Tellington-Jones...old school Parelli

Trakehner said:
Jeeze....the owner was going to be hurt by her horse and could hardly hack in the fields near the yard. She was the type of owner who would flap her hands and be saying, "No, no, no, please don't, no, no...etc. etc. etc." all the while using various magikal tarantula touches etc.

Cracking a horse twice on the butt with a dressage whip isn't beating or abusing a horse. Neither is using a bit or spurs.
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but bitching about a woman who's obviously struggling is fine?

there's no way you could go to her and give her a demonstration of why your method works? at least then she might improve or learn something. You remind me of the worst kind of people you find on yards, thank god i'm on a nice yard now. Where if i was doing something wrong and asked for help people would kindly and gently discuss the problem with me.
 
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paddi22 said:
but bitching about a woman who's obviously struggling is fine?

there's no way you could go to her and give her a demonstration of why your method works? at least then she might improve or learn something. You remind me of the worst kind of people you find on yards, thank god i'm on a nice yard now. Where if i was doing something wrong and asked for help people would kindly and gently discuss the problem with me.
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Exactly!
I fear, however, that arrogance is clouding the OP's ability to see this point:o

A good horseman/woman is quite happy to discuss their methods, why they may work for a particular horse, and how their methods may improve the horses general way of going.

Bitching about someone who is struggling just to big yourself up is fairly low.:(
 
Trakehner said:
A little prick on St. T.J. sure brought out the minions...Parelli has the same types of sycophants who will tolerate no comments about their trainer.
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:confused::confused: Lol! Has there been any actual discussion about either on this thread? There has been the odd comment about TJ but this thread seems in my understanding to have been about human attitude in the main! :confused:
 
Roast_Spud said:
Smacking a misbehaving horse - fine.

Doing it behind the owner's back in a deceitful way - not so fine.

Coming on an internet forum and basically b!tching about the owner and how useless they are in order to make oneself look good - really not fine at all.

However an excellent reminder of one of the reasons I no longer deal with horses in my leisure time - not the horses, but the awful people! So thanks for that. You've saved me some cash.
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Well said.
 
Trakehner said:
Jeeze....the owner was going to be hurt by her horse and could hardly hack in the fields near the yard. She was the type of owner who would flap her hands and be saying, "No, no, no, please don't, no, no...etc. etc. etc." all the while using various magikal tarantula touches etc.

Cracking a horse twice on the butt with a dressage whip isn't beating or abusing a horse. Neither is using a bit or spurs.

How many trainers ride a horse more forward and demanding than the owners do? Trainers usually don't want the owners around when they're first dealing with a real problem horse..the owners may not want to see the possible discipline used...not abuse, but some fairly sharp and instant training usually only used once or twice.
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And do you really think that your one session with a smack or two, is really going to keep the owner safe? :rolleyes:

If you, or a trainer, wish to make serious lasting changes in the way a horse behaves when ridden, it really would be advantageous to let the owner know exactly what your tactics were.

Your attitude continues to shock and sadden me. It was people with this attitude who ruined a beautiful, but sensitive little cob I knew. :(
 
jesstickle said:
Perhaps people who are strict have higher standards, perhaps they are more likely to take on a 'problem' horse.
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Horses are happier with clear, consistent boundaries - no doubt about that. One gauge of someone's horsemanship is how well they teach and maintain those boundaries. If the lesson is taught well, the horse knows exactly where the boundaries lie and will hardly ever step over them. It should take very little in the way of correction to maintain boundaries (usually hardly noticeable at all) even with horses that 'test' them. However, I have a theory that horses are much more likely to 'test' boundaries that are not strictly maintained.

When owners whack, jerk or shout at their horses a lot, however, I'm afraid it is invariably the owner who is at fault, not the horse. Whacks, jerks and shouts should be rare indeed, although I wouldn't condemn these actions in every single case.

jesstickle said:
if a horse kicks you or properly bites you what do you do about it? Because that to me is a definite smack on the bum and I am genuinely, in a non combative way, very interested to know your take on it.
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First of all, a kick or bite should be an extremely rare event if you are paying attention to any horses near you. That's because a horse will almost always give warning signs before the event. One doesn't have eyes on the back of one's head, of course, so better to avoid putting oneself in situations where you can be struck from behind if at all possible - though accidents do happen, of course. It is possible to be relaxed and alert/aware at the same time.

If you do see a bite coming, there is usually time to take evasive action, and maybe punitive action too. Letting a horse that is biting run into an elbow or knee can be very effective - partly because the punisher is delivered instantly and partly because the horse perceives the blow as being as a direct result of his own action, rather than coming from you as a person (so he doesn't see it as an aggressive act). Otherwise, I wouldn't rule out a well-timed thwack on the chest if I was carrying a whip. Ditto on the backside for an attempted kick. Or a loud "Oi!" if I thought that would help (see below).

However (a big however) - I would want to know why the horse was behaving aggressively towards me, and work on addressing the underlying problem. There are lots of possible reasons for aggression, and identifying the cause is essential in my opinion. This would apply both to a horse I didn't know and to one that I did. (So I would try to resist shouting "Oi!" at a horse whose aggression stemmed from fear.)

To return to the original question of what I would do if a horse actually connected with a kick or bite - well, that would depend on how long it took me to recover from the shock. If that was more than a few seconds after the event, I would have to nurse my bruise and pride and chalk it up to experience. There is a window of opportunity for delivering consequences (both good and bad) to a horse's actions outside which there is no value in doing so, or it may be even worse than useless. That's because horse's have such short attention spans compared to us. The longer one waits the more likely it is that the horse is doing and thinking about something else, in which case you end up punishing that and not the original misdeed. That's what John Lyon's "3 second rule" is all about. I've seen people punishing horses so long after the event that there is no chance of the beast understanding what it is being punished for - though the same people will typically insist that the horse "knows he has been naughty". This is simply poor horsemanship and it merely results in upset and confused horses.

