Talking about stallion grading

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I think you're AMAZINGLY clever if you can judge a horse so comprehensively from one snapshot. Most experienced judges I know would want to look at a horse from several angles before condemning it out of hand (particularly if they were not familiar with the breed standard!)

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And hopefully look at it moving both loose and in hand and in all three paces if possible and look at it loose jumping and examione its pedigree and progeny as well I would think. But you only gave us one photo of each mare (you now say chance snapshots taken by a student) and deliberately did not tell us their ages or scores becuase you wanted us to guess how they did. Now you complain because that was what we did and that we did not take their ages into account. You can't have it all ways Janet <sigh>.
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Sorry but you did raise the point of condition and you must realsie that I regularly see mares of all shapes and sizes

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Actually - all I KNOW about you is your H&H username - and the fact you're prepared to declare you know FAR more about Irish Draughts than the experienced ID judges who graded these mares!

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No. I NEVER assessed them as ID mares because that is not what I assess mares for and I made that quite clear from the start. I used internationally accepted WBFSH-based criteria to show why they are not sports horse type mares -- so in a way I suppose I was assessing them as IDs as well as it seems that a good sports horse mare is most definitely (according to you) not what the ID inspectors want.

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And several of them have been assessed 3 or 4 times by 3/4 different teams (of 3) Inspectors. And - with one or two exceptions - the scoring has been remarkably consistent.

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Why do they need to be looked at more than once? What they call in Europe their fundament (physical structure / phenotype) won't change much after they are 3 years old -- or at least if it does a competent breed judge should be able to predict what the finished mature product would be -- and their genoype certainly won't change, so apart from assessing their work under saddle (not the case with any of these mares I gather) or their progeny (who should be assessed separately anyway) I cannot see the point. And there is even less point if the grading panel changes every year as consistency of approach must surely be the key to the whole method.

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I hope anyone reading this doesn't take YOUR word that my mares are cr*p (because they're not!)

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Never said they were crap, just not sports horses -- but you don't want them to be that anyway so you should have been pleased with my comments as they supported what you want to do in your breeding programme. As far as directing people as to what to think I believe that those who know me on the forum -- and perhaps even more especially those who don't -- will look at what has been illustrated and commented on by all concerned and make up their own minds based on their own breeding goals.

You can ask for no more.
 
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As Janet says, all I asked for was some photos to give me an idea of ID 'type'. So now I would like to ask, how much importance is given to 'type' in the grading assessments of ID horses? And what exactly would judges/evaluators be looking for - what are the key characteristics of a 'typey' ID?

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WELL - there's the question. 'Type & character' are worth 25 points of a maximum of 145. Scoring less than 15 for type is automatic failureFeet, foreleg, hindleg & action are each worth 20, and head & neck, shoulder, barrel & back, and hindquarters are each worth 10.

For grading, the mark required (for a mare) is ABOUT 100+ (depending mainly on age - a filly graded at 2 or 3 might be graded on a lower mark if they think the shortcomings are down to immaturity) but a score of less than 10 for feet, foreleg, or hindleg is possible failure, and 10 or less in two of those is definite failure - even if the total marks come to more than 100.

For a Hornby Premium, a mare must score 125 OR score a minimum of 120 AND have an exceptional foal which the Inspectors can - at their discretion - allow up to 5 marks for.

Type & character is defined in the breed standard as:

"TYPE & CHARACTER
The Irish Draught Horse is an active, short-shinned, powerful horse with substance and quality. It is proud of bearing, deep of girth and strong of back and quarters. Standing over a lot of ground, it has an exceptionally strong and sound constitution. It has an intelligent and gentle nature and is noted for its docility and sense."

Obviously interpretations can vary - the more 'traditional' type is shorter and stockier, the more modern type is taller and somewhat more elegant, while still staying within the broad definition.

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Sorry - just seen this post after I'd already posted my last one!

25 marks out of 145 does not seem to me to give 'type' a huge amount of importance in the judging, especially as it is a combined mark for 'type and character', not just physical type alone, so presumably a horse could pick up marks for gentleness, docility, pride of bearing, etc?

Arabs don't have gradings, but in Arab in-hand showing (at international level) there is a points system similar to this. Horses are scored out of 20 on each of five categories: 1) Type, 2) Head and Neck, 3) Body and Topline, 4) Legs and 5) Movement. Five categories, so 'type' officially accounts for one fifth of the total marks, but as the head and neck are invariably judged on their 'typiness', it's actually more like two fifths. In other words, 'type' is given a very high degree of importance - effectively 40 marks out of 100! Quite a lot of people feel that there is excessive emphasis on type in Arab showing - the ID approach seems more balanced.

