Tell me about show cockers

[Patchworkpony]

I love spaniels. I love working spaniels but know that I am too long in the tooth to give one the active working life it needs. So the compromise is Cavaliers or show cockers. Cavaliers from reputable breeders round here means going on a year's waiting list and then as they say themselves there is still no guarantee of a healthy dog therefore the remaining choice is a show cocker. I have seen a smaller one locally but the majority I come across seem to be heavy coated dogs with thick limbs and overlong ears which is why I prefer the look of the lighter more agile looking working breed. My questions to the spaniel experts out there are:

Are all show cockers built on the heavy chunky side?

Are they as intelligent as the working breeds?

Do they take easily to being trained or are they stubborn?

My vet said they can be possessive and unpredictable is this true?

Is it best to keep them clipped as they have such thick coats?

Are they truly less active than the workers?

Can you sometimes find a quiet working type that is content to flop?

I would appreciate your honest input. Thank you.

 

[Alec Swan]

1. Not sure, but they appear to be.

2. Define intelligent! Being stubborn and intractable is often mistaken for being Thick.

3. See 2! The question 'Are they generally 'trainable' ' would come back with a general 'No'!

4. Of the few that I've had any dealings with, I'd say that your vet may well be right.

5. I wouldn't know, it would probably be dog-dependent.

6. Generally, yes.

7. Most certainly you can, and the best place to find one may be a rescue of an adult dog (12+ months), then what you see is what you will get!

8. You're welcome!

I've never yet seen a show-bred Cocker that I would want. They may exist, it's just that I've yet to see one!

Alec.

 

[{97702}]

I love spaniels. I love working spaniels but know that I am too long in the tooth to give one the active working life it needs. So the compromise is Cavaliers or show cockers. Cavaliers from reputable breeders round here means going on a year's waiting list and then as they say themselves there is still no guarantee of a healthy dog therefore the remaining choice is a show cocker. I have seen a smaller one locally but the majority I come across seem to be heavy coated dogs with thick limbs and overlong ears which is why I prefer the look of the lighter more agile looking working breed. My questions to the spaniel experts out there are:

Are all show cockers built on the heavy chunky side?

No, they aren't

Are they as intelligent as the working breeds?

Do they take easily to being trained or are they stubborn?

Yes they do

My vet said they can be possessive and unpredictable is this true?

Ignore what your vet says, any dog acts differently when it is being seen/treated by a vet!

Is it best to keep them clipped as they have such thick coats?

Entirely your choice about how much of an easy life you would like

Are they truly less active than the workers?

Thankfully yes, still fun and playful but not hyperactive

Can you sometimes find a quiet working type that is content to flop?

I would appreciate your honest input. Thank you.

I've answered what I can - my sister has a show cocker now, he is a sweetie who has a lot more about him than her 2 CKCS I have a friend who has working cocker & I freely admit it would drive me mad to live with such manic dogs, they never seem to stop

 

[Patchworkpony]

You are the two 'experts' I was hoping for an opinion from. Thank you both.

 

[BuzzyBea]

I've had 2 show cockers over the years. Lost one 4 years ago and now have a nearly 12 year old. My brother has a working cocker of the same age so they have almost grown up together. Hopefully I can answer your questions helpfully!!

Are all show cockers built on the heavy chunky side? Our boy is very stocky but was very large born wheras our girl was much lighter set. She was solid but not heavy.

Are they as intelligent as the working breeds? Just as intelligent I would say just so much more laid back and chilled.

Do they take easily to being trained or are they stubborn? Very food orientated so I have found them easy to train - only issue with both is selective hearing re-call wise. Never a major problem and no running off but prefer to snuffle in the undergrowth than come back sometimes!! My brother's girl is spot on with her re-call as is my dalmatian (suggesting it is the breed rather than the owner!!)

My vet said they can be possessive and unpredictable is this true? Found all of them very level temperament wise and very predictable!! All I would say is that they have their favourites ie my girl loved my OH more than anyone else but my boy is by my side every minute and doesn't really care for anyone else. On the other hand my brother's w/cocker is the same with him.

