Tellington-Jones...old school Parelli

MrsMistletoe said:
Anyone who thinks that the puny power a human can give with the odd smack with a hand or with a stick needs a lesson in physics (biology and chemistry, just for the full picture). Horses dish out far 'worse' and with far, far more power than we can muster.
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Oh NO! Not that old chestnut. How come a horse can feel a fly but a sting with a crop is of no consequence to them? Just because they are strong doesn't mean they are not very sensitive and unable to feel pain. :( They are good at not showing pain but that still doesn't mean they don't feel pain in a similar way we do.
 
amandap said:
Oh NO! Not that old chestnut. How come a horse can feel a fly but a sting with a crop is of no consequence to them? Just because they are strong doesn't mean they are not very sensitive and unable to feel pain. :( They are good at not showing pain but that still doesn't mean they don't feel pain in a similar way we do.
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I've had a smack off of a schooling whip. It doesn't hurt that bl00dy much! Jeez.
 
amandap said:
Oh NO! Not that old chestnut. How come a horse can feel a fly but a sting with a crop is of no consequence to them? Just because they are strong doesn't mean they are not very sensitive and unable to feel pain. :( They are good at not showing pain but that still doesn't mean they don't feel pain in a similar way we do.
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Old chestnut? No. But I do have a young chestnut, if that's any good :D

Didn't say nowt about them not feeling it. I hope they do feel it or what's the point? Not doing it for fun, doing it to point out that 'something' was wrong :D :D :D. I was comparing what force the average slap/smack from a human has as compared to that put out by a horse's hind feet for example.

Clear enough?
 
This thread has just pivoted off in so many directions!!

I like LTJ's TTouch, same as I like some aspects of Richard Maxwell and Kelly Marks... I absorb what I like and discard the rest. I strongly disagree with some things that natural horsemanship seems to stand for but each to their own. I certainly don't buy into the merchandising

I think a whip 'crack' can be blown out of proportion

I don't see a problem with giving a horse a little 'crack' with a crop, as long as it is needed and not done in malice. They get 10 times that off of their pals in the field
 
jesstickle said:
So out of interest how do you deal with your horse when it is being an ignorant pig and is trying to barge you out of the way or not listening to your leg?
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None of my horses are 'ignorant pigs'! :(
With one very bargy horse horse I had I went right back to the beginning, sorting out physical issues which included sore feet and belly. Provided a settled calm, quiet home, I used a control halter (dually in one case) to keep us both safe when leading until I retrained myself and had learned enough (with help) myself to retrain the horse better and with consistant boundries on the ground we made progess. In the saddle she is very light and responsive but I'd do the same, go back to basics and learn how to train effectively as well as sorting out possible emotional amnd physical issues.

I'm far from perfect, not hugely experienced as a rider and not a good rider and no way would I tackle a 'difficult' ridden horse in the saddle until we had a good rapport on the ground.

Mta. Most people ride with those short crops rather than schooling whips don't they?
I've grown out and am too old for the whips and leathers at home! lol
 
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amandap said:
None of my horses are 'ignorant pigs'! :(
With one very bargy horse horse I had I went right back to the beginning, sorting out physical issues which included sore feet and belly. Provided a settled calm, quiet home, I used a control halter (dually in one case) to keep us both safe when leading until I retrained myself and had learned enough (with help) myself to retrain the horse better and with consistant boundries on the ground we made progess. In the saddle she is very light and responsive but I'd do the same, go back to basics and learn how to train effectively as well as sorting out possible emotional amnd physical issues.

I'm far from perfect, not hugely experienced as a rider and not a good rider and no way would I tackle a 'difficult' ridden horse in the saddle until we had a good rapport on the ground.

Mta. Most people ride with those short crops rather than schooling whips don't they?
I've grown out and am too old for the whips and leathers at home! lol
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Well why don't I lend you my ignorant pig and you can try that with him if you like. You'll get to the wrong side of no where pretty quickly and ruin a perfectly nice young horse in the process. There is nothing wrong with him physically or mentally. He is just a big, young, fit horse who knows he is a lot bigger than you. Occasionally he does need a smack to remind him who is in charge or you wouldn't be in charge for more than five minutes. I think to say anyone who smack their horse is wrong is unfair if you've never had to deal with something that requires it. I think your idea of bargy and mine might be slightly different. This particular one will still sod off in a bridle if the whim takes him. A dually wouldn't even touch the sides!
 
amandap said:
I didn't see any mention of the RSPCA till your post. :D

Oh well, I hope all you whip crackers allow your horses to give you a good slap when they feel you are being unreasonable or not doing what you're told. :p :rolleyes:
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I agree, too many people whack and shout at their horses because they don't understand how to ask them:(
 
All those saying that it's cruel to have given him a slap, are you saying you have never hit a horse? It's totally acceptable to discipline if it's fair, timed and the session is carried on like it never happened afterwards. I work on a riding school, and if we allowed our horses an inch, it could result in a serious accident potentially involving a child, so they get away with nothing. As it is we have happy, healthy, well mannered horses who have a healthy respect for your space due to fair consistant discipline. Don't see the problem.
 
