Tellington-Jones...old school Parelli

fburton said:
Okay, thanks for the clarification.


I think I understand your point. It's just that I feel that having to 'shout' is usually a sign that I haven't been clear enough with my 'quiet' signals and have inadvertently allowed things to 'go wrong' - i.e. my failing, not theirs. Of course, it may be necessary to use extreme physical measures in extreme situations where safety is threatened. That's entirely justifiable.
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I do agree with you. I don't often fall out with mine. I am only expressing my exasperation at people who think it is never ok to 'shout'. I would definitely rather avoid it and by and large my two know I am in charge and are quite polite.

And my brown horse unfortunately falls into the 'shouty' horse category. He is very bolshy on the ground and a real face puller. I try not to enter into fisty cuff situations with him but it does reach the point occasionally where I do have to give him a slap to get his attention. Other wise he tends to ignore me. I am pretty patient with him as I am aware that he was given no boundaries at all between the age of 2 and 4. However, he does now know, because I have taught him, how he should behave. Unfortunately because no one ever instilled any discipline at a young age (he was regularly allowed to pull away and charge from the field to the yard and also to rear up and wave his front feet around ) he is well aware of what physically he can do and how easily he can avoid anything he doesn't fancy. He is a big enough lad that when it all goes awry it does hurt ( I have had my finger dislocated this year and been kicked in the thigh) so I don't feel too bad for trying to avoid this happening, even if that does mean 'shouting' sometimes. It's self preservation.

I certainly don't beat him though. I promise :)
 
sleepingdragon10 said:
Can you not expand on that? Seems a little mean to leave us all in suspenders wondering which side of the fence you fall on:D
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It really annoys me when people start slating various methods of horse training and usually without any real justification. I have years of horse owning and riding experience under my belt but I'm still willing to learn and consider myself very open minded.

A lot of the negative comments re Parelli, Tellington touch, Monty Roberts or WHOEVER, seem to start with the cost of things and the silly equipment. Don't forget that every method of horse training has a price tag attached to it and also ' specialised ' equipment which you can buy into or not.

Correct and succesful horse training comes from gaining trust and understanding from your horse and the willingness to try different methods should the need arrise.

I do lots of ground work with my mare based on 'Parelli's' methods. Yes I have a rope headcollar, long lead rope and carrot stick but I didn't pay silly money for them and yes, they are the tools I have found best to do this type of ground work with. ( Incidently, when the physio paid her first visit to my mare after her KS op she remarked on how nice it was to have somebody who was able to control their horse so nicely and quietly in just a headcollar with out being dragged around all the time like alot of horses she see's)

However I also ride in a saddle and bridle and I really admire and watch the training methods of Kelly Marks.

We are all different and so are our horses and if I felt that a problem was best solved by using ' unconventional ' methods I would embrace it.

I am just an average rider who's horses go out and do a bit of everything. I have had many different types over the years, with some far more challanging than others. I am not up there in the results of horse and hound but what I do have is sensible and well balanced horses that have very few problems and all because I am open minded to different methods of training.
 
only_me said:
Jess, I think you and I are on the same wavelength.

Handling of a horse varies from person to person, and horse to horse. Bigger horses (especially young, fit ones!) will need "firmer" handling as they are too big to start barging etc. and could cause some real damage.
Not just applying to big horses, but more important that bigger horses have good ground manners.

Not all horses have read the text book!
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x posted with you but that is exactly it. You can read my explanation of why he is how he is, and why I am how I am with him. Big horses need to be good because other wise they break you!
 
TicTac said:
A lot of the negative comments re Parelli, Tellington touch, Monty Roberts or WHOEVER, seem to start with the cost of things and the silly equipment. Don't forget that every method of horse training has a price tag attached to it and also ' specialised ' equipment which you can buy into or not.
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Folks are free to spend their money as wisely (or foolishly) as they think fit. No, my gripe is with those who say what they do is "natural and without force or punishment" (for example) in one breath, and then turn around and do something which is anything but! They should at least be honest about their methods.
 
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i think it was just the arrogant tone of the OP that wound everyone up. It didn't seem like she cared to explain or show the owner why a smack (justified or not) might alter the horses behaviour and get it listening. It just sounds very two faced to accept the training toys and pretend to use them. If she had any strength of character she would have said 'listen i don't believe in these training methods, i'l get up on him and shw how a little discipline will make him listen'. that way the owner might have learned something, or opened her eyes to a different method.

As it is the Op just seemed to have enjoyed a smug moment, and the owner - who had asked her for advice - is none the wiser.
 