Is it best to keep them clipped as they have such thick coats? My girl had a thick curly coat which matted easily so I kept it short. My boy has a soft silky coat so he is able to keep his longer with a skirt.

Are they truly less active than the workers? They are still very bouncy. My old boy has displaced hips but even now will jump with both feet off the floor when he is excited! I have found though that with a good off the lead run everyday that by the time they reach 3 they tend to sleep the rest of the time.

Can you sometimes find a quiet working type that is content to flop? I haven't met one!!! Maybe a show x working might give you the best of both worlds?

Good luck!!! I have to say that if it was my decision going from a working cocker for something quieter but still with some life about them I would always choose a Cocker over a Cav. Seems like a greater leap to be making IMO.

 

[blackcob]

My mum has one which I handle in the show ring so I've ended up spending more time than I'd anticipated around the little beggars.

Are all show cockers built on the heavy chunky side?

Bitches are smaller and finer but yes, they have more bone and are more 'sturdy' than most workers. Ears are long and getting longer, as are coats

Are they as intelligent as the working breeds?

In my limited experience, no - they tend towards being dippy and a bit fick. I am sure there are exceptions, there are a small number with working titles

Do they take easily to being trained or are they stubborn?

Despite not being the cleverest dog he's surprisingly trainable, much more so than my sibes - 'biddable' is the word I'd use

My vet said they can be possessive and unpredictable is this true?

There are various rumours/myths about 'rage syndrome', not sure of the truth of it. Mum's dog has a tendency to be possessive of her but is not bothered about toys etc. I would describe the majority I've met as sweet, loving, dippy little dogs, with perhaps a tendency towards being sensitive or clingy

Is it best to keep them clipped as they have such thick coats?

The full show coat requires daily maintenance and regular skilled stripping/trimming - it is a LOT of work and very impractical for a pet dog, it stays wet and gets full of crud very easily. Equally I do hate to see them clipped down to the wood, they look all naked and uncockery. There's probably a balance to be had between the two but either way it involves regular grooming. Solid black dogs have the heaviest coats, goldens and partis are a bit easier to manage

Are they truly less active than the workers?

They seem to take as much or as little exercise as you're able to give them, certainly ours can do a full day out with the sibes but is otherwise content on about an hour a day

Can you sometimes find a quiet working type that is content to flop?

Probably, there is huge variation in the breed.

There are health issues to be aware of - eyes in particular are a concern.

 

[luckyoldme]

am i the only one who was opening this thread to post on how nice it is to come home to dinner ready in the slow cooker?

 

[satinbaze]

What about trying to find a show X working cocker. They sometimes come up on agilitynet.com as they can be great small agility dogs. A good amount of drive without being OTT

 

[Patchworkpony]

Thank you Blackcob and Buzzybea - SO helpful. I am very, very grateful for all this first hand info.

 

[Patchworkpony]

What about trying to find a show X working cocker. They sometimes come up on agilitynet.com as they can be great small agility dogs. A good amount of drive without being OTT

That's a very good idea but have never seen any advertised locally.

 

[Sandstone1]

am i the only one who was opening this thread to post on how nice it is to come home to dinner ready in the slow cooker?

No, I did that. Really need to get some new glasses! Glad it's not just me.

 

[Patchworkpony]

Most certainly you can


Alec.

You have give me hope. I would much rather have a working one but thought I was too old to give it what it needs. However I have spoken to our vet's head nurse who trains working spaniels as hearing dogs and she said they are keen to work, have less health problems than the show ones and provided they get plenty of mental stimulation they don't need to be walked for two hours a day. I have a paddock that is completely dog escape proof and it would be in there I could work it and train it to maybe do agility etc. There is a lovely dog friendly hotel on Dartmoor that has a gorgeous working spaniel who is very quiet and laid back. She was bred by a local gamekeeper from true working strain but I think she gets so much stimulation from guests and all the other dogs that it probably tires her out. She is beautifully behaved and very friendly. I had planned to kidnap her but she is just too loyal to her owner!

