typey' ID?
[/ QUOTE ]
WELL - there's the question. 'Type & character' are worth 25 points of a maximum of 145. Scoring less than 15 for type is automatic failureFeet, foreleg, hindleg & action are each worth 20, and head & neck, shoulder, barrel & back, and hindquarters are each worth 10.
For grading, the mark required (for a mare) is ABOUT 100+ (depending mainly on age - a filly graded at 2 or 3 might be graded on a lower mark if they think the shortcomings are down to immaturity) but a score of less than 10 for feet, foreleg, or hindleg is possible failure, and 10 or less in two of those is definite failure - even if the total marks come to more than 100.
For a Hornby Premium, a mare must score 125 OR score a minimum of 120 AND have an exceptional foal which the Inspectors can - at their discretion - allow up to 5 marks for.
Type & character is defined in the breed standard as:
"TYPE & CHARACTER
The Irish Draught Horse is an active, short-shinned, powerful horse with substance and quality. It is proud of bearing, deep of girth and strong of back and quarters. Standing over a lot of ground, it has an exceptionally strong and sound constitution. It has an intelligent and gentle nature and is noted for its docility and sense."
Obviously interpretations can vary - the more 'traditional' type is shorter and stockier, the more modern type is taller and somewhat more elegant, while still staying within the broad definition.
amandaco2
Well-Known Member
i love IDs and i think the pics at the start of the tread showing her boys having fun in the school are great and enjoyed them very much!they look really healthy and i think they are very very nice horses!and they do look as if they can shift and certainly have lovely presence.
there was been alot of learning reading through this tread(and no im not sad staying up, im meant to be at work LOL) there is so much i dont know about breeding so its been informative (for the most part)
there are obviously some very knowledgable people on here!
ive got a WB and an ISH(blue rajah lines) and i like both my girls equally.my ISH mare has given me so much,she got me to medium level before injury and although quite fizzy to ride/handle has been a little gem temperment wise
anyway good luck with the gradings,although im SURE you wont need it!
there was been alot of learning reading through this tread(and no im not sad staying up, im meant to be at work LOL) there is so much i dont know about breeding so its been informative (for the most part)
there are obviously some very knowledgable people on here!
ive got a WB and an ISH(blue rajah lines) and i like both my girls equally.my ISH mare has given me so much,she got me to medium level before injury and although quite fizzy to ride/handle has been a little gem temperment wise
anyway good luck with the gradings,although im SURE you wont need it!
Ciss
Well-Known Member
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I'm not sure that he is. According to the stud website he is by Magnus out of Fire Queen. According to the IDHS database he is by 'unknown' out of Fire Queen (by Snowford Stoker RID out of an unknown mare) Can't find anything to suggest what Magnus was - nothing apparent on All-breed.
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Interesting and I'm not surprised you can't find out anything about him as the only Magnus I have come across in the past 20 years or so is an ungraded *Hannoverian* stallion of that name that stood in Cornwall at the Trago stud for a couple of years. I just thought (as anyone with a background in studbooks where stallions tend to come from generations of proven or graded bloodlines would do) that he was a TB stallion that I had never heard of -- or an RID of course in view of his ISH graded status.
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M J Fine Art was graded onto the Sport Horse Register on the strength of his maternal RID grand-sire.
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But also hopefully becuase of his sports horse qualities and his movement
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But he IS a stunning stallion!
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And having seen him at the Burghley Stallion Parade where a special section was organised to emphasise the modern Irish influence on *eventing* breeding I suppose I should have realised which Magnus we were probably talking about in the commentary. Nothing comes from out of the blue you know <ROFL>
I'm not sure that he is. According to the stud website he is by Magnus out of Fire Queen. According to the IDHS database he is by 'unknown' out of Fire Queen (by Snowford Stoker RID out of an unknown mare) Can't find anything to suggest what Magnus was - nothing apparent on All-breed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting and I'm not surprised you can't find out anything about him as the only Magnus I have come across in the past 20 years or so is an ungraded *Hannoverian* stallion of that name that stood in Cornwall at the Trago stud for a couple of years. I just thought (as anyone with a background in studbooks where stallions tend to come from generations of proven or graded bloodlines would do) that he was a TB stallion that I had never heard of -- or an RID of course in view of his ISH graded status.
[ QUOTE ]
M J Fine Art was graded onto the Sport Horse Register on the strength of his maternal RID grand-sire.
[/ QUOTE ]
But also hopefully becuase of his sports horse qualities and his movement
[ QUOTE ]
But he IS a stunning stallion!
[/ QUOTE ]
And having seen him at the Burghley Stallion Parade where a special section was organised to emphasise the modern Irish influence on *eventing* breeding I suppose I should have realised which Magnus we were probably talking about in the commentary. Nothing comes from out of the blue you know <ROFL>
Ciss
Well-Known Member
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Despite the one GP dressage horse mentioned in this thread, using Irish blood in a dressage breeding program is a futile exercise.)