Oh, and to the people that think shouting is wrong - I would much rather shout at a horse than use a whip!

If they start to/are bucking, they get a firm, loud assertive NO which generally gets there attention.

Not hurting anyone, and reminding them who is boss!
 
jesstickle said:
True. But why did the owner ask her to get on then? I suspect the owner may have known the horse needed a firmer touch and OP is just being funny.

But if that isn't the case then yes, you're right and it is the owners horse to do with as they see fit. They should probably stop asking non NH people to get on it though!
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Perhaps the owner didn't know what she was going to do.Just thought she might be a better rider.She should have asked permission to smack him if she thought it necessary.If that was refused she could get off and walk away.I have a lovely NH trainer that helped me with one or two issues with my last horse.He wasn't nasty but bargy and a bit disrespectful.She sorted him, taught me how to do it, didn't smack but was VERY firm and black and white.It really wasn't all hearts and flowers.My very experienced horse driving instructor who breaks to drive all sorts/types/ages of horses, always gets beautiful manners in them and I have never heard him raise his voice, let alone a hand.He does have exceptional abilities though.
 
QR- imo the only thing the OP did wrong was not being upfront with the owner about what she was doing, i've got no issue with a horse getting a smack (or 2!) if needed when it is misbehaving.
 
eahotson said:
No it wasn't particularly aimed at you but the OP stated that she distracted the owner so that she could smack the horse, which does seem to sugest that she thought the owner would object.At the end of the day,its the owners horse.
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True, it is indeed the owner's horse, but the owner must know the way the OP rides. If I ask someone to get on any of my horses, I only ask those whos riding I know and agree/approve of - if whilst they are on board they feel the need to do something then that is up to them: I will have explained the horse's quirks, etc., e.g. smack Dizz hard on the bum and you'll end up in a hedge, so it's up to the rider as to what they believe the situation requires at any given time. If the OP was being sneaky, well, we're not all yet perfect ;) :D, it did get the desired result though, a horse working well, which has got to be better for all concerned :) :) :)
 
Sometimes a smack is warranted as a method of snapping attention back. But most people tend to smack as a first resort when it should be the last.

I have been a happy smacker in the past - now I know it was because I only understood half of what was going on with the horse. Am I proud of myself? No, not really. I am embarrased by how stupid I was.

If I had a horse who was big, bolshy and potentially dangerous - then I would consider if he needed a different tack if my own training were not working.

I would set my ego aside and see what the horse needed to avoid getting to the stage of needing to physically discipline him.

My big, bolshy horse is not a danger because I worked really hard at teaching him to repsect me. Occasionally he gets a smack across the chest with the leadrope - but it's not a daily occurance.

Arabs are rarely bolshy - but sometimes they can become a bit hysterical and need a (gentle) slap to focus them back to you.

However, I would certainly never smack someone else's horse behind their back. That is just wrong.
 
This thread is interesting in how it highlights different points of view and some gaps in communication, human to human as well as human to horse. Let alone horse to human.

Personally I don't find it acceptable to do anything to someone's horse without their express permission; when the owner is present and perfectly capable of giving or withholding that permission; except in cases of H&S/Welfare. This case did not seem to be an immediate H&S or welfare issue, so the owner should have been engaged in the proposed action and permission sought.

On a separate, but related note. I have had the good fortune to work with many people in several different countries. One thing I noted was the behaviour of the horses consistently reflected the behaviour of the person I was working with. So the person who really knew their stuff (and was incredibly quiet and patient) had consistently quiet and well behaved horses no matter their size, sex or other. Whereas the people who seemed to have a more 'it should do as I tell it' attitude seemed to have more problems handling horses. They also made more use of gadgets, whether it be control headcollars, cross ties etc and more physical/verbal aggression.

I am not saying this observation will ring true everywhere for everyone, but it has been a consistent finding for me.

And I have never found the need to slap an Arab, maybe the odd (hu)man though.

Also I have had to deal with a fair few bargy horses, some of whom have seriously injured their owners and so far I've not found the need to hit any of them either. The most I ever do is swear under my breath in faux Russian. (Too many Bond films as a kid).
 
I suspect what this thread shows it that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I bet all of us have perfectly happy, healthy horses who mind their manners most of the time. Variety is the spice of life eh?
 
As with all "schools" it is how it is interpreted by the user, not necessarily the original trainer.