(Incidentally, if I may be permitted a tiny boast, Tobago scored 91.3 out of 100 at his last international show, winning a gold medal!)

Which type of ID do you prefer - the old-fashioned stockier type or the more elegant modern type?
 
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Hmmm Ciss so there are excuses for each and every photo of a warmblood GP horse not having the cannon bone angles parallel but on the basis of just one photo you can rate the Irish mare as inferior? I don't agree and don't think you have done yourself any favours with that post.

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Sorry but I did not excuse any of the ones that I did not feel showed correct parallel cannons aprt from those that were obviously doing lateral work (how can showing tension, lacking power and loosing balance be excuses when they are precisely the reasons why this type of behaviour in extension is NOT acceptable)

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IMHO if you are going to use exclusion clauses they should be applied equally to all. The Irish mare has a young rider on her back. How much higher might her score have been if Carl had been riding her? Or Isabelle? 65% at GP with international judges (one was from Germany) is good! It would be in the top 5 at many World Cup qualifiers.

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Given that it wasn't (I believe) at a World Cup, judges mark moreharshly at a World Cup and that sort of score would certainly not make the top 5 at any of the ones I have been to I think you are being a bit generous there. I will say that the horse is showing considerable flexion behind which is a good thing but to be really effective she has to come through more from behind and perhaps -- to giev her the benefit of the doubt (or an exclusion clause to use your term) -- the inability to generate this impulsion is due to 'young rider' error but as you have not been able to say what the quality of her marks were for her walk and canter work this is rather hard to assess.

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Regarding riders choosing bloodlines that are successful are you talking about riders from Europe?

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Yes, after all they are generally the most successful ones in the world.

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The UK dressage riders I know are all totally uninterested in bloodlines, they just look at the horse in front of them. If it is a good horse they are interested. It could be a donkey x zebra but if it moved and had a good brain they would consider buying and training it.

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Actually the structure of the sport at top level (and sorry but that is what we are talking about here) in this country is that it is the owners (not the riders) that generally pick the horses and then get a rider to train and compete them. And I can assure you that the owners do tend to know about bloodlines and are very careful about how they spend their money, buying for the most part horse that they know can do the job. I am talking here about non-riding owners of course that invest in a horse long-term and want it to do as well as possible at as high a level as possible.


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Perhaps this is why the UK has had some "unusual" dressage horses such as Arun Tor with his Cleveland Bay blood or Mr President with his unknown breeding?

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Sorry but two swallows don't make a summer. The one good thing in all this though is that the knowledgeable owners that buy the horses for the top riders to ride are finally realising that they can get good British-bred examples of all the top bloodlines they like without having to go the dreaded 'foreign agent' or auction horse route. I doubt whether such British bred horses would find a buyer if they do not have the necessary bloodlines in their pedigree -- and I think the breeders/sellers of these horses would certainly agree with me.

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I do agree that at the moment warmbloods are the commonest breed that you see in GP dressage. What I don't agree with is that Irish Draught crosses are no hopers in dressage. There are some very talented ID x TBs out there with great ability.

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Sorry but tend to agree with Tom Reed on this one.

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One of my favourites is M.J. Fine Art. He is schooling GP at home and highly rated by Steven Clarke the "O" judge. He's won at Premier leagues in PSG and Inter 1. And his owner and rider is an amateur. He is the first horse she's trained to GP. The best part is that M.J. Fine Art is a stallion. Perhaps one of his offspring will be the one to challenge the warmbloods in international dressage competition?

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And as you will by now have seen from another post it would appear very likely that his sire was actually a Hannoverian and his ISH graded status is due to his mother's back pedigree rather than any close up ID in him or his sire. <ROFL>
 

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.ph...l_font=1&l=

Not much, but a clue. Mastermind produced show hunters, looking at the progeny tab.

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the only Magnus I have come across in the past 20 years or so is an ungraded *Hannoverian* stallion of that name that stood in Cornwall at the Trago stud for a couple of years.

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Rather liked this as the all breed pedigree query gives a choice of over 30, mostly recorded as colts & entires (some geldings), all sufficiently well known & well valued to someone to be noted down... And there will be plenty of other Magnuses, doubtless, who will be remembered but never recorded anywhere..... And this is typical of horse breeding here as well as in Ireland; I mean, I could trace my old pony's pedigree back to the winner of the 1911 Derby; but I've nothing at all on paper. Its well worth remembering that "unknown" means "unknown NOW"; not necessarily unplanned or unvalued or unknown THEN.

A bit like Wade's boat, in fact.

(Excuse me being a bit of an anorak at 2.30 in the morning; I'm the taxi service tonight for daughter & friends out clubbing, & its this or the ironing, while I stay awake & wait for the call. The ironing loses every time).
 
