Tears & Temper Tantrums at Bedtime.......& A Serious Question!

[JAK]

So.......CB (yes, him again, sorry!) in school tonight - MD reeled him in quite firmly, low, wide hands, used tons of leg & gawd help us all, his head actually moved, ever so slightly downwards!
Lots of praise, plenty of breaks etc. but he was being made to work quite hard, certainly for him anyway!

Anyway, cool him off & put him to bed! Give him his tea & he moves & (accidentally I think!) stands on MD's foot! She pushes him off (gently!) & stamp, whallop, he lashes out in temper, catching her on her boot & giving her a 'dead leg'!
So what, you cry? Well, firstly, kicking is a horrible habit & this was undoubtedly due to him being made to 'do' something earlier that he found difficult & confusing!
So, my question is (before we continue with him!)............:

Should he be allowed to just bumble on in the same old manner, or should we persevere with what we want him to sometimes do, no matter the temper outbursts that may result?
(I think he was most upset by YO helpfully trying to show MD where his head should be! He objected strongly to this & YO was forced to give up, as he refused to comply in any way whatsoever!)

He had a 'face' on him when MD was cooling him off, so I was not surprised that he had a fit of temper a short while later!
YO was not overly harsh with him but he does not like being handled or ridden by other people & took his anger out on MD - an unusal occurence, as I was only saying earlier that he is not a 'sulker' - he normally blows a fuse, then it's all over & forgotten!

Are we being 'unkind'? Will we 'spoil' him by continuing or should we just 'work through the temper tantrums etc. & hope we all emerge out the other side, not only 'much improved' but hopefully still in one piece?
I do not wish to set either child or pony on a path from which there is possibly 'no return' but neither do I see the need for him to get away with blue murder, as we already know full well that he is placid & co-operative as long as he is doing what he wants & it's only when you say "No, now hang on a minute!" that you often run into the flip side of his nature!

Not sure if I am making any sense here?

 

[teapot]

I think that with kids around - a pony needs to know its boundaries and what he can and can't do. And lashing out is something that shouldn't be done.

Yes all ponies have the ability to kick and it's something that will always be there but sounds like you're doing the right thing.

If you stop reprimanding him now, he may then realise that "oo if I do this, I can get out of doing x,y and z" which will be a negative thing in the long run

 

[Skhosu]

I would take it in small steps. You know him best, perhaps push the limits gently until they can be stretched further?

 

[JAK]

Would you keep 'training' him though, if it results in him throwing temper tantrums (not all the time of course!), as he is now being 'made' to conform & comply?
I avoid conflict wherever possible & am a firm believer in keeping it all quite 'fun' & 'light-hearted' but there comes a time when some degree of compulsion is necessary, as nice though I am, I don't agree with keeping something sweet by simply letting it have its own way all the time either!

He has a nasty reputation for kicking apparently & I have heard some really quite unpleasant tales about him, so we are aware of what he can be like but sometimes you just have to say "No, I'm sorry, I insist!]!", don't you?
He is a bit of an emotional retard in some ways tbh & he is frequently like dealing with a youngster, (or a stroppy teenager! LOL), so we haven't 'rushed' him in any way!

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
I would take it in small steps. You know him best, perhaps push the limits gently until they can be stretched further?

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this a kind way of saying "Why did you cross the line & let your YO take hold of him, knowing he hates being manhandled, you silly c*w?" LOL

(You'd be right if it was, as that's where we made the mistake for sure! It was just too much for him I reckon & the look on his face said so! He'd been 'good' up to that point! I know what he's like but I pushed him into it, didn't I?

)

 

[teapot]

I think with a pony like that - it's case of playing to their strengths and trying to be one step ahead of them

For instance - old share pony (mentioned in your other thread) was always so blimmin desperate to canter so I was always like ok then - and would push him on and on and on until he was like hmm maybe this isn't as much fun.

I dont think you can make any horse or pony do something they dont want to as you'll end up on the floor 9 times out of 10. But he sounds like he's got a lot to give, it's just getting him to give it.

And he's obviously not brilliant with other people doing it. What's he like being ridden with very little contact - ie: working from behind etc.

I used to ride a cob who was at my RS who was so much on his forehand - he was basically a wheelbarrow and getting him to soften and come round was a nightmare. The more you touched his mouth, he'd lean and lean - so effectively getting nowhere. I loved this cobablob (was only person who managed to get him to tank off and be cheeky (I'm talking proper RS laid back cob)) so I thought - wont use hands at all. Barely rode with a contact - nothing to lean on and worked on engaging behind and he began to click and realise what I wanted to do.