Linda Tellington-Jones (grand-father I believe) used to train racehorses in Russia, with success. She and her husband ran a school for riding instructors and she has ridden and competed with success in all disciplines including show jumping and endurance. So there is very little she doesn't know about horses. She was quite prepared to give a naughty horse a tap on the nose with the handle of a whip, ONCE only to get the attention of the horse who was a complete madam. Linda is one of those people who is on the same wavelength as the horse, so generally doesn't have much of a problem getting them to behave as she wishes.

I saw her give a demo years ago and she was excellent. I still use the Tellington Touch moves with my horses, although I don't know if she still comes to the UK as she is getting older now and tends to concentrate more on dogs and cats.
 
I'm in agreement with what the OP did. If the methods employed by the owner of the horse weren't (and hadn't been for a while, reading between the lines) working, then a shift in tactics was needed.

Nowhere did she suggest beating the horse, she gave it two cracks with the whip, on separate incidents, and it worked. Often horses left to their own devices become set in unacceptable behaviour patterns that can only be broken with a sharp shock.

It's not SAFE to have a horse that makes the decisions as to where it will go, and when it will go. If two smacks within a minute (and that's all it was) have stopped a period of bad behaviour and refusal to do what is asked, then that suggests to me that horse is now able to understand what is wanted, and that he needs to comply. The issue was walking forward, as far as I remember (from so many pages ago, but I stand to be corrected on that) - basic manners in any horse.

As far as the owner not knowing - I don't imagine for a nanosecond that the owner had never seen the OP on a horse, or had no idea what she would do. If she asked for help, she must at some point have seen the OP riding correctively and strongly in the past. I think the 'when the owner wasn't looking' phrase was probably a tongue in cheek attempt at humour.

I spent a fair proportion of my life rehabbing spoiled horses, and a swiftly delivered reprimand or encouragement with a whip is far simpler for the horse to understand than the assorted human-geared paraphernalia of magic sticks, carrot sticks and assorted ropes.

Educating a horse is about removing his options so that he follows the path the trainer/rider chooses and is rewarded. Ineffective horsemanship allowing him several responses to the same question merely leaves him confused.

Oh, and as for the fly reference - that's an inbuilt automatic response to jolt landing or crawling flies off skin, it's not remotely related to the pain horses feel, it's a reflex reaction.
 
Have to agree with Lucy Prior's comments on this.

Having just read through the entire thread which seems to have expanded at a fair rate, it appears that the bolshy, bargy horses who don't take a lot of notice and need to be given a sharp crack with a whip, belong to what appear to be the bolshy, bargy owners who demand instant obiedience.

If the horse is badly behaved and not very well trained, its down to the trainer, not the horse. Poor trainers have poorly trained horses.
 
My goodness Andy, are you saying that maybe the bolshy bargy horses need a crack of the whip because their bolshy bargy owners need a crack of the whip as well??
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AndySpooner said:
Having just read through the entire thread which seems to have expanded at a fair rate, it appears that the bolshy, bargy horses who don't take a lot of notice and need to be given a sharp crack with a whip, belong to what appear to be the bolshy, bargy owners who demand instant obiedience.

If the horse is badly behaved and not very well trained, its down to the trainer, not the horse. Poor trainers have poorly trained horses.
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Is that so? Nothing like generalising hey? I have already explained that I inherited mine the way he is. Is that my fault? No it is not.

Perhaps people who are strict have higher standards, perhaps they are more likely to take on a 'problem' horse.
 
Must admit, when my two geldings come full pelt towards me, I don't stand there whispering WHOA!! I YELL and guess what they slow down. The owner shouldn't have asked the Op to ride her horse as it's the owners problem, she's the one thats ruined it (maybe she wants to sell on, and cann't because of bad behaviour) your guess as good as mine.;);););)
 
Echo Bravo said:
Must admit, when my two geldings come full pelt towards me, I don't stand there whispering WHOA!! I YELL and guess what they slow down. The owner shouldn't have asked the Op to ride her horse as it's the owners problem, she's the one thats ruined it (maybe she wants to sell on, and cann't because of bad behaviour) your guess as good as mine.;);););)
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S'great isn't it. Apparently because some muppet set no boundaries with a 2yo sports horse colt and now I have to try and fix it, I am labelled a bolshy, bargy owner.
 
jesstickle said:
Is that so? Nothing like generalising hey? I have already explained that I inherited mine the way he is. Is that my fault? No it is not.

Perhaps people who are strict have higher standards, perhaps they are more likely to take on a 'problem' horse.
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If you took on a horse from people who had no success by striking the horse, it clearly didn't work, so why carry on doing the same, it wont work for you either. No it's not your fault that he came to you like that, but it is your fault he's still like it.

