Tears & Temper Tantrums at Bedtime.......& A Serious Question!

[Doreys_Mum]

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I've never had a pony or horse which kicked and I've owned/ ridden 40 - 50 of them in the past 40 years.
If I had a pony which kicked I would consider it unsafe around children. I think PN makes a very valid point.

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I've seen every single one of my horses kick out in the field, either out of pleasure or at another horse pissing them off...

Fair enough, there is spiteful kicking out of spite.... but horses kick for a reason.

A horse is half a ton of living, thinking and very powerful flesh, they are dangerous reguardless of whether they kick or not. I have been crushed by a horse who simply paniced and ran away - should I have beaten her for hurting me? Should I have got shot of her?

We had another mare who kicked after being hobbled. Would you have beaten her? Or, like my mum, don your hard hat and play with her back legs until anyone could handle them? As now children can?

I'm sorry, but a well aimed kick is no better or worse than a well aimed stand on a child who's just fallen off. Want to protect kids from horses? Don't let them ride!

JM, I hate to say it, but that attitude is the one that ruins cobs in the first place. People like me end up with these jibbering wrecks we have to completely rework at the age of 9 just to be able to get them to stop shaking. Cobs do have a selective memory, aye, and they do remember the bad bits... and it absolutely ruins them.

 

[siennamum]

There is absolutely no correlation between a horse kicking another in the field and a horse kicking a person whilst being handled.
We are talking about horses kicking people, even the rescue animals I've had haven't kicked, if they did I would probably use a false hand and persist until they accepted being handled.

A pony/cob kicking it's owner out of spite, temper is something entirely different.
I've owned plenty of cobs, they are not a unique breed, there is no comparison between a shire cross cob and a welsh cob, they can be completely different in terms of temperament and handling. Claiming they need special treatment because they are 'cobs' is nonsense.

 

[Sooty]

Do you really think the kicking was associated with the lesson earlier? Or just an instinctive reaction to thinking maybe he was going to get into trouble for treading on her foot? I only ask because I had never credited horses with thinking that laterally! Kicking is a nasty habit and needs to be dealt with, if it happens again, before it becomes a habit, but I am not convinced of the connection between the two. But then again, you know your pony best!

 

[Blizzard]

I know all about temper tantrums in the school!

My welsh is the cuddliest kindest horse on the ground and on a hack, take her in the school and she is a woman posessed!

Could it be pyschological? with my mare it s, she was really overworked in the school when she was prof schooled, I think they beat her, and she sweats up within 2 mins and will not work, she does everything from tossing her head to stamping her feet, and when hat doesnt work she then tried to roll with you or does full scale rears!

We are now taking her in the school for 5 mins every day with a rider on the lunge and she is an angel, angel to loose school too, then rewarding her with a hack for being good in the school, its working and I think its imprtant to take things one step at a time, especially with horses that want heir own way, like mine!

 

[malibu211211]

Hi,

By beating your horse into submission you are forcing him to do as you ask.

I would much rather have a horse that chooses to do what I ask because it wants to please me not because it is frightened of me

Whats wrong with spending the time with him doing some groundwork?
Rewarding him with a headrub when he even looks as though he is he might do something you ask. He might even enjoy it

Horses are far too powerful to get into a fight with and one day you will come across one that will not back down to you beating it

Mali xx

 

[siennamum]

Sorry, not sure who you are talking to. Don't think it can be me as I don't beat my horses, never had to, they all behave impeccably.
All come to call, load themselves without a frown and are ridden almost entirely without a whip. Can't remember the last time I had to smack one of them on the ground, in fact can't remember the last time I had to smack one of them when on board (think it was July going cross country, when I erroneously hit myself on the leg instead)
One of these paragons of virtue is a 5 year old, ex gypsy cob, effectively rescued as being a bit unrideable by JM7, who is now being handled by and carrying a small, novice 9 year old around on pretty much voice commands alone. Don't think either JM7 or I have hit him ever - you either have some authority around horses or you don't.

 

[malibu211211]

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To be blunt, if a pony lashed out at one of my children and I could react in time I would get a large stick and hit it hard. I would be bloody furious and not agonise about hurting pony's feelings.

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You may not hit your own but you advised JAK that, that is what you would do

 

[Pidge]

Could have hit the nail on the head there as if Sunny is bored, he creates his own mischief which we percieve as bad behaviour! So we try to keep his work as varied as possible and give him treats, like cantering out hacking, jumping etc so that he is happy. If he's happy then so are we as we don't have to deal with his bad behaviour. Does that make sense? Are you going to Stafford on Sunday as I've got that picture from Penkridge for you?

 

[Doreys_Mum]

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There is absolutely no correlation between a horse kicking another in the field and a horse kicking a person whilst being handled.
We are talking about horses kicking people, even the rescue animals I've had haven't kicked, if they did I would probably use a false hand and persist until they accepted being handled.