Cruel maybe depends on how hard you hit them, but it can certainly be unfair and not necessary. Although I wouldn't dream of whacking my horses as described by Op, my objection to what she did is the sneaky way she went about it when she clearly knew that the owner would not want her to. That was disrespectful and wrong.
I know how common it is for people to think it's OK to "crack their horse over the backside" or give it a "good whack" for being "ignorant" or "disrespectful". I find it really sad though that there are so many people who are so limited in their approach to horsemanship that they truly believe that horses operate like that, and that it's fair for a human to deliberately cause them pain for not doing as they are told (or maybe, just maybe, not understanding what's being asked).
 
jesstickle said:
Honestly. Please take him. He is a constant pain in the butt. I would love a holiday :D

He is a very nice ride FWIW :)
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I'm sure he is.
I don't understand why you would even consider sending him somewhere he would be ruined though. :confused:

I haven't used a crop to hit a horse since I was a child. I cannot say I have never hit a horse. :(
I do have a personal no hit rule though and have had for some years now.
 
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"PMSL - I see SO many posts over each year where people say 'my horse walks all over me' or 'he's dangerous to lead' or 'I can't ride him', and then ones where its 'OMG you HIT your horse - call the RSPCA!' The two go together."


No - they don't. You will never see a post from me saying "I can't ride him", "he walks all over me" or "he's dangerous to lead". However, I would never give my horses a crack, belt or good whack with a whip as is being described by so many here. I would use a whip as a guide, to touch the horse to reinforce an aid, but it never comes away from the horse to give it a "crack".
Is there anyone here who would beat a dog so hard that their whip "cracked"? I doubt it because a dog would respond verbally to the pain. Horses don't do that (unless the pain is extreme) and I sometimes wonder if that is why people think it's OK to treat them so harshly.
 
All you touchy feely types seem to forget that the horse went nicely for the OP which presumes that the horse does actually know what is wanted but it chooses to pee his owner off and get his own way. That is deliberate bad manners, no excuse for it and needed sorting but no doubt it will revert back to his old ways because the owner lets him and because he can unless the owner can change her ways and insist on discipline. Like the old riding school ponies, put a decent rider on top and they're cracking, put a novice on and they walk all over them - because they can; they're not daft at all, why work when you don't have to?

As others have said, obedience is needed at all times for safety of you both and the sooner it is an established fact, the sooner that will be. Presumably A, you used the Dually to instil discipline and to keep you both safe before the horse was retrained because you didn't want to be walked all over and it needed to learn that; if that had been done with the other horse, it might not have needed the OP to wake his ideas up a bit.
 
The point is that you don't have to beat a horse to be a good rider. Being able to "sort horses out" does not go hand in hand with being prepared to give them a crack with a whip. Good horsemen understand and practise this, in my opinion those who resort to physical extremes to get their point over to a horse actually show how limited their skills are. It's very common though, and until people take a bit more time to learn to ride really well and understand how little a horse can truly respond to, it will continue and it will continue to be admired.
The assumption being made by many here is that if you aren't prepared to give a horse a good whack with a whip from time to time you are novice, "touchy feely", and a "bad" ineffective rider. That's simply not the case.
I don't know what the bit about a Dually refers to, maybe I've missed something, personally I wouldn't use a Dually or any closing pressure halter (or closing pressure bridle).
 
jesstickle said:
Well why don't I lend you my ignorant pig and you can try that with him if you like. You'll get to the wrong side of no where pretty quickly and ruin a perfectly nice young horse in the process. There is nothing wrong with him physically or mentally. He is just a big, young, fit horse who knows he is a lot bigger than you. Occasionally he does need a smack to remind him who is in charge or you wouldn't be in charge for more than five minutes. I think to say anyone who smack their horse is wrong is unfair if you've never had to deal with something that requires it. I think your idea of bargy and mine might be slightly different. This particular one will still sod off in a bridle if the whim takes him. A dually wouldn't even touch the sides!
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Well said Jess. It's amazing how different your outlook could be if you've never had to deal with anything demanding (talking about older horses now, not youngsters) but if that is the case, just thank your stars that someone before you put the disciplinary work in for you otherwise you could be up the creek without a paddle as the original owner is.
 
amandap said:
... I used a control halter (dually in one case) to keep us both safe when leading until I retrained myself and had learned enough (with help) myself to retrain the horse better and with consistant boundries on the ground we made progess.
l
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Tinypony said:
I don't know what the bit about a Dually refers to, maybe I've missed something, personally I wouldn't use a Dually or any closing pressure halter (or closing pressure bridle).
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See the above quote from Amandap.
 
