Teaching - what everyone wants

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Blythe Spirit

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I have been reading the threads about teaching and what methods are taught by various people. I have been thinking about this a lot the last year as I have been searching about for good instruction myself with some success and some not. I have had this conversation with several very experienced horse people. Mostly they tend to say that the trend is for quick fix teaching because people don't want to put the hard graft in to learn well - they don't want endless lunge lessons they want to be jumping and cantering. these are some examples I have heard/seen in the last year of odd attitudes at RS etc
1. saw one instructor decide to teach half pass and praise class for 'doing a good half pass' when at best it was a wonky leg yield - why? because that was what pupils wanted to achieve so they were told they had.
2. saw one trekking center advise a rider to list themselves as 'experienced' because they had done a two hour hack - their experience level was not downgraded when it became apparent they couldn't hold the reins the right way up. but hapless clients genuinely thought they were experienced as thats what they were told.
3. had 'school master' lessons that were all about 'oh wow I did a flying change' with no regard for my ability or otherwise to do anything half decently. I asked why she was not pickier about my riding to be told 'its OKish and that's not what people want they just want to try out the higher level movements'
4. been told on a jumping lesson "I'd be sacked if I told our BHS exam students this but let me give you a tip - keep your lower leg forward a bit in the approach to a jump so you have a secure seat"
5. been told by instructors that my horse was capable of things she clearly was not 'oh she'll be doing passage in a few months if you have a weekly lesson with me' -- Ummm I don't think so she's working prelim / novice ATM.

When I have questioned these things the answers almost all come down to instructors or RS's feeling they need to Lie or provide unrealistically positive feedback to keep the custom of the client who just wants a quick fix ....



so where does the problem Lie?
 
I work and teach at riding school, and it is true that people just want to jump higher/ do harder movements etc. It is not necessarily the riding instructors fault, but it takes a long time to learn to ride properly and you hit many plateaus along the way. Many people will see this as lacking progress and go elsewhere. Everything is instant these days.
Riding schools in general are struggling at the moment- most people have a few lessons and buy their own horse!
 
There is I think an issue with some riders who go and have a lesson rather than go to someone regularily with a plan of what they want to achieve over the medium to long term .
I do think there can be an issue when people go to lots of different trainers but don't have one person giving the overview of their progress over a longer time frame .
If trainers teach a lot of people who don't come regularity to them and can see how it happens .
It's not fair to blame the trainers the riders have to learn how to learn as well it's a two way street .
Some riders have lessons for entertainment and some are working towards long term goals some trainers are very skilled at entertaining the former .
 
I think the problem kind of lies with both rider and teacher but in my opinion the teacher should find out what kind of student they have, one who wants to put the work in and get it right and those that want supervised jumping/cantering time (and obviously everything in between) and teach accordingly (or not teach if you don't suit them).

I get my enjoyment out of getting things right and getting ym horse flowing, I am happy to spend a whole lesson in walk if that is what it takes and all my instructors know that. My regular instructor has a student that comes and basically wants supervised jumping with a few tips and wrinkles, theya re both happy with the arrangement and it doesn't hurt anyone :)

Interesting topic though (cheering me up while I am sat at home with leg newly in pot!)
 
Where’s the problem
It’s a hobby and like any pastime people want different things.
Some want relaxation, adventure, learning, thrills, friends etc. There’s something for everyone.
If one method isn’t working people inevitably seek another. In my youth (when dinosaurs ruled the world) I wanted thrills and would bomb about kicking and pulling. The ponies forgave and got on with it and I didn’t want a lecture on my core and alignment. Now I do want refinement and understanding and learning so I seek that out. I don’t see the problem.
It’s horses they’re wonderful and diverse and there’s something for everyone, just as the instruction is wonderfully diverse. Don’t bemoan utilitarian instruction at trekking yards as let’s be honest most people just want to experience a nice view from horseback. Don’t bemoan riding schools, lets be honest the kids want to have fun and the adults have to unfortunately learn effective riding on less than sensitive horses. Don’t bemoan instruction because if it’s not for you find another instructor. Listen to your horse. Listen to your gut. You’ll know if either of you aren’t happy. But there’s a time and place for kick and pull and a time and place learning that it’s about controlling yourself first before that half-halt will go through the horse. I don’t think it’s the fault of instructor as afterall they have to cater to what the majority of clients want i.e to have a nice time not wrestle with the finer points of their own self control. Some great teachers can adapt and provide for both. But great teachers are rare gems in riding as in anything else. We can all remember that one good teacher that gave us the love of a topic in school. But how many awful teachers did you have killing poetry for you or making you hate math. Same in horses. It’s just another topic like math or language, it’s nothing special ;-)
 