I have worked with one or two problematic horses, the trouble is they start behaving and then you need another one.
 
Everyone needs boundaries, specially animals, but I guess we humans looking at some of the replies. A sharp slap or raised voice, can save somebody being injuried down the line, if a horse or dog, has not been taught bounderies in their lives, no wonder about project horses and dogs being dumped:(:(:(:(
 
AndySpooner said:
If you took on a horse from people who had no success by striking the horse, it clearly didn't work, so why carry on doing the same, it wont work for you either. No it's not your fault that he came to you like that, but it is your fault he's still like it.

I have worked with one or two problematic horses, the trouble is they start behaving and then you need another one.
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No one struck it. They let it walk all over them. As was the case the OP was originally outlining. You really ought to read things more carefully if you're going to be offensive and judgemental.

When I got it, it didn't tie up, it wouldn't go in it's stable and it used to set it's neck and run off about three times a week. It was a nuisance for the farrier and couldn't be clipped. More or less all these problems are things of the past.

With me he has also learned to be a useful ridden horse. Where before no one would go near him he is now a yard pet.

I fail to see how my methods are not working. Because he is a naturally bolshy horse it will always be his favourite form of evasion. I can't change his personality. No one can do that.
 
Echo Bravo said:
Excellant reply Jesstickle. More power to your elbow as they say.
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I think I might give up now though. How ever carefully we have all tried to explain that none of us are beating our horses and use a smack over the arse as a last resort it doesn't seem to go in.

I feel like someone might call the RSPCA on me any time now.

Just for my own information though....

Anti-smackers; if a horse kicks you or properly bites you what do you do about it? Because that to me is a definite smack on the bum and I am genuinely, in a non combative way, very interested to know your take on it.
 
jesstickle said:
No one struck it. They let it walk all over them. As was the case the OP was originally outlining. You really ought to read things more carefully if you're going to be offensive and judgemental.

When I got it, it didn't tie up, it wouldn't go in it's stable and it used to set it's neck and run off about three times a week. It was a nuisance for the farrier and couldn't be clipped. More or less all these problems are things of the past.

With me he has also learned to be a useful ridden horse. Where before no one would go near him he is now a yard pet.

I fail to see how my methods are not working. Because he is a naturally bolshy horse it will always be his favourite form of evasion. I can't change his personality. No one can do that.
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I don't recall you outlineing the progress you have made with your horse earlier inthe thread, when you took up the batton, or should I say crop, to defend people hitting horses, even one's they don't own.

You will be aware, as you read things so carefully, that I am quite happy for people to train horses in whatever style they choose, so long as they are effective trainers, and do not resort to punishment to cover their own inability to get the desired response.

If you see his natural 'bolshiness' as still a problem then obviously you will be attempting to find a strategy to turn this to your advantage and ultimately a benfit for you and your horse rather than merely accepting this personality trait and giving him an exasperated clout.

Please try not to be offended, as I like many others simply say things as I see them.
 
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Dont let anyone one get you down, that way they win, sort of, as for the RSPCA tell them to swing their hook, as they are high profile at the moment as they need the cash:p:p:p. You sound a very sensble person, who knows how to treat and train a horse, nobody goes round beating up their horses,but sometimes a sharp slap at the right time,with the right command will bring a young horse, who starts to strike out with his forelegs, works wonders, they have to be taught manners from the word go. Ask any Farrier,who have to either trim or shoe bad mannered ponies and horses.:)
 
AndySpooner said:
I don't recall you outlineing the progress you have made with your horse earlier inthe thread, when you took up the batton, or should I say crop, to defend people hitting horses, even one's they don't own.

You will be aware, as you read things so carefully, that I am quite happy for people to train horses in whatever style they choose, so long as they are effective trainers, and do not resort to punishment to cover their own inability to get the desired response.

If you see his natural 'bolshiness' as still a problem then obviously you will be attempting to find a strategy to turn this to your advantage and ultimately a benfit for you and your horse rather than merely accepting this peronality trait and giving him an exasperated clout.

Please try not to be offended, as I like many others simply say things as I see them.
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I didn't outline his progress. I was referring to your inability to read my post about how he got away with murder in his early life.

Perhaps you ought to adjust your 'holier than thou' tone if you don't wish people to get offended.

If you make statements like 'it is your fault' I'm afraid people are going to take umbridge. You may think you sound oh so very smart but I personally think you sound rude. And if you read my previous posts you will see that I am not one to take offence easily either.
 
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