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And as you will by now have seen from another post it would appear very likely that his sire was actually a Hannoverian and his ISH graded status is due to his mother's back pedigree rather than any close up ID in him or his sire.

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???
Perhaps you should look at the link to this horse previously given; the people standing him previously stood his sire and before that, his grandsire, whom they seem to have bought as a weanling. They clearly state the breeding to be TB /ID on both sides of the pedigree.
I would suggest that after 30 years in the business they KNOW how their own horses are bred; it seems a bit of a cheek to foist your "ungraded Hannoverian" on them, just because you personally have never heard of THIS Magnus ( or, presumably, the other 30)....
 
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And if so, what is this about? Why is it happening?


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Can't comment on other breeds but in the ID it's being driven by the Irish Horse Board. A lot of IB breeders - both in Ireland, the UK AND the USA are rather unhappy about it too. But the IHB calls the shots with the ID in Ireland, and the Irish Inspectors have final say in both stallion and mare grading in all the 'daughter' societies. The in-fighting in the Irish Draught Horse Society in Ireland has resulted in High Court actions, and attempted coup over attempted coup - and I don't think anyone knows who is actually 'in control' anymore!
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25 marks out of 145 does not seem to me to give 'type' a huge amount of importance in the judging, especially as it is a combined mark for 'type and character', not just physical type alone, so presumably a horse could pick up marks for gentleness, docility, pride of bearing, etc?

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Which type of ID do you prefer - the old-fashioned stockier type or the more elegant modern type?

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Yep - it's the overall 'impression' of the horse - and of course the Inspectors' 'preference' can influence their marking in some of the other sections as well, I think. For example, in the mark for 'foreleg' - some inspectors might mark a point or two lower if bone is on the light side - even if the foreleg is very correct and be more generous to a horse with more bone, even if it was not quite as correct. (ALthough of course serious faults are marked down hard and several defects are listed which are stomped on hard.

I don't have a strong preference between the 'types' - I like something in the middle. Some of the very traditional mares (and stallions) are a bit coarse in head and neck - and some of the more modern types just don't have enough depth.

Of the mares shown, mare 2 is my favourite ID 'type' - although I'd like a bit more of mare 4's head and neck! 1 and 4 have rather long legs in relation to overall height. But I love 4 - we only rode her for a short time before she went in foal but she was awesome!
 
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Of the mares shown, mare 2 is my favourite ID 'type' - although I'd like a bit more of mare 4's head and neck! 1 and 4 have rather long legs in relation to overall height. But I love 4 - we only rode her for a short time before she went in foal but she was awesome!

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I'm glad we seem to have the same sort of eye then!
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And if so, what is this about? Why is it happening?


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Can't comment on other breeds but in the ID it's being driven by the Irish Horse Board. A lot of IB breeders - both in Ireland, the UK AND the USA are rather unhappy about it too. But the IHB calls the shots with the ID in Ireland, and the Irish Inspectors have final say in both stallion and mare grading in all the 'daughter' societies. The in-fighting in the Irish Draught Horse Society in Ireland has resulted in High Court actions, and attempted coup over attempted coup - and I don't think anyone knows who is actually 'in control' anymore!
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This sounds like a complete recipe for disaster to me, no wonder all you ID enthusiasts are so touchy about anyone commenting on your horses (but you do still do it -- more than most other breeders I feel) so perhaps you are so worried about consistency in what your garders mark that you have to search for external support/denial of their opinions.

I have to say I still don't understand why mares have to be graded repeatedly -- unless it is becuase people keep doing it until the panel in a certain year agrees with what they themselves think of their stock.

What a mess -- and especially for a breed which in its pure-bred form has such a limited gene pool that it is almost Rare breed category.

BTW, who selects the grading panel(s)? Is it done annually by public or postal vote, is it done by a judges sub-committee or the overall bree council or is it muggins turn (Charlie hasn;t done it for a bit let him have the perks of travelling round and meeting people this year)
 
Whoa Ciss things are getting silly now aren't they? It is abundantly clear that you don't like Irish Draughts. That's your choice. But to foist an "ungraded Hannovarian" onto Fine Art just because you wanted to claim that "quality has to come from somewhere" is crazy! I've been to Fine Art's home, talked at length to his owners. He is a mix of ID and TB. No warmblood anywhere in sight.

As I mentioned before Steven Clarke, the Olympic dressage judge, loves this horse. He's taught the owner on Fine Art (Finn) for years and always insists on riding him at some stage during the lesson because he's so nice to ride and so talented. There are photos of Steven on Finn on the website. I'm very happy to listen to an Olympic judge when it comes to opinion about dressage talent and trainability!