Fair enough, it's a busy thread LOL!

You are still assuming an awful lot about people you don't know however. Speaking for myself, I've had plenty of experience in dealing with demanding and sometimes dangerous older (and younger) horses. I used to believe what you believe about horses sometimes needing a whack, and I'm pleased to say that I've learnt a lot more since then. I'm still not a fluffy bunny, I just don't think it's fair to beat on horses, any more than it is fair to beat on a dog or cat.

Er, and on that note I'm going to ignore this thread, it's New Year's Day and I'm supposed to be chillin'.
 
Tinypony said:
I know how common it is for people to think it's OK to "crack their horse over the backside" or give it a "good whack" for being "ignorant" or "disrespectful". I find it really sad though that there are so many people who are so limited in their approach to horsemanship that they truly believe that horses operate like that, and that it's fair for a human to deliberately cause them pain for not doing as they are told (or maybe, just maybe, not understanding what's being asked).
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This is the point I was trying to make earlier. :)
 
Tinypony said:
Fair enough, it's a busy thread LOL!

I just don't think it's fair to beat on horses, any more than it is fair to beat on a dog or cat.

.
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I fail to see that one smack is anything like beating (your word) which implies continuous abuse. I am very much against the latter and would complain loudly against it by anyone - but I will use the former if it's needed when nothing milder does the trick.

Enjoy your chilling. :)
 
Tinypony said:
I find it really sad though that there are so many people who are so limited in their approach to horsemanship that they truly believe that horses operate like that, and that it's fair for a human to deliberately cause them pain for not doing as they are told (or maybe, just maybe, not understanding what's being asked).
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If they don't operate like that why do they 'talk' to each other by booting each other and biting each other?

I am not saying hit first. I am not saying a smack is EVER deserved for not understanding. I am saying that if your horse knows the rules, because you have taught him, and chooses to ignore them for whatever reason, and you give him fair warning which he also chooses to ignore, then a smack is probably well deserved.

Brown horse is not terrified of me and he is actually quite a nice person these days. We get on really quite well which is surprising as he doesn't like many people in life. I genuinely think he is much happier now he knows where the boundaries are and everyday is no longer a confusing power struggle. I could be completely delusional though.

He has only had one smack whilst I've been on board. Out hacking he decided something was horrifying and started to do half rears in the road. After being nice for a while, being soothing and patting lots whilst making loving cooing noises, I gave up as we were jumping about in the road and gave him a wallop. Problem solved and lots of pats followed. If that's wrong I apologise.

This is getting long and rambly now. I don't like constant smacks but I do think it can be a useful tool to have to hand when necessary. As usual, somewhere in the middle is my preferred route :)
 
jesstickle said:
If they don't operate like that why do they 'talk' to each other by booting each other and biting each other?
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They don't 'talk' to each other like that - what you're describing is the shouting when things don't go right. It's easy to notice the 'loud' stuff like kicking and biting, but there's a whole lot else going on in the way of communication that can be seen if one watches a bit closer. (Unless your horses are so grumpy they spend all their time booting each other!)
 
fburton said:
They don't 'talk' to each other like that - what you're describing is the shouting when things don't go right. It's easy to notice the 'loud' stuff like kicking and biting, but there's a whole lot else going on in the way of communication that can be seen if one watches a bit closer. (Unless your horses are so grumpy they spend all their time booting each other!)
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I didn't mean take it that literally. I'm not a moron. I am aware of the subtle body language and looks going on in between. My point is that at times they do clout each other. I don't always 'shout' at my horse but when things go wrong and I've asked nicely I don't feel bad about 'shouting' at them by giving them a smack. They do it to each other all the time.

I was only using the word talk to try and capture an idea. That's why it is in inverted commas!
 
Sam100 said:
Unfortunately you do appear to be a moron and there is nothing subtle about shouting and smacking your horses.
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I do beg your pardon. How extraordinarily rude.

Have you actually bothered to read anything I have said? We are talking about the subtleties of horses interacting with one another in the field. No one is actually shouting at their horses. We are talking about how horses shout at each other.
 
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