One RS I use to teach at the owner (who not horsey unless you conclude she had a pony when she was younger) would over-ride me the senior weekend instructor on what the children could do. I had one girl who wanted to just jump higher and higher but I wouldn't let her jump as she could barely keep her balance in canter and used the reins for balance but no this wasn't what the paying customer wanted so I never taught her again a trainee instructor did and she had a nasty fall jumping.

Also same RS I did an assessment for a hack and the gentleman wanted to go fast but on the assessment he could barely trot. I told the yard owner this but again paying customer gets what they want. Luckily I wasn't escorting hack only did assessment but did inform the escorting rider of my views and they didn't go fast as he nearly fell of in trot so only walked.

I've always respected what a trainer has said to me even at a young age as that's what I pay them for. Even now I've taken steps back in my riding lessons to improve my confidence
 
Part of the problem is also to do with the number of different styles of teaching. When I learned to ski many decades ago there was one way to do it, and in spite of having had lessons in different resorts and countries over the years, I've never been told anything which conflicted with what I had been taught before. Yes, fashions change slightly over time, and different instructors have different ways of getting the message across, but essentially you are learning in a consistent way. With riding however, every instructor seems to have a different way of doing things and different approaches to getting the best out of the same horse. I've been taught something in one lesson and then been shouted at for doing it in the next lesson, with a different instructor.

So it's actually difficult, as an inexperienced pupil (and after 15 years of riding I still count myself as inexperienced in comparison with a professional), to know what a new instructor's attitude is and why they are asking you to do different moves. Is it because the horse is stiff and needs to be loosened up? Or is it because you are wonky and need to straighten? Or because they think you want to do more advanced moves? Or because they are bored and want a laugh? Or even because they haven't a clue what you did last week? I always try to have the same instructor now, because that way I can have those conversations about what I want to work on and it's also easier to see if I am progressing or not. But it's not always possible, and people who don't know probably wouldn't realise what a difference it makse to have the same person each week.
 
Oh I didn't mean my post to be a rant against RS - far from it. They have a very tough job to do and i both learned at a RS or two or three years ago but also worked for several over the years too. So I totally understand the challenges but I don't think in the time I taught I ever lied to anyone out right about their capabilities or progress and I am sure good instructors still don't and I know there are plenty of good instructors. But its challenging giving people a sense of progress teaching them something very complex just once a week or so.
 
Goldenstar said:
There is I think an issue with some riders who go and have a lesson rather than go to someone regularily with a plan of what they want to achieve over the medium to long term .
I do think there can be an issue when people go to lots of different trainers but don't have one person giving the overview of their progress over a longer time frame .
If trainers teach a lot of people who don't come regularity to them and can see how it happens .
It's not fair to blame the trainers the riders have to learn how to learn as well it's a two way street .
Some riders have lessons for entertainment and some are working towards long term goals some trainers are very skilled at entertaining the former .
Click to expand...

Very true indeed. :) but again often made hard by the realities of the commercial world. I have recently been having jumping lessons at a large RS and have had 4 lessons and 4 different instructors (having to re-explain what I was trying to achieve each time with varying degrees of sucess)
 
Personally I prefer teachers who tell me the truth, I had a good instructor, at a small local RS, who is worth her weight in gold. She taught the old fashioned way so your a$$ was glued to the seat and legs glued to the side and you were not allowed off the lunge until you had achieved both! Then you were taught the basics, not just how to do them but why you did it this way, everything she taught you she explained the method and purpose so you understood what you were trying to achieve and again correcting you when you were wrong with an explanation as to where you went wrong. Where have these teachers gone :/

This last few years I have attended lessons on and off with instructors like you have mentioned and it is so frustrating, hence the on and off periods of riding. I don't earn a lot of money but would quite happily spend money on the kind of instruction that I want, it's trying to find a decent instructor/school is the problem.