Anyways I've rambled and it probably makes no sense. I would keep going, sounds like you've come along way already and it's that final push

 

[Skhosu]

not at all! I just know my pony can only cope if asked to improve in small stages!
I know exactly what you mean as an old pony you had to ignore certain things, but at times you just have to say 'NO!'.
TBH, I would keep training him and leave it so you don't have too much handling to do afterwards, maybe he'll forget about it by the morning?
Hope MD is alright btw!

 

[malibu211211]

Hi JAK,
I don't think you are being unkind especially as he has shown you he can do it (even if it is for 2 seconds and then he throws a strop).
I think if you are gonna ask him to do this then it needs to be consistent (not out hacking) but when he is in the school he is asked to work properly for short periods of time then praised LOTS. Maybe starting off with once at the end of a session then he gets to leave on a good note and do whatever he enjoys ( sounds like that would involve food

)
Sorry if I'm not much help

Mali xx

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
What's he like being ridden with very little contact - ie: working from behind etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I wouldn't go as far as to call it 'working from behind' but he'll trundle round quite happily on no contact whatsoever, trotting & cantering round like a wind-up toy on full batteries!
It's not 'pretty' but he 'gets' this & it makes sense to him, so anything over & above this is just bl**dy hard work really!

 

[GTs]

Are you sure he is not pain from his work, and it hurts when you are pushing him over? Might be worth you becareful and prodding him a bit and see what happens.

But if it is bad manners...............

I feel sorry for any horse that kicks me - I will get my Jackie Chan on!!

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
TBH, I would keep training him and leave it so you don't have too much handling to do afterwards, maybe he'll forget about it by the morning?
Hope MD is alright btw!

[/ QUOTE ]
MD is fine now & advice is spot on! If she hadn't been faffing about in his ruddy stable, he wouldn't have had the chance to nail her, would he?

From now on, little steps, then praise, bed, tea, lights off & 'goodnight'! LOL

 

[Skhosu]

Good Luck!

 

[Doreys_Mum]

Doesn't he like his jumping?

If he's anything like any of mine, he'll forget that he was schooling earlier on

Zak would throw tantrums as well. He'd kick his door and if you smacked him for it, he'd turn around, and stomp his foot (not paw, STOMP) in the corner of his stable until he realised no one cared...

 

[teapot]

[ QUOTE ]

From now on, little steps, then praise, bed, tea, lights off & 'goodnight'! LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds like a good idea for now

best of luck with him

 

[lilym]

i would pesevere with him, there will be lots of strops and tantrums along the way, as it sounds like he has had things his own way for too long, look how you persevered with his leading problems.....my blobby mare throws strops when she doesn't feel like doing something, but i am firm and insist and as soon as she gets the idea she gets a mega fuss!! these cob types can learn to use their strength and their wits against you, so you have to tactfully teach them that this is not an option, mine tends to strop when i push her out of her comfort zone, but i always end my schooling sessions with something she finds easy and end on a good note, and push her out of her comfort zone a little more each time, it does take a long time and often you will feel like you are not getting anywhere, but one day it will all click into place, good luck!

 

[JAK]

No Mali, that's very helpful actually!
I'm just looking for a bit of reassurance that we will not turn him into a psychopathic monster by insisting he can't have it all his own way, all the time, the hairy little gonk!

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you sure he is not pain from his work, and it hurts when you are pushing him over? Might be worth you becareful and prodding him a bit and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so GTs, from the simple deduction that:
Having everything go smooth & how he likes it = 'fluffy puppy pony'!
Having things not go his way, 'out of order' or whatever = 'rabid werewolf pony'!

This applies not only to 'work' but also everyday life & at the beginning, could be triggered by something as simple as touching his tail! (Still comes under the category of 'dicing with death' for anyone other than MD actually!)

I will have him thoroughly 'checked out' however, just as I would advocate anyone else doing! LOL

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't he like his jumping?
If he's anything like any of mine, he'll forget that he was schooling earlier on

[/ QUOTE ]
No, he hates jumping in the school - his favourite 'reward' is a thundering good gallop but he can't do that now, as every field is now in use!

Oh-oh, hang on a minute.......light coming on here........! Hhmm, thinks......what real reward has he had of late? (You may just have been more helpful than you'd realised D_M!)

 

[JAK]

Thanks lilym, you're dead right on every count - that is just like CB!

I think I may be feeling a little guilty, as I pushed him a little too far maybe! I am really annoyed with myself, as we try so hard to do the right thing with the ponies & I hate making mistakes - I really dwell on them! Feeble or what? LOL

 

[lilym]

don't worry, he's not as delicate as you think!! i go home feeling guilty if i have told the moo cow off for some reason, so i must be soft too!! don't worry he will find another little trick to entertain you with soon........just as the moo cow has learnt to dive back into the line up while doing the canter stage of our individual show..... i will call it leg yeild in scrabbling sideways canter!!