A pony/cob kicking it's owner out of spite, temper is something entirely different.
I've owned plenty of cobs, they are not a unique breed, there is no comparison between a shire cross cob and a welsh cob, they can be completely different in terms of temperament and handling. Claiming they need special treatment because they are 'cobs' is nonsense.

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I have owned plenty of cobs two, one welsh, two irish and two gypsy.

Irish ones especially can be EXTREMLY delicate. Dorey used to be very bloshy but it was pretty damn easy to control without resorting to excessive violence.
Zak was never hit once because of the state he was in.... if we'd hit him, he'd have never spoken to us again!

Ironically, the one time he bit someone delibratly, my mum, instead of hitting him for it, called the vet. He had a patch of funny skin and she knew the minute he bit it was sore without even needing to touch him.

Cobs have moodswings, cobs need a caring and understanding owner, and cobs can be bolshy. But by forcing them into submission you simply create a timebomb.

500kg of horse nearly killed my sister because someone beat up Zak with any manner of yard equipment. I have a good inkling who as well.

He was a proper cob, not a welsh, not a riding school, a proper proper cob - gypsies jaws would drop if they saw him. And yet he had a mental breakdown because he couldn't keep making sure he was a good boy in order to avoid beatings.

This attitude of cobs need to be beaten up a bit to keep them submissive is absolute bullshit. Yes, I have been firm with Dorey, yes, I have used schooling whips and my feet to my advantage. But normally no more than pushing her back or away from me in an inclosed space! And as I said, god forbid you did that to Zak!!!

The other cobs, the gypsies and the welsh, Midi and Carrie were the worst. Midi tended to take things to heart a lot and got very depressed very easily, and Carrie was incredably neaurotic about who was gonna hurt her.

Backtrack now, but you are claiming violence against cobs is the only communication they understand. If you stand back, let the poor beast stop shaking and give it a pat, you'll find they do actually learn from kindness too.

 

[siennamum]

absolutely. I would be really worried if one of my animals deliberately tried to kick one of my children or me. (or anyone) it would be completely unacceptable and dangerous. I would certainly hit it, I might use a stick or a lead rope, whatever came to hand, I would demand that the pony backed off & would want it to be worried about what it had done and my reaction to it.
I would accompany the smack with a loud shouting and probably some fairly ripe language.

My children are taught that when they want their ponies to move away from them - they must, they request that their ponies move their feet away from them on demand and they back up when asked. They have never hit their pnies to my knowledge and I have not had to ever do more than a slap on the chest and a harsh word if they are being ignorant.
That is very different than a pony aiming a kick at a person or child. Then I would react the same way my mare (who is the boss) would, she'd be bloody furious and kick back. Without a pair of hooves I would use anything else which comes to hand!

 

[siennamum]

I think you are delusional. Where have I claimed that violence is the only communication they understand.

 

[Weezy]

And not all cobs are the same!!!!!!!!!

 

[Weezy]

Exactly! (BTW I used quick reply and that was for Buns benefit!)

Its like saying all TBs are flighty or all WBs are totally dumb - sheeesh wouldnt it make horse ownership easier if they DID come with a guarentee of temprement

 

[BBs]

She reads what she wants to read Sienna!

Ive bitten my tongue so far but....

What makes a cob any different to any other equine beastie? why are they any more sensitve than an arab, IDx, TB or Connie?

Youre making yourself sound like you are the next Kelly Marks - however, I and a good few others know that isnt true.

Because someone puts their pony/horse in its place ONCE! does not mean they are violent, heavy handed or cruel to their animals!

There is one certain equine little monster that doesnt DO kindness! they just end up walking over their owners and making them look a laughing stock! they may only be 15h but they are built like a brick and certainly arent scared - if they dont want to go for a hack (which is usual) they refuse to move or kick out - owners are scared so get off and put said ponyo back in their field - this makes me see red! a horse is to be enjoyed and do what it was bought for - the owner isnt to be dictated to! after all they pay the bills the pony doesnt!
At which point, I took over the reins and asked it to walk forward, it did a few steps and refused to move any further, so i sat there - and start there, and sat there asking again - it moved again and then back up into the ditch deciding actually NO dotn want to go any further and tried to frighten me like it does its owners! at which point i just sat there and waited for it to pick itself out of the ditch - i asked again and it said nope! so i gave it two very large wollops on its ass he threw itself around abit i asked again to walk forward, it did getting to the top of the road and said nope by standing still yet again - so i sat there again till it got bored - it then walked forward and was fine after that and did teh ride i wanted.

It was fine after that with the owners for a bit then got naughty again - i walked over to it and owner and horse went off for a hack fine - pony took one look at me and thought better of it - however, i wouldnt call that abusive, and i certainly know said pony was NOT scared and shaking - he was praised for going forwards and repremanded for not!