 

[Alec Swan]

am i the only one who was opening this thread to post on how nice it is to come home to dinner ready in the slow cooker?

It took me a minute, but no, it seems that you aren't!

You've brought a smile to a cold, windy and miserable afternoon! Thanks!

Alec.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

My older boy is a working lines springer. He's not mad, doesn't need hours of exercise and has been known to flag before me (in the days when we did epic walks). He is happy with half an hour running round the local big park. He then chills the rest of the day.

The youngsters can be a pain until they've been out. Today, Zak had about 20 minutes of retrieves with a ball and a dummy and a little play with the rabbit skin ball. Then he stared at the fish for an hour then played football-on his own-for ten minutes. He will not need taking out again. They have a very firm routine, walk, which is normally training and keeps their brains busy, then that's it, really. In good weather, there's lots of water retrieves and longer walks in the woods.

When it's time for more, we will go and get two workers, probably. I firmly believe it's getting them used to your routine. My three are currently asleep, one on my knee. Zak will want to play later, the others won't. As long as you get biddable types and the breeder can advise on their individual characters, I think you could go for working types. I chose the quiet one last time, superb dog.

Happy:

Equally happy:

 

[Patchworkpony]

My older boy is a working lines springer. He's not mad, doesn't need hours of exercise and has been known to flag before me (in the days when we did epic walks). He is happy with half an hour running round the local big park. He then chills the rest of the day.

The youngsters can be a pain until they've been out. Today, Zak had about 20 minutes of retrieves with a ball and a dummy and a little play with the rabbit skin ball. Then he stared at the fish for an hour then played football-on his own-for ten minutes. He will not need taking out again. They have a very firm routine, walk, which is normally training and keeps their brains busy, then that's it, really. In good weather, there's lots of water retrieves and longer walks in the woods.

When it's time for more, we will go and get two workers, probably. I firmly believe it's getting them used to your routine. My three are currently asleep, one on my knee. Zak will want to play later, the others won't. As long as you get biddable types and the breeder can advise on their individual characters, I think you could go for working types. I chose the quiet one last time, superb dog.

Happy:

Equally happy:

I always follow your threads with great interest as you seem to talk such common sense. I felt very cheered by this post as I am in my sixties and didn't want to be unfair to a dog but the truth is I prefer the working breed any day. How did you manage to choose a quiet dog - could you tell when it was a puppy? What did you look for in the litter?

 

[Clodagh]

I only see spaniels in the shooting field but the cockers do seem more manic and springers easier and calmer, bearing in mind they are all very excited to start with, I am hardly assessing them impartially.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I always follow your threads with great interest as you seem to talk such common sense. I felt very cheered by this post as I am in my sixties and didn't want to be unfair to a dog but the truth is I prefer the working breed any day. How did you manage to choose a quiet dog - could you tell when it was a puppy? What did you look for in the litter?

Thank you! Honestly, when I chose Bear, I picked up every boy and tried to cuddle the head into my collar bone and hold them there for a second. Bear and one other didn't object, so I looked at markings as a final decider. Bear had a better stripe and an all black nose. I think you can tell when ypu spend a bit of time with a litter, plus the breeder generally has a good idea of who's bold, who's not.

For all he's a calm dog, he's not boring. He's a replica of the older one, weirdly, my kind of dog, up for hours tramping round the wood, training walks, swimming or cuddles. The pup we got for my bil last year is very similar. He was from this website, no doubt Alec can tell you more and he might recommend Will Cluelee who is a springer/cocker breeder in Shropshire, I believe. http://gundogsdirect.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewAds&catId=13

These two are up for re-homing together just to throw a spanner in the works:
http://www.syessr.co.uk/index.php/forum/dogs-currently-in-our-care/664-luggs-buddy-dob-02-2008#4355

 

[blackcob]

Out of pure curiosity as I'm local I've just googled Will Cluelee and looked up the first stud dog listed on the website - 118 litters by a dog without any health tests, in a breed in which genetic diversity is rapidly vanishing, mostly due to the popular sire effect. It was enough of a minefield finding mum's dog, I had assumed it would be easier to find a sustainably bred working type, maybe I was wrong!