Why did you feel the need to question Fine Art's heritage? Why can you not accept that Irish horses can excel in dressage? It is insulting to the stallion owner (hope they don't read this thread) and makes you look as if you have a one track mind: if it isn't warmblood it's no good.

I'm still hoping Tom will reply to explain his assertation that trying to breed dressage horses with Irish blood "is futile". I'm guessing he's tried mixing IDSH and dressage warmblood and hasn't liked the outcome. But he does like mixing IDSH with jumping warmblood to get showjumpers and is very successful at it. Yet many Irish breeders have had no luck with that combination for jumping and are now actively avoiding those crosses. I am wondering if Tom has not tried all that many Irish warmblood dressage breedings and has not found the right combination yet?

My experience with dressage, and I'm doing Advanced now, is that at Novice level you find all sorts of horses from all sorts of breeds. As you move up to Medium there seem to be more warmbloods but as you move on to Advanced the number of Irish horses soars again. Chatting to their riders they often say that the Irish horse has better trainability and soundness than the warmbloods they have had. This has been my experience too.

If we work out the statistics there are thousands of Hannovarians born each year. Same with KWPN. Both those countries are interested in dressage giving those horses a good chance of receiving good dressage training. The Irish Draught is a rare breed. Each year there are a couple of hundred sports horse foals born. People still think of Irish horses as all rounders and jumpers so they are less likely to end up receiving dressage training yet despite this there are significant numbers reaching Advanced dressage and beyond. Statistically there may not be a big difference (% wise) between the success rate of Hannovarians reaching Advanced and Irish horses doing the same. Right now there are no IDSH at World Cup level but I would not be at all surprised if this changed in the future especially as the judges are being asked to look for more purity in the paces so flash up front is no longer getting the marks it used to. IDSH do have very good basic paces with ability to extend and collect. IMHO the only reason they aren't at the top of the sport of dressage yet is because their potential for dressage is only just being realised.
 
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And as you will by now have seen from another post it would appear very likely that his sire was actually a Hannoverian and his ISH graded status is due to his mother's back pedigree rather than any close up ID in him or his sire.

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???
Perhaps you should look at the link to this horse previously given; the people standing him previously stood his sire and before that, his grandsire, whom they seem to have bought as a weanling. They clearly state the breeding to be TB /ID on both sides of the pedigree.

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Odd that, as having looked up his pedigree on both the web page I found for it via google and using the old BHD book Magnus II's sire Mastermind was actually an Anglo Arab if the descriptor X was being used correctly of course.

The BHD entry gives no proven dam's pedigree -- presumably becuase of their rather stricter criteria for accepting verfified breeding data than the ISH in GB, but even bearing that in mind, yes I did over look that link (I was having difficulty getting to sleep due to the fact that my rotary cuff and disassociatied bone chip obtained whilst evaluating 6 weeks ago does make it rather difficult to lie down conformtably) but we are all human and unlike some others on this list I do still admit to being a constant learner even after 30 years of breeding / grading and judging. Anyone who thinks they know everything or is closed to listening to others arguments (even if they do not finally accept them) is not likely to progress at all however grand and exclusive their breeding aims are.

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I would suggest that after 30 years in the business they KNOW how their own horses are bred; it seems a bit of a cheek to foist your "ungraded Hannoverian" on them, just because you personally have never heard of THIS Magnus ( or, presumably, the other 30)....

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I did check the very unreliable souce of the del Mar site and came up with the same info you did but as most were horses with no breeding -- or very confusing entries and no progeny -- I did not think it worth bothering the list with as it was obviously a total dead end. Via NED I also found at least 40 with a sire including Magnus in their names but almost all were Fjords so obviously not much relevance there either. <ROFL>

The inadvertent slip of language you made when descibing what I did as ' foist an ungraded Hannoverian stallion' on to MJ Fine Art's breeding programme is I am afraid a rather more worrying indication of your belief that it must be the ID part of the pedigree that makes him such a good dressage horse. Sorry but in the real world of international dressage results it is the warmblood breeds that dominate (Hann, KWPN and Old mostly), not the ID (which has hardly any representatives in the top 1000 international horses and no breed listing even for ISH's. Obviously ISHs are currently top of the Eventing list but here the improvement in performance can be directly dated to the infusion of good moving warmbloods (especially Cavalier Royale, Furisto and Henks' stallions when he was in Ireland) which gives them just the positive start they need to lead from the first day, and their showjumping ranking is now rising again (thanks again not inconsiderably to the same infusion of wb blood) so why not celebrate success in eventing and showjumping and not go chasing rainbows by trying to claim excellence in dressage breeding too?