Where does the problem lie? Personally I feel it is with RSs, If they are charging people a lot of money , because it aint cheap, to teach them to ride then they should be doing just that, they are taking money off people who want to learn to ride but many fail to teach the basics well. With learning anything you know you will probably make mistakes along the way but the least you expect is for the teacher to teach you properly and tell you when you're not doing something right so you can improve, instead of shying away for not wanting to upset anyone. Mistakes is what builds experience. In these places you can spend so much money and months/years down the line realise you have still learnt nothing, well maybe apart from a few tricks.

As a horsey adult, we can make up our minds about places like this fairly quickly whether we want to waste money on places like this, but non-horsey kids/parents or new people to riding have no reason to question teaching methods at RSs, they pay up assuming that they are being taught to do something in the proper and safe way.
 
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dominobrown said:
Riding schools in general are struggling at the moment- most people have a few lessons and buy their own horse!
Click to expand...

This in itself is an issue - nice enough girl at our livery yard - had about 10 lessons and bought a hardly backed 'rescue' horse - spends half an hour a day in the arena hitting it (in a well meaning enough way - not beating it) and going backwards (literally) increasingly fast. Girl well enough taught for 10 lessons, pony genuine enough if green. But both would have been better off spending money on more lessons. more business for RS's and less hassle for pony and rider!
 
Molasses said:
Where’s the problem
It’s a hobby and like any pastime people want different things.
Some want relaxation, adventure, learning, thrills, friends etc. There’s something for everyone.)
Click to expand...

I don't know that I do think its a problem as such - except that I feel that the novice at the trekking center is being done a disservice by being told they are 'experienced' when they are not. Better to take the time even in that environment to gently show how to hold reins the right way up. The problem if there is one comes when these people go somewhere else and say they are experienced and then possibly get a very bad experience or a serious dent in confidence when reality catches up. So I suppose I think both client and instructor owe each other honesty - fine for client to say 'I want to canter or jump but I am not too bothered about the finer points' and if instructor wants to take that on so be it they too should be honest about what they are doing for that person
 
I have lessons on my own horse at a riding school with a riding school instructor as I livery there. I'm very particular about the instructors I use, out of 6, I will only use 2. Both instructors know my long term goals with Elvis and because he's there all the time they really know him and can pick up on subtle changes, which is important as he's a bit of a silly baby who has his moments. I know that we are on a long and slow journey, but it'll be done properly, it's really refreshing having instructors who not only really care about our progress but also aren't trying to impress me with fancy school movements or big jumps. I've been told that when we start jumping it'll be cross poles and grid work for a month before we try anything else- and that's fine with me.
 
Thanks you've put this so much better than I could, only thing to add is when you find a trainer/instructor who is "right for you" hang onto them. I've worked with my current trainer for 4 years, I have a weekly lesson and he's wonderful. He's changed the way i ride without making me feel useless, has got my horse going really well when my previous trainer told me to sell him and is at the end of a phone if I need help between lessons. However, he wouldn't suit everyone because he doesn't do quick fixes but that's fine with me.
Molasses said:
Where’s the problem
It’s a hobby and like any pastime people want different things.
Some want relaxation, adventure, learning, thrills, friends etc. There’s something for everyone.
If one method isn’t working people inevitably seek another. In my youth (when dinosaurs ruled the world) I wanted thrills and would bomb about kicking and pulling. The ponies forgave and got on with it and I didn’t want a lecture on my core and alignment. Now I do want refinement and understanding and learning so I seek that out. I don’t see the problem.
It’s horses they’re wonderful and diverse and there’s something for everyone, just as the instruction is wonderfully diverse. Don’t bemoan utilitarian instruction at trekking yards as let’s be honest most people just want to experience a nice view from horseback. Don’t bemoan riding schools, lets be honest the kids want to have fun and the adults have to unfortunately learn effective riding on less than sensitive horses. Don’t bemoan instruction because if it’s not for you find another instructor. Listen to your horse. Listen to your gut. You’ll know if either of you aren’t happy. But there’s a time and place for kick and pull and a time and place learning that it’s about controlling yourself first before that half-halt will go through the horse. I don’t think it’s the fault of instructor as afterall they have to cater to what the majority of clients want i.e to have a nice time not wrestle with the finer points of their own self control. Some great teachers can adapt and provide for both. But great teachers are rare gems in riding as in anything else. We can all remember that one good teacher that gave us the love of a topic in school. But how many awful teachers did you have killing poetry for you or making you hate math. Same in horses. It’s just another topic like math or language, it’s nothing special ;-)
Click to expand...
 