 

[Suzie86]

I have a show cocker and boy and 2 working springer girls.

I absolutely love him - he's not been so easy to train as the springers though, and he is stubborn, but I imagine it's more through him being our first dog and knowing what we were doing better with the other two!

He does also need regular haircuts which the girls don't need, and he keeps the weight on far easier so eats much less. He loves a good walk but he is lazy as anything around the house and loves nothing better than curling up on your lap!

He's not possessive at all, great with other dogs and children, but nervous of strangers, men in particular for no reason we know of! The people he knows and loves though he absolutely adores

 

[Suzie86]

And some pics....

 

[Alec Swan]

There's a great deal of misunderstanding and misleading information available, it seems. Never mind, we can always bash away with knowledge derived from assumptions!

The world of the Working Cocker, has never before had such a diversity of 'blood', the genetic lines are very well established, and there is a massive gene pool from which dogs are sourced. What's of interest and should be considered is that there are branches which appear now and then and from dogs which have won in trials, and when they are introduced in to the national pool, so they add yet more diversity.

Where to start? Here; Google Cocker Spaniel Database. For those who, and as I do, find that they can become swamped with facts and figures, the pedigrees of just about every working Cocker, of any worth, are listed. Perhaps those with Working Cockers would like to research the parentage of their own dogs, it can be illuminating.

Names do matter! The Cocker of today, all those which are succeeding come from a bitch line which has placed a stamp upon the modern dog; Wernffrwd. The bitch lines of just about every dog of worth will have Ci Twt, Dai Bach, Kathleen, Silk and Mai and others featuring strongly, and sometimes above and below at the same time! Line breeding, done with care, is the reason why we're as we are, and our Cockers are as healthy as they are.

None of those who would be considered to be from the top draw would consider themselves to be geneticists, but men like Peter Jones (Maesydderwen) and perhaps the most focused of breeders, Will Clullee (Poolgreen and his father before him, Peter Clulee of Larford), Timsgarry and Mallowdale, have through a passion, and perhaps unintentionally directed us to where we are today.

Another name for anyone who may wish to talk Cockers; Darren Skidmore. He bred the 2013-14 Cocker Championship winner Moel Famau Griffon and I believe the winning bitch from the previous year, also run by Will Clullee. Darren also trains to a very high standard and within 10 years will be leading the way, I'm almost certain. For those who would like to see some top class dogs, google Moel Famau Cockers. On that site you'll see a little bitch called Lily. I wanted to buy her when she was 7 months, but she wasn't for sale! My word but she was and still is a delight.

The world of the Working Cocker is in a healthy position. The gene pool is probably 10 times the size that it was 20 years ago, and strangely perhaps, I don't believe that any of those dogs which we see today have ever been health tested. Most of those who breed from top class stock ignore the directions suggested by the Kennel Club, and with good reason.

Also, to the best of my belief, there isn't one of those breeders and trainers listed who has a dog with a tail which is intact! Fad or fashion? Possibly, but more likely an understanding of a need.

There is in my view, a problem looming and it concerns me, but that can wait for another time.

Alec.

 

[blackcob]

On the contrary, the cocker spaniel gene pool is demonstrably shrinking. To be fair the same can be said for most pedigree dog breeds but cockers are among the more rapid and consistent; the effective population size is now less than 50 individuals.

Moelfamau Lilly has an inbreeding coefficient of 17.7%. To put that in perspective a mating of first cousins is 6.25%, father/daughter results in 25%. This figure means little in isolation but is significant when looking at the population as a whole. These are the numbers where populations start to become unsustainable due to loss of genetic diversity and proliferation of genetic disease.

Apologies to the OP for the derailment, I neither work nor breed cockers but have a growing interest in the health of pedigree dogs.

 

[Alec Swan]

On the contrary, the cocker spaniel gene pool is demonstrably shrinking. …….. ; the effective population size is now less than 50 individuals.

……..