As always breeds to your strengths, not your weaknesses.
 
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I think you're AMAZINGLY clever if you can judge a horse so comprehensively from one snapshot.

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But that was what you were offering us here, with the comment about what super moving horses they were. In those photos, I couldn't see great or even above average movement.

The challenge set out by you Janet, was "who says ID's can't move?" Based on those photos, probably most people who have an idea of what movement is, would say "me!".

I rather feel that you should have put this in the "breeders chuff chart".
 
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Tom what do you base your comment "using Irish blood in a dressage breeding programme is futile" upon?

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First of all, by a "dressage breeding programme" please allow me to be explicit about my assumption that the goal of such a programme is to breed dressage horses that can compete successfully at international level. That said, any sporthorse (of any breed or registry) should be able to compete at preliminary to novice to elementary levels.

I base my statement on knowing Irish horses and having seen hundreds of Irish mares. Irish breeders and the Irish Horse Board do not select breeding stock on the basis of movement, gaits, and rideability.

Horses like the aforementioned ISH that is competing in dressage lack the elasticity that we see in the average warmblood.
 
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Yep - it's a bit of a bummer - the number of ISH horses these days that AREN'T ISH - they're just Irish born KWPN, Hannoverian, etc. etc. Still, it means that all those English people who USED to go to Ireland to buy 'proper' ISH youngsters are now buying them in England! Let's face it, there are more people who want nice quality all-rounders/hunters/low-level (or high level) eventers, or low level dressage horses that they can also have FUN on than there are people looking for Olympic potential dressage horses.
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That is true, JanetGeorge -- the market for amateur horses is bigger than the market for top-level competition horses and prospects -- but I do not think it is a "bummer" that some Irish breeders are using non-Irish bloodlines. If people want to breed for the amateur market, go ahead.
 
"'m still hoping Tom will reply to explain his assertation that trying to breed dressage horses with Irish blood "is futile". I'm guessing he's tried mixing IDSH and dressage warmblood and hasn't liked the outcome. But he does like mixing IDSH with jumping warmblood to get showjumpers and is very successful at it. Yet many Irish breeders have had no luck with that combination for jumping and are now actively avoiding those crosses. I am wondering if Tom has not tried all that many Irish warmblood dressage breedings and has not found the right combination yet?"

Stolensilver, please see my post above.

No, I have never tried breeding a dressage horse using a sire or dam with traditional Irish bloodlines. And I do not see myself ever trying to do so as I have only one lifetime.

Even if a particular traditional Irish stallion or mare had exceptional movement, gaits, and rideability -- and by "exceptional" I mean good enough to even consider using in a dressage breeding programme -- it is much more likely that that particular sire or dam is a "freak" and will not pass on this exceptional movement and gaits to his or her progeny. Why? Because the genes that produced those gaits and movement are not consolidated in the sire's sireline and mareline or in the dam's sireline and damline.

That said, I have never seen a traditionally-bred Irish stallion or mare that I would consider using in a dressage breeding programme. I have never seen one that has "exceptional" movemement and gaits. Even if they have three very good gaits (which is very rarely seen) they lack elasticity.

Regarding crossing traditional ISH mares with warmblood sires for showjumping breeding, in my mare herd I have only three traditional ISH mares (two by Cruising and one by Boherdeal Clover) and that is enough for me. If it were not for the warmblood x ISH cross the Irish studbook would not be in 11th place, its current position, but even lower.

A major problem in Ireland is the particular warmblood stallions many breeders use; i.e., stallions that could not get approved on the continent, or on on the KWPN watch list, or are headed for the KWPN watch list, and are shipped over to Ireland. Many have been here on free leases.

ID and ISH horses are not bred for dressage; it is not a breeding goal of the Irish studbook or Irish breeders. If one or two happen to make it in the international sport it is a happy accident. In the current WBFSH ranking of international dressage horses there is one (1) Irish horse: Komplete Kaos (Kingsway Diamond x Imperial Seal). This gelding, ranked 307 out of 500 horses in the ranking, is competing in New Zealand, hardly a hotbed for international dressage!
 
I guess we are going to have to disagree on the potential for Irish horses in dressage Tom. Claggan Roxy Music won the Irish National GP title. She was doing dressage as her second career after being a show hunter and was ridden by a young rider. She beat every warmblood in those championships. There was another Irish Draught Sports horse a few years ago, bay gelding, ridden by a New Zealander who did international GP. He regularly got 10s for his piaffe and passage. I wish I could remember his name! Edited to add I was posting at the same time as Tom. The one I am thinking about is not Komplete Kaos. The horse I cannot remember competed in Europe and retired a few years ago.