 

[JAK]

Eek - CB hasn't discovered that trick yet but I'm sure he will! He's quite bright actually & it only took him two classes to realise that when ponies start disappearing either side of you, they're not actually abandoning you to your fate, just going to stand back in the middle for the line-up! LOL

Don't know what made MD snivel more - the fact that he'd booted her one or the fact that she'd had a 'falling-out' with him! (The latter I think & she is always convinced that he 'doesn't love her anymore' when he does these bad, naughty things, when in fact, he loves her dearly I reckon!)

 

[Doreys_Mum]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't he like his jumping?
If he's anything like any of mine, he'll forget that he was schooling earlier on

[/ QUOTE ]
No, he hates jumping in the school - his favourite 'reward' is a thundering good gallop but he can't do that now, as every field is now in use!

Oh-oh, hang on a minute.......light coming on here........! Hhmm, thinks......what real reward has he had of late? (You may just have been more helpful than you'd realised D_M!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, the thundering gallop... if Dorey were fitter, she'd enjoy that one... lol!

I know my cobs, you brainwash them into forgetting the work, and they still love you. They may also really forget the work...

 

[JAK]

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I know my cobs, you brainwash them into forgetting the work, and they still love you.

[/ QUOTE ]
So true! LOL
[ QUOTE ]
They may also really forget the work...

[/ QUOTE ]
No, no D_M, this part is not true - please say it's not true!

Anyway, I thought cobs were like elephants......never forget a thing, or was it that they were more like goldfish.......forget it all 3 seconds later?
Dammit, now which one was it?

 

[Doreys_Mum]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know my cobs, you brainwash them into forgetting the work, and they still love you.

[/ QUOTE ]
So true! LOL
[ QUOTE ]
They may also really forget the work...

[/ QUOTE ]
No, no D_M, this part is not true - please say it's not true!

Anyway, I thought cobs were like elephants......never forget a thing, or was it that they were more like goldfish.......forget it all 3 seconds later?
Dammit, now which one was it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm... well you know why Dorey's called Dorey don't you?

Ever watched Finding Nemo?

Zak on the other hand remembered too much from before we had him. Took Sally MONTHS to get him to realise an outline was simply him working on the bit, not him working with his nose pressed against his chest.

She wasn't holding him, he'd do it automatically, poor boy - didn't help his breathing in the slightest!

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
Erm... well you know why Dorey's called Dorey don't you?
Ever watched Finding Nemo?

[/ QUOTE ]
Noooooooo! I knew there was a reason for me telling MD she could have anything she liked (within reason!), as long as it wasn't a cob! Sadly, I was apparently too senile to remember why I didn't want a cob but shortly after CB arrived, I miraculously did remember! (Actually, vile though he is at times, I wouldn't swap him for the world now! *she says through gritted teeth*) LOL

[ QUOTE ]
Zak on the other hand remembered too much from before we had him. Took Sally MONTHS to get him to realise an outline was simply him working on the bit, not him working with his nose pressed against his chest.

[/ QUOTE ]
Awww, poor Zak - that's quite sad actually! Wonder what'd been done to him to make him reluctant to even ease his own discomfort?

 

[Doreys_Mum]

The thing stopping him from easing the discomfort was the fear of more discomfort.

He was too scared to be tacked up when we got him, and still shook when he was sold years later.

And heaven's forbid you moved a broom, hose, fork or girth too quickly around him

Cobs tend to remember two things... food, and bad things - and they're normally very bolshy about the former, but very delicate about the latter!

 

[PeterNatt]

A horse that kicks should not be near children - they are just too dangerous. Read last weeks Horse and Hounds.

 

[siennamum]

To be blunt, if a pony lashed out at one of my children and I could react in time I would get a large stick and hit it hard. I would be bloody furious and not agonise about hurting pony's feelings.
If he is being asked to work in a way which he finds uncomfortable & hard work then it is kinder to press on and make quick progress, if neccessary with a bigger stronger rider who can explain things clearly & in a short lesson rather than over a period of months and with him throwing up more tricks and naughtiness along the way.
Whilst I am always prepared to meet (ponies especially) them halfway and always insist they enjoy their work, horses have to fundamentally be submissive and earn their keep.

 

[Doreys_Mum]

[ QUOTE ]
A horse that kicks should not be near children - they are just too dangerous. Read last weeks Horse and Hounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

All horses kick, it's their nature.

Horses will always be dangerous to kids.

Should we ban kids from riding?

I had a rescue mare who was prone to the odd cow kick - never did me any harm!

And doesn't HHO also report on people who die out hacking? Should we not do that?

 

[siennamum]

I've never had a pony or horse which kicked and I've owned/ ridden 40 - 50 of them in the past 40 years.
If I had a pony which kicked I would consider it unsafe around children. I think PN makes a very valid point.