Would you care to expand on that curious statement? I have neither knowledge of nor interest in Show bred Cockers and am wondering how, considering Working Cockers, how you've decided that there is an effective population of less than 50 individuals, or perhaps I've missed your point.

Alec.

 

[blackcob]

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/686540/spaniel__cocker_.pdf

Link to the recent population analysis published by the Kennel Club. There's one for each breed if any other saddos like me are interested, it's one of the more useful things the KC has done recently (I know, too little too late, etc. )

 

[Karran]

This is my worker. I was a bit reluctant to take her on, being based in London and a fulltime job and having heard horror stories about other spaniels being impossible to tire out.

But i'm so glad I gave her a chance, I dont know if we got lucky or not as I dont have her papers but she's a pretty chilled character (although with the odd moment!)
We do 90 minutes a day normally spread into 3 walks before and after work and she's quite happy with that. I also do a bit of trick training with her on the occasional day I can't make a walk and she comes to the yard 3x a week (in place of evening walks) and we recently started flyball training which she loves.
Her main issues is that she wants cuddles or tug games rather than a lot of walks but is quite happy to entertain herself if we're busy.

Been off for xmas so we have been upling the ante and doing 7-9 mile walks daily and she has been equally loving those so she can adapt although I think 90 mins is the minimum I can get away with to keep her happy.

Going... going....

Gone!

(Sorry - don't know how to change the rotation on my phone)

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Out of pure curiosity as I'm local I've just googled Will Cluelee and looked up the first stud dog listed on the website - 118 litters by a dog without any health tests, in a breed in which genetic diversity is rapidly vanishing, mostly due to the popular sire effect. It was enough of a minefield finding mum's dog, I had assumed it would be easier to find a sustainably bred working type, maybe I was wrong!

Interestingly, I have heard that working dogs are far less likely to be health tested, which did put me right off the bil's pup at first (not a Cluelee litter, I enquire do, they were expecting a l/w lot, wrong colour, shoot me!) particularly as he has Chewky Wolf in his lines, as do hundreds of other springers. Interestingly, although there is one example of line breeding in his five generation pedigree, there are also Irish imported dogs in there, no doubt to encourage the gene diversity. I saw both parents and was given a demonstration of their obedience/retrieving. Impressive stuff! I'd go there for my next two.

Thing is, people who work them wouldn't breed from them if they were showing issues down the years.

The wee pup (we kept him for the first few weeks til the bil was ready)

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

Moelfamau Lilly has an inbreeding coefficient of 17.7%. To put that in perspective a mating of first cousins is 6.25%, father/daughter results in 25%. This figure means little in isolation but is significant when looking at the population as a whole. These are the numbers where populations start to become unsustainable due to loss of genetic diversity and proliferation of genetic disease.

……...

Most of the line-bred working Cockers of today have an iBC in excess of (say) 17%, certainly all of mine have. It's a generally held view (certainly amongst Cocker breeders), that the system of researching an in-breeding coefficient and the results are an irrelevance. I have no idea how the iBC figures are arrived at, but considering the bitch Lily, there is no direct cousin lineage that I can see and yet she steps far beyond your figure of 6.25%.

The principles of line-breeding, from my understanding, are that the dog to be produced will have the grandsire on the sire side as the same dog as the great grandsire on the dam side. It isn't something which I truly understand, to be honest, and equally I'm not sure that it always works! Lily's G/Sire on her sire's side, Argyll Warrior is also her G-G/Sire on her dam's side. Argyll Warrior still lives and was still covering two years ago, but I used is son MF Griffon.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/686540/spaniel__cocker_.pdf

Link to the recent population analysis published by the Kennel Club. There's one for each breed if any other saddos like me are interested, it's one of the more useful things the KC has done recently (I know, too little too late, etc. )

Statistics? Whilst I'm prepared to believe that they may have their place, relying upon them is a mistake. When faced with the fact that the realities fly in the face of the theories, then their efficacy must be in serious doubt. I put this point to a lady from the KC and asked why, if the dogs being bred today were as successful as they are, what was the use of the figures when the evidence which is physical, contradicts the theory and she said that she didn't know!