These Irish horses are making it to national and international GP dressage despite it being a discipline that they are not bred for or selected for. Doesn't that suggest that within the Irish Draught Sports Horse there are some very able dressage horses?

I think one of the cleverest things the majority of European stud books did was to have an open doors policy. None of this purebred stuff or half bred this and quarter bred that. If a horse was good enough to grade into the studbook it became a horse of that studbook. I think that is what the IHB is now doing with a view to breeding the best competition horses they can. Can't see that what they are doing is any different from what the Hanovarian, KWPN, Belgian etc etc stud books have been doing for many decades. I think it is what the SHB(GB) should be doing with less of an emphasis on show hunters and thoroughbreds. Another edit! Seems as if the IHB is less strict about the stallions it allows breeders to use. The basic idea of accepting good horses from most breeds is a sound one (and a European one) as long as you maintain a high standard for entry to the studbook.

I do wonder if it will become more common to see IDSHs being stood as stallions and bred to IDSH mares? Although it is frequently said that the second cross is less reliable, many of the famous RID stallions from 20-30 years ago had TB blood in them and their offspring turned out just fine.

Doesn't this whole discussion boil down to a good horse being a good horse no matter what breed or studbook they belong to? That Irish Draught sports horses have competed at international eventing, showjumping and dressage while half of the cross, the Irish Draught, is a rare/endangered breed speaks volumes about how often ID x TB produces a good quality athletes.
 
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This sounds like a complete recipe for disaster to me, no wonder all you ID enthusiasts are so touchy about anyone commenting on your horses (but you do still do it -- more than most other breeders I feel) so perhaps you are so worried about consistency in what your garders mark that you have to search for external support/denial of their opinions.

I have to say I still don't understand why mares have to be graded repeatedly -- unless it is becuase people keep doing it until the panel in a certain year agrees with what they themselves think of their stock.

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I THOUGHT I'd explained what Hornby's were - it's not grading as such (just marked exactly the same) - it's partly an incentive scheme to encourage RID mare owners to breed pure - and it's partly to identify outstanding mares.

A mare is graded - at anything from 2 years of age. WHEN she has a pure-bred foal at foot by an RID stallion she can be re-presented for inspection and if she scores highly enough she gets a Hornby Premium (nice rossie and £100). She can win 3 Hornby Premiums - 3 different years - 3 different judging panels - and then she is titled a Hornby Select mare (very nice rossie, no extra money, but her pure-bred foals are then registered free for life) - all the Hornby Select mares are listed in the Year Book. This is a UK scheme. Ireland has a similar scheme 'Quality Premium' but I'm not sure of the details. (And I'm not 'touchy' about people commenting on my stock - I'd just prefer they weren't slated on a public forum on the basis of amateur snapshots which were only put up to demonstrate 'type'.)

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BTW, who selects the grading panel(s)? Is it done annually by public or postal vote, is it done by a judges sub-committee or the overall bree council or is it muggins turn (Charlie hasn;t done it for a bit let him have the perks of travelling round and meeting people this year)

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The Judges's panel is selected at assessment days where potential judges must satisfy senior judges that they know what they're doing - either for the conformation panel, or the ride panel, or both.
 
This thread has been truely fascinating!

I'd just like to say that an internationally reknowned Dressage rider/trainer/judge/breeder, that I used to work for, once told me that any horse, of sound confortmation, temperament and athleticism, should be able to perform at PSG - how well they'd do is another matter, but they should, with correct schooling be capable of the movements.

Also, all this talk of the sharpness of WB's - why are they then often refered to as 'dumb bloods'? TBF I've only known a few that meet this description...

That said, I've known a fair few IDx's and ISH's who are more than a little sharp and not for the novice rider/owner... In fact as Shil's pointed out, I've had far more near death experiences with this breed/type than any others (bar TB's, but then I've worked with far more TB's, so rule of numbers there I should think).
 
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The inadvertent slip of language you made when descibing what I did as ' foist an ungraded Hannoverian stallion' on to MJ Fine Art's breeding programme is I am afraid a rather more worrying indication of your belief that it must be the ID part of the pedigree that makes him such a good dressage horse.

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Why is that worrying? Whatever went into this horses' pedigree made him a good dressage horse; and THAT was ID and TB. That's all there is too it.

Now you are worrying me, Ciss; I've always found your posts enlightening & fair-minded across a range of breeds and types; yet you clearly see the quality in this stallion and yet seem to be saying that as he's good, he can't be ID bred.

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Obviously ISHs are currently top of the Eventing list but here the improvement in performance can be directly dated to the infusion of good moving warmbloods (especially Cavalier Royale, Furisto and Henks' stallions when he was in Ireland)

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Improvement? Irish horses have always been right up there, both here and in Ireland.