Regarding the OP there are too many examples of different things in there to give a generalised answer. I can't really comment on RS as not been to one in years. I suppose when you are just starting out you have that little bit of knowledge which you think makes you invincible, and you think you know it all. Also people find it exciting and want to progress. I guess the art of running a good RS is balancing people's desire and excitement for progressing with safety, common sense and a good grounding in the basics. Some RSs and trekking centres have terrible standards of teaching and I think it gets RSs in general a bad name. You can't really always blame the rider/ client if they are being taught by a 15yo (seen this happen plenty of times!!) who isn't that experienced themselves.

It is different as you become more experienced, and once you have your own horse. What do I want from teaching? Someone who is honest about my strengths and weaknesses, who explains logically and clearly to me what I need to do to improve (myself and horse), where I am going wrong and how to address it. Someone who is encouraging without giving me a load of BS about mine and horse's capabilities, but without being such a perfectionist that you never get of walk til it's 100% perfect, 100% of the time. I'm a scientist and quite logically minded so I like someone who can explain clearly. I dislike instructors who only have time to see you once a month and then charge an extortionate amount. Even if you do see them monthly and they give you homework, you never see them enough IME to really progress. I now have weekly or fortnightly lessons with the same instructor (eventer, so does my flatwork and jumping) who also rides the horse weekly, so I have good, detailed plan of how to move forward. That regular contact means she/we pick up on small changes in my riding or horse's way of going and can make changes before they develop.

I used to have an older horse who had arthritis all over the place. He did OK at Prelim, and I took him to the odd Novice. He wasn't really sound enough to jump and TBH he detested dressage anyway, much preferred being out hunting (which is what I ended up doing mainly with him). One instructor proclaimed grandly that he would be doing piaffe within a few months, and should be out competing at Elem, working Med at home. On a 16yo with arthritis in all 4 legs, who hates flatwork, and isn't entirely sound in front... maybe not... That is the sort of stuff I don't want to hear because it is nonsense.
 
Blythe Spirit said:
The problem if there is one comes when these people go somewhere else and say they are experienced and then possibly get a very bad experience or a serious dent in confidence when reality catches up. So I suppose I think both client and instructor owe each other honesty - fine for client to say 'I want to canter or jump but I am not too bothered about the finer points' and if instructor wants to take that on so be it they too should be honest about what they are doing for that person
Click to expand...

Awh you're forgetting human nature
scenario a) if you take the time and tell them how to hold the reins, give them a lovely trek and wave goodbye thinking there goes a nice numpty who at least stayed upright in the saddle despite the horse being in charge the whole time - they'll go on and say they are experienced

scenario b) if you are harassed, it's the last trek of the day you're running around trying to find everyone a hat that fits and you've no time for a hold the reins lesson...they still go away thinking they are super and still tell the next place they're experienced.

why
cos people like to think well of themselves :-)
only idiots like me like to tell themselves they are crap at everything :-)
 
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I agree with most of these comments on this thread, especially the above one.
We do trekking and lessons, and we do refer to some people as 'experienced trekking riders'. These riders can stay on a horse and control a horse kind of- I.e make sure horse follows the one in front. Although these riders call themselves experienced we tend to pair them with an old experienced cob which knows its job!
When I take out treks you find some people will 1)ask loads of questions and want to know if they are doing things right etc, 2) some people just want to sit on horse and enjoy and don't want badgered all the time. As long as they are safe, and not causing discomfort to the horse you just leave them to it, and 3) most dangerous of all, people who think they know more than they do, and will not listen to me. I am generally a nice and forgiving person, but sometimes I am pushed to the point to telling people that if they continue to ignore my instructions they will be dismounted from their horse and made to walk home on foot. Its amazing how many people ignore you! (and 99% of the time its not kids, it middle aged men- or school teachers?!)
 
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