An interest in the statistics of breeding isn't 'sad' at all, but I believe it to be a retrograde step to rely upon figures alone and ignore what's clearly visible. Just as our modern Thoroughbred racehorses originate from 5 stallions, so the modern Cocker and in modern times researches that the Wernffrwd bitches previously mentioned, appear in perhaps 90%(?) of our modern day breeding. Similarly, the Gwibernant dogs remain an influence, though whether they share the same breeding as the Wernffrwd dogs, I'm not sure.

It was a far smaller gene pool 20 years ago than we have today, and many of the top-flight dogs of today, if the truth be known, have pedigrees which are fraudulent, with both Setters and ESS being used in an attempt to improve on the stamina levels of our modern Cocker which is another reason to doubt 'statistics'.

Alec.

 

[Patchworkpony]

Wow - I love this forum. So many intelligent people with so many different opinions. Just for the record my world is native ponies and sadly 'line' breeding has done for so many original breed traits. I challenge, for instance, anyone to take one of the modern long pastern, boxy feet, over-excitable welsh cobs from the show ring and ride it over rough mountain tracks (peppered with bogs) in torrential rain, with a sick lamb balanced on the front of the saddle and get to the other side safely and calmly. AND this can be said of most of our native breeds who are all beset with behaviour problems and laminitis.

 

[Alec Swan]

The problem Pwp, is that as all of our 'breeds' regardless of type, have previously evolved, but for the last 50+(?) years they've stagnated, with standards being set which fail to take in to account, the vital word 'Type'. Consider the Scottish Deerhound, for instance; With a minuscule and ever diminishing gene pool, so the dogs themselves are nothing short of being pathetic representatives of those of perhaps 100 years ago. Would the Deerhound benefit from an infusion of Greyhound, and then when a bit of 'foreign' blood's been introduced, carefully select those puppies which will assist with the maintenance of a standard, so as a Breed it will progress? I think that it's the only way forward for any animal which is to be considered as a breed. It would be a move which would be rejected out of hand by most canine Breed Societies AND the KC, but if the focus is maintained whereby only the accepted is acceptable, then the decline will accelerate. The same applies to Welsh Cobs and just about every breed of horse, except perhaps for the Irish Draft, when to my relief, I see the odd inclusion of TB.

All our Breeds need to continue to evolve, and though mistakes will have been made, the Cocker, seems to me anyway, to be in good heart!

Alec.

 

[Patchworkpony]

The problem Pwp, is that as all of our 'breeds' regardless of type, have previously evolved, but for the last 50+(?) years they've stagnated, with standards being set which fail to take in to account, the vital word 'Type'. Consider the Scottish Deerhound, for instance; With a minuscule and ever diminishing gene pool, so the dogs themselves are nothing short of being pathetic representatives of those of perhaps 100 years ago. Would the Deerhound benefit from an infusion of Greyhound, and then when a bit of 'foreign' blood's been introduced, carefully select those puppies which will assist with the maintenance of a standard, so as a Breed it will progress? I think that it's the only way forward for any animal which is to be considered as a breed. It would be a move which would be rejected out of hand by most canine Breed Societies AND the KC, but if the focus is maintained whereby only the accepted is acceptable, then the decline will accelerate. The same applies to Welsh Cobs and just about every breed of horse, except perhaps for the Irish Draft, when to my relief, I see the odd inclusion of TB.

All our Breeds need to continue to evolve, and though mistakes will have been made, the Cocker, seems to me anyway, to be in good heart!

Alec.

Alec you are an intelligent, educated and forward thinking representative of dogs, working animals and the British countryside but sadly I have to say you are in the minority. So many 'new' country dwellers and dog owners just want the trappings with none of the real responsibility - you only have to look at the numbers of badly kept horses and out of control dogs to come to that conclusion. While there are people who simply want a pedigree dog and ignore how it came to be bred in the first place and are ignorant about the strong possibility of inherent health problems poor quality and interbred dogs will continue to be in the market - exactly the same as in the pony world.