Its a difficult one for anybody with a closed studbook or a worthwhile and established product; change it and you might gain- but you will also lose what you've got. I don't think that's just true for Irish Draughts; I suspect its true for Trakhener breeders, TB breeders, those who champion the Iberian breeds; native pony breeders. They have all had to cope with this & come to a decision or a compromise. But when someone does manage to both have their cake & eat it in other breeds - the producers of Stravinsky for example- you have no difficulty giving them credit- so why not admit that it can happen in this case too?

Despite the incomplete information on the breeding websites (and I think sometimes wrong information- there is some confusion with the Gamekeeper who was a son of Welton Gameful, I think) the horses pedigree is detailed by the people who know it best on the link previously given. Why is there a problem with this?
 
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Doesn't this whole discussion boil down to a good horse being a good horse no matter what breed or studbook they belong to?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, absolutely, so now we start the discussion about the stud books which win the medals more often than the others. Because it is those studbooks who have more horses being those "good horses" you're talking about.

the "only one lifetime" statement hits the nail on the head. I'm sure it's very admirable and honorable to attempt to reintroduce the ID in it's pure form, back in to modern sport horse breeding.
 
Statistics of the Sports Horse Worldwide
#3525180 - 18/09/2008 10:56

So that'll be KWPN then, since nothing else seems to come anywhere close.

So ditch your stocks of semen, Ken, you're out of the running......
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X means 10. There are lots of horses whose name has been Magnus, something we all agree on.

If you see XX after a horses name that generally denotes TB OX means Arab, I think that is what Ciss was referring to. I think it needs to be accepted that even studs like KEC state that the continetal WB's are needed & they use them in their breeding programme. There are good points in all the breeds along with the weakness's. Celia commented on the mare being mascaline, it has to be said in that photo, the mare does in deed resemble a stallion. I dont think C is blinded to other breeds. She has never to my knowledge looked down her nose at mine & they have until recently been ISH & PBA's. A good horse is a good horse no matter what parents it has. A great horse is one that can do & pass it on.
 
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The BHD entry gives no proven dam's pedigree -- presumably becuase of their rather stricter criteria for accepting verfified breeding data than the ISH in GB,


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What nonsense - the IDHS(GB) has VERY strict criteria for accepting breeding information (which is why there are a number of 'irish sport horse' stallions around that are NOT graded with IDHS onto the Sport Horse Register.

The inadvertent slip of language you made when descibing what I did as ' foist an ungraded Hannoverian stallion' on to MJ Fine Art's breeding programme is I am afraid a rather more worrying indication of your belief that it must be the ID part of the pedigree that makes him such a good dressage horse. Sorry but in the real world of international dressage results it is the warmblood breeds that dominate (Hann, KWPN and Old mostly), not the ID

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As Fine Art is at LEAST a quarter RID and has no Warmblood breeding, that seems a reasonable supposition to me. No one (or at least not me
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) is claiming that the RID can/should/does play a role in breeding top international dressage horses - that would just be plain silly. Can I remind you that in the original post - which was about Irish Draughts, not about breeding dressage horses, I said: "Who said Irish Draughts can't MOVE?" I did NOT say: "Who said IDs can't move as well as Warmbloods?" or "Who said IDs don't move well enough to be Olympic-class dressage horses?"

If I was hoping to breed top class dressage horses I would NOT start with RID's - although I have seen some 'proper' Irish sport horse mares who would give a good start if put to a big moving Warmblood stallion! But NO RID is going to match the BIG movement of a good Warmblood (although some RIDs MIGHT find piaffe easier than some BIG moving Warmbloods - and it doesn't fry their brains to be collected that much!)

I would certainly like to take a home-bred stallion forward to - say - PSG; if just to convince the keen Amateur rider who will never get beyond Medium that they may be happier and more successful on a horse they can keep inside the arena - and also take hunting, do a bit of showjumping on, etc. etc.

But BIG movement is only one aspect of a dressage horse. It also needs to be able to collect, and have elevation, and have a brain that doesn't lose it under pressure - at whatever level! That temperament bit is where a lot of Warmbloods do fail (and why Anky needs rollkur!) If the piaffe 'explodes' at a crucial moment, the BIG movement may have been in vain.
 
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That is true, JanetGeorge -- the market for amateur horses is bigger than the market for top-level competition horses and prospects -- but I do not think it is a "bummer" that some Irish breeders are using non-Irish bloodlines. If people want to breed for the amateur market, go ahead.

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That comment WAS made somewhat tongue in cheek, Tom (hence the
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) I have no problem with the Irish breeders using whatever they want (or what the IHB wants - they're the ones who control the money.)