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Listen to the words of someone who has years of experience breeding top class ISHs for a world wide market. If he thinks its a pretty futile exercise then ...
[/ QUOTE ] That said, the KWPN has not approved stallions with ID blood because they are concerned about how the modern type they are trying to create will be diminished by ISH or ID blood. I do not believe this is an official policy (meaning I do not believe it is written in a document) but the former head of the KWPN's stallion inspection committtee told me about this some years ago.
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My arguments completely Tom -- and something they do still seem to keep too, otherwise those mares would presumably be much more welcome.
Despite the one GP dressage horse mentioned in this thread, using Irish blood in a dressage breeding program is a futile exercise.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Listen to the words of someone who has years of experience breeding top class ISHs for a world wide market. If he thinks its a pretty futile exercise then ...
[/ QUOTE ] That said, the KWPN has not approved stallions with ID blood because they are concerned about how the modern type they are trying to create will be diminished by ISH or ID blood. I do not believe this is an official policy (meaning I do not believe it is written in a document) but the former head of the KWPN's stallion inspection committtee told me about this some years ago.
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My arguments completely Tom -- and something they do still seem to keep too, otherwise those mares would presumably be much more welcome.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
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(As a side note, the ISH mares bred to German dressage sires are ISH in passport only: they have no Irish blood in their pedigrees. Despite the one GP dressage horse mentioned in this thread, using Irish blood in a dressage breeding program is a futile exercise.)
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Yep - it's a bit of a bummer - the number of ISH horses these days that AREN'T ISH - they're just Irish born KWPN, Hannoverian, etc. etc. Still, it means that all those English people who USED to go to Ireland to buy 'proper' ISH youngsters are now buying them in England! Let's face it, there are more people who want nice quality all-rounders/hunters/low-level (or high level) eventers, or low level dressage horses that they can also have FUN on than there are people looking for Olympic potential dressage horses.
(As a side note, the ISH mares bred to German dressage sires are ISH in passport only: they have no Irish blood in their pedigrees. Despite the one GP dressage horse mentioned in this thread, using Irish blood in a dressage breeding program is a futile exercise.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep - it's a bit of a bummer - the number of ISH horses these days that AREN'T ISH - they're just Irish born KWPN, Hannoverian, etc. etc. Still, it means that all those English people who USED to go to Ireland to buy 'proper' ISH youngsters are now buying them in England! Let's face it, there are more people who want nice quality all-rounders/hunters/low-level (or high level) eventers, or low level dressage horses that they can also have FUN on than there are people looking for Olympic potential dressage horses.
htobago
Well-Known Member
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Within the purebreds today, there is still a division of 'type' - the 'traditional' type (mares 15-2 to 16 hh with 9 inches or more of bone and built like a brick outhouse!) and the more modern type - a little taller, lighter of bone and more 'refined'. Some Irish Draught breeders think we have already gone too far away from the traditional type.
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I've been to have a little fossick around on the ID website, looking at the details of the breed standard and so on. Then came back to this thread as I remembered you making a comment about changing 'type' in IDs - just managed to find it again (see above).
The breed standard details didn't really tell me very much - most of it was just describing good basic conformation, not really anything distinctive about IDs.
But your comment here is interesting - the shift towards a 'taller, lighter, more refined' type seems to be happening in a number of breeds, not just the ID. Much the same shift has happened in Arab breeding, and from what I can gather, in WB breeding as well.
I don't know enough about any other breeds, but perhaps those who do can tell me if the same shift is happening with, say, native pony breeds and/or among breeders of Show Hunters/Show Hacks/Riding Ponies, etc? I've heard the odd remark here and there suggesting that this is the case - so I'm wondering if this is some kind of universal move towards lighter, finer types?
And if so, what is this about? Why is it happening?
Sorry if I'm being a pain with all these questions!
[ QUOTE ]
Within the purebreds today, there is still a division of 'type' - the 'traditional' type (mares 15-2 to 16 hh with 9 inches or more of bone and built like a brick outhouse!) and the more modern type - a little taller, lighter of bone and more 'refined'. Some Irish Draught breeders think we have already gone too far away from the traditional type.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been to have a little fossick around on the ID website, looking at the details of the breed standard and so on. Then came back to this thread as I remembered you making a comment about changing 'type' in IDs - just managed to find it again (see above).
The breed standard details didn't really tell me very much - most of it was just describing good basic conformation, not really anything distinctive about IDs.
But your comment here is interesting - the shift towards a 'taller, lighter, more refined' type seems to be happening in a number of breeds, not just the ID. Much the same shift has happened in Arab breeding, and from what I can gather, in WB breeding as well.
I don't know enough about any other breeds, but perhaps those who do can tell me if the same shift is happening with, say, native pony breeds and/or among breeders of Show Hunters/Show Hacks/Riding Ponies, etc? I've heard the odd remark here and there suggesting that this is the case - so I'm wondering if this is some kind of universal move towards lighter, finer types?
And if so, what is this about? Why is it happening?
Sorry if I'm being a pain with all these questions!