Was I wrong for hitting the horse twice after it tried to put me in a ditch? or should I have just turned the bugger back out in the field and let it get away with it? and given it a nice pat and say there darling dont worry about it?

 

[princesskelly]

bb's i think your so right.when dealing with half a ton of horse you cant be pushed round.

 

[Doreys_Mum]

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Youre making yourself sound like you are the next Kelly Marks - however, I and a good few others know that isnt true.


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What the flying [****] does that mean?

Yes, I support natural horsemanship, and I believe in listening to your horse. But where the hell does "but we know what isn't true" come from?

That I am incaperble of treating my horses in a way they understand?

Unlike a LOT of people on here, I know where my horses are coming from, and so does JAK. Hitting CB would have ended up in someone being seriously kicked. He is iffy around his tail end reguardless, and was making it clear he wanted people away from him.

And making a horse that deals with children more violent is frigging dangerous indeed.

And there's no point telling ME that Cobs are just like any breed... I do believe both JM7 and Siennamum mentioned how they were different as well...

but I want to know where your spiteful little dig at my horse management came from, BBs. Just cos I lack any grading doesn't mean I'm a crap horsewoman.

I'm taking up bleeding eventing now... perhaps some points will grant me a valid opinion, as apparently affiliated showing and being taught by an ai and eventer (who, whilst we're thinking about it, has heard of you BBs....) means jack...

 

[Vey]

Jak - I wouldn't worry too much. You have plainly done just fine up to now. He is behaving much better, and MD, to whom my hat is still off, is working well with him.

On the bit. Sigh. The thing is, that the really important thing is how his working is - is he working from behind, etc etc. This obsession (which seems to me to be a modern obsession) with the neck bending and the head being in a certain place, well, frankly it seems to me that many riders and judges have forgotten that it is suppose to come about because the horse is working in a particular way, and it is natural for his head to then go into this position.

Look you've got all winter. If I was MD I would try getting him to have all the impulsion he can over the next couple of months - really really working well and moving himself. Then, rather than trying to get his head in the 'right' position all at once, when he is at his happiest, I would ask, very gently, for him to collect himself a bit more. Don't worry about his head position, just work on a good collection, where you have the impulsion and less of the speed.

Some judges will like that - so that is positive.

Then you could try a pelham, once you are sure you have a bit more impulsion and a bit less speed. It is not, by its nature a horrible bit, and it is often a good bit for heavy animals. If you get a vulcanite or rubber mouth one, and have two reins and go very very easy on the curb rein you will have quite a gentle bit, in the right hands. It suits horses who hate jointed bits (my own big pony is very unhappy in jointed bits and goes either in a straight nylon snaffle or a Pelham and is happy in either). I am sure a rider as sensitive to her pony as your daughter will learn to use it in a way that he likes, or at least tolerates. But I don't think there is any good using it unless you are confident aobut there being some collection.

You know as well as I do that it is amazing what time, patience and sympathy will do in the end.

 

[BBs]

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Youre making yourself sound like you are the next Kelly Marks - however, I and a good few others know that isnt true.


[/ QUOTE ]

What the flying [****] does that mean?

Yes, I support natural horsemanship, and I believe in listening to your horse. But where the hell does "but we know what isn't true" come from?

That I am incaperble of treating my horses in a way they understand?

Unlike a LOT of people on here, I know where my horses are coming from, and so does JAK. Hitting CB would have ended up in someone being seriously kicked. He is iffy around his tail end reguardless, and was making it clear he wanted people away from him.

And making a horse that deals with children more violent is frigging dangerous indeed.

And there's no point telling ME that Cobs are just like any breed... I do believe both JM7 and Siennamum mentioned how they were different as well...

but I want to know where your spiteful little dig at my horse management came from, BBs. Just cos I lack any grading doesn't mean I'm a crap horsewoman.

I'm taking up bleeding eventing now... perhaps some points will grant me a valid opinion, as apparently affiliated showing and being taught by an ai and eventer (who, whilst we're thinking about it, has heard of you BBs....) means jack...

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Haha another eventer - first Rambo now you.

Actually SoD Im being honest in what i say just like you - however, you dont seem to like it when someone else is rude to you, but it seems to be okay for you to be damn right rude to others on here including myself not so long ago

.

Oh Im all for listening to my horse, however im no tree hugger.

Oh and BTW in answer to your last comment - hey there are loads of eventers and AIs that know me, hey even Yogi knows me

- so your point being

 

[Weezy]

I know you, I am an AI!

And TBH, an AI is bugger all in the whole grand scheme of things, but hey ho!

 

[Doreys_Mum]

That if your standards are so much higher than everyone elses, at least I have contacts up there!

People being rude to me, I don't mind... because they're all wrong...