Where the pure-bred Irish Draught is concerned (and that was where this thread started), I think the IHB's influence on the breed has been detrimental. Chasing 'performance' to the detriment of breed 'type' has resulted in: 1) a narrowing of bloodlines available - with some 80% of the mare herd being KoD, PoS, or CH bloodlines, and 2) a loss of bone. And the IHB's refusal to recognise UK stallions (despite the fact that THEIR inspectors have final say in their grading) unless the owners (and horses) jump through hoops deprives Irish breeders of good outcross stallions.

Irish Draughts SHOULDN'T be looked at as 2nd rate Sport Horses. They are a distinct and seperate breed with their own strengths (and weaknesses.) Improving the BREED - as per the breed standard - should be first priority (but it doesn't seem to be!)
 
I understand now; thanks.

Regarding breeding RIDs or IDs I have no insights to offer except why should "breed type" be an end in itself, the primary breeding goal?

I believe this is precisely the mistake the Trakehner Verband and many of its members made some years ago. They ended up producing nice looking horses that possesed the "Trakehner-type" but on average over time they lost a lot of athleticism. So now Trakenhers are mostly used in breeding to (1) produce Trakehner-type" Trakehners for aficionados and (2) to a much lesser extent to "refine" a couple of other breeds (especially Hanoverian). But they are not used by other studbooks for their potential contributions with respect to athletic abilities. And since the Trakehner studbook is closed except for selected TB/AA/ShA mares and stallions this studbook has some real problems trying to figure out how to return to producing horses for sport and not beauty contests.

If the RID/ID breeders go the way you are suggesting they will encounter similar problems, I believe.
 
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Regarding breeding RIDs or IDs I have no insights to offer except why should "breed type" be an end in itself, the primary breeding goal?



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Ah - you misunderstand. Breed 'type' should never be the primary breeding goal! And type is already quite variable. What SHOULD be the priority is improving movement and conformation, while retaining bone and the best characteristics of the breed (brain, jumping ability, in particular.)

There is still scope to bring in outside blood - in the UK at least - through the female line. A mare who has 3 RID grandparents and the 4th either TB or native (eg Connemara) can be graded AID. And the daughters of AID mares by an RID can be graded RID (if good enough.) My Northwood Rose is out of an AID mare - and is herself a Hornby Select mare. She has a stallion son standing in the USA, and two good graded daughters in the UK.
 
I have to object to Tom's comments on Trakehners. I think you'll find for such a small stud book compared to the likes of the might Hanoverians etc, that the Trakehners are becoming increasingly important as a source of top class modern dressage prospects. The verband have made a huge effort to retain type but also improve athleticism and movement in recent years, and the fact that the 5yo Bundeschampion Imperio is the horse every one is talking about, is not a fluke!

Then add in other Trakehners who qualified and scored well - Kasimir for example, or Le Rouge, winner of one of the consolation finals, and 5th or 6th in the main 6yo final. And thats ignoring the influence of the likes of the great Consul, who as the dam sire of Don Frederico, appeared in an awful lot of pedigrees of the competiors. And thats ignoring the eventing competitors.
 
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BTW, who selects the grading panel(s)? Is it done annually by public or postal vote, is it done by a judges sub-committee or the overall bree council or is it muggins turn (Charlie hasn;t done it for a bit let him have the perks of travelling round and meeting people this year)

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The Judges's panel is selected at assessment days where potential judges must satisfy senior judges that they know what they're doing - either for the conformation panel, or the ride panel, or both.

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Sorry you misunderstood my question. It was not 'How do people get on the panel?' but 'Who selects what person should go where to grade and when?'

Just interested as it seems such a political hot potatoe with the conflicting views on type.
 
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X means 10. There are lots of horses whose name has been Magnus, something we all agree on.

If you see XX after a horses name that generally denotes TB OX means Arab, I think that is what Ciss was referring to. I think it needs to be accepted that even studs like KEC state that the continetal WB's are needed & they use them in their breeding programme. There are good points in all the breeds along with the weakness's. Celia commented on the mare being mascaline, it has to be said in that photo, the mare does in deed resemble a stallion. I dont think C is blinded to other breeds. She has never to my knowledge looked down her nose at mine & they have until recently been ISH & PBA's. A good horse is a good horse no matter what parents it has. A great horse is one that can do & pass it on.

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Thank you so much for theat vote of confidence, I was begiing to think I was now public enemy no 1:-(.

Thank you also for explaining what I meant by X. I sometimes forget that people are not always conversant with the international meaning of XX, X and OX even though they are explained in almost all wb studbook catalogues and those for the bD YH&B champs and the Futurity final.
 
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