People questioning my mental state will get slapped if I ever meet them, sorry but when you are borderline mentally ill, for some punk on the internet to sit there going "ooh, you're crazy, I don't like you crazy bitch" makes me very very angry... ie their comments are true...

I don't know about other people, but I only get upset when the insult is true. Call me a slut and I am highly likely to crawl off into the corner and cry - because it's true.

I can deal with any spite behind what you said, whilst I'm not the next kelly marks, it's not true that I can't do NH, what I couldn't work out is if it was an attempt at below the belt spite, or if you are joining the "Dorey is a witch cos Bundle don't control her" camp.

 

[Doreys_Mum]

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I know you, I am an AI!

And TBH, an AI is bugger all in the whole grand scheme of things, but hey ho!

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So, ex competitors with qualifications in teaching mean bugger all... thats nice...

 

[BBs]

I give up! you dont listen to what ppl are saying to you, you make thinks up half the time - I have never once questioned or mentioned your state of mind.

As for your petty slap threat - just try dear SoD Im not in the mood.

My point for all this is that YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT - just like Im not always right and I acknowledge that when it comes to horses everyone has their own way.

Howver, how you've turned round and said to ppl on here that they are too heavy handed or cruel to their horses is absolute rubbish.

Yes I quite agree my reply was (for BB's) quite harsh - however, i dont think I have quite got over your remark to me regarding doping! I was shocked and very hurt after that! however, that was then and I should lean not to drag crap up from the past - equally - you seem to also drag up information from the past - your last quote infact regarding Dorey - in fact Kat I have no idea what you are going on about!

So I apologise if you feel i was questioning your mental state - however I wasnt - I was questioning your rudeness and why you think your methods of handing cobs is better than anyone else.

Interesting to note I also showed - and they also happend to be Cobs - so just because i am a *eventer* oh turning to *BSJA* doesnt mean to say I dont understand cobs either.

 

[Weezy]

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I know you, I am an AI!

And TBH, an AI is bugger all in the whole grand scheme of things, but hey ho!

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So, ex competitors with qualifications in teaching mean bugger all... thats nice...

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Seriously Buns there are some really crap AIs out there, its not something that I use to big me up - thats all I was saying! Most people become good teachers because of their experience rather than a silly AI exam

I wasnt putting YOUR teacher down, rather I was putting myself down!

 

[Doreys_Mum]

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Seriously Buns there are some really crap AIs out there, its not something that I use to big me up - thats all I was saying! Most people become good teachers because of their experience rather than a silly AI exam

I wasnt putting YOUR teacher down, rather I was putting myself down!

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Sally is fab... there are so many people who'd have just made Zak worse, and then suggested he was shot.

BBs, reguardless of how I say it, if I say something, I mean it cos I believe it. Yep, I might come across as the uber bitch, but thats cos I have all the tact of a bull in a chinashop.

However, I will always give my own opinion, even if it is against the grain and against the popular kids.

And I can't apologise for that!!

(I can, however, apologise for delivery... Myles is teaching me to appear less volatile, but it doens't always work... like everytime he doesnt proof read a post... lol!)

 

[druid]

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Irish ones especially can be EXTREMLY delicate. Dorey used to be very bloshy but it was pretty damn easy to control without resorting to excessive violence.

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Eh, no, they're not. Most Irish cobs are laid back creatures to the point of practically being horizontal! "Delicate"? I think not, they are hardy and far easier to handle than warm/hot blooded horses.

 

[Doreys_Mum]

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Irish ones especially can be EXTREMLY delicate. Dorey used to be very bloshy but it was pretty damn easy to control without resorting to excessive violence.

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Eh, no, they're not. Most Irish cobs are laid back creatures to the point of practically being horizontal! "Delicate"? I think not, they are hardy and far easier to handle than warm/hot blooded horses.

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They don't take kindly to being upset, is what I mean. They're very easy to handle but one real bad fright can really shake them

 

[druid]

Ok...I've hit Sparky on several ocassions. She's 17hh & 625kg of hot blooded, moody mare with a predisposition to rearing and kicking. WTF wouldn't I make sure she knew EXACTLY where her place was? People have repeatedly commented on how nice her manners are yet you can swing a schooling whip around her head all you like and she won't bat an eye lid. There's a difference between discipline and violence

 

[druid]

Really, no. I've handled well over a hundred who coem from very mixed backgrounds - they take everything (from beatings to being passed from pillar to post) in thier stride compared to WB/TB etc

 

[druid]

Oh yes definitely

He seemed really traumatised in his huge field with his bowen treatments and custom saddle! And his doting parents!

 

[Beanyowner]

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druid...would you say JM is a traumatised, poor little irish cob??

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J...traumatised...definetly!! Such a hard life he has at the JM household...what with all that eating...and eating and ...umm....eating! Very traumatic!!