Phew, longer answer than I intended - hope it answers your question!
 
fburton said:
First of all, a kick or bite should be an extremely rare event if you are paying attention to any horses near you. That's because a horse will almost always give warning signs before the event. One doesn't have eyes on the back of one's head, of course, so better to avoid putting oneself in situations where you can be struck from behind if at all possible - though accidents do happen, of course. It is possible to be relaxed and alert/aware at the same time.
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I really agree with this 100%. As well as being aware and reading horses earlier 'language'/warnings we also should look at changing routines etc. to reduce the likelihood of being kicked and bitten. For eg. if one horse is grumpy because the horse three feet away is annoying or a threat to them, one of them can be moved and if tied, tied further apart ect. etc.
 
That's odd! My browser shows there is a page 17 in this thread but whenever I click on it it just shows page 16 again.

ETA: Ah, now it doesn't!
 
Yea, I jumped in to defend L T-J because I have actually met her. Also attending a TT clinic with Sara Fisher completely turned round my difficult relationship with a new horse who did threaten to kick and bite every time I went in the stable - the first handling problems I had ever had and which hadn't been solved by "conventional" means.

I also totally agree with fburton.
 
fburton said:
Horses are happier with clear, consistent boundaries - no doubt about that. One gauge of someone's horsemanship is how well they teach and maintain those boundaries. If the lesson is taught well, the horse knows exactly where the boundaries lie and will hardly ever step over them. It should take very little in the way of correction to maintain boundaries (usually hardly noticeable at all) even with horses that 'test' them. However, I have a theory that horses are much more likely to 'test' boundaries that are not strictly maintained.

When owners whack, jerk or shout at their horses a lot, however, I'm afraid it is invariably the owner who is at fault, not the horse. Whacks, jerks and shouts should be rare indeed, although I wouldn't condemn these actions in every single case.


First of all, a kick or bite should be an extremely rare event if you are paying attention to any horses near you. That's because a horse will almost always give warning signs before the event. One doesn't have eyes on the back of one's head, of course, so better to avoid putting oneself in situations where you can be struck from behind if at all possible - though accidents do happen, of course. It is possible to be relaxed and alert/aware at the same time.

If you do see a bite coming, there is usually time to take evasive action, and maybe punitive action too. Letting a horse that is biting run into an elbow or knee can be very effective - partly because the punisher is delivered instantly and partly because the horse perceives the blow as being as a direct result of his own action, rather than coming from you as a person (so he doesn't see it as an aggressive act). Otherwise, I wouldn't rule out a well-timed thwack on the chest if I was carrying a whip. Ditto on the backside for an attempted kick. Or a loud "Oi!" if I thought that would help (see below).

However (a big however) - I would want to know why the horse was behaving aggressively towards me, and work on addressing the underlying problem. There are lots of possible reasons for aggression, and identifying the cause is essential in my opinion. This would apply both to a horse I didn't know and to one that I did. (So I would try to resist shouting "Oi!" at a horse whose aggression stemmed from fear.)

To return to the original question of what I would do if a horse actually connected with a kick or bite - well, that would depend on how long it took me to recover from the shock. If that was more than a few seconds after the event, I would have to nurse my bruise and pride and chalk it up to experience. There is a window of opportunity for delivering consequences (both good and bad) to a horse's actions outside which there is no value in doing so, or it may be even worse than useless. That's because horse's have such short attention spans compared to us. The longer one waits the more likely it is that the horse is doing and thinking about something else, in which case you end up punishing that and not the original misdeed. That's what John Lyon's "3 second rule" is all about. I've seen people punishing horses so long after the event that there is no chance of the beast understanding what it is being punished for - though the same people will typically insist that the horse "knows he has been naughty". This is simply poor horsemanship and it merely results in upset and confused horses.

Phew, longer answer than I intended - hope it answers your question!
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Thank you. A very considered and sensible answer to my question. I appreciate you taking the time to write that down.

And for the record, more or less exactly what I would have said (and you said you might smack it, shock horror :p )
 
paddi22 said:
thats funny, i was just going to post the same thing.. i think you started 17!
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Is this the time to be smug and tell you I've only got a Page 5 because I have more posts per page; it makes life so much easier especially when they're long threads. :p:D

Go into your user CP, edit options and scroll down; somewhere it will say about how many posts per page you want, change it to 40 (I think), save the changes and Bob's your uncle; simples. :D
 
fburton said:
You're welcome, Jesstickle - I enjoyed taking the time to set out my thoughts.


So does being a "smacker of last resort" put me in the anti-smacking camp or not? :D
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I'm not sure where it puts you! Probably somewhere in the middle like me and most people who commented :D
 
Lol fburton! I do think a severe bite would probably make me break my no hit rule in that instant. :p

I'll have to think up grades for 'whip crackers' aka Doris Days. :D

I am laughing at myself here btw!
 
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hey fburton. I did something very bad today. I shouted at my filly :o

She cantered up behind me and threw her front legs out to try and instigate play and I turned round and shouted 'no' as loud as I could.

Do I look like a horse? Umm. No I do not. Do I want to play like a horse with an over exuberant 2yo. No I do not!

You can all beat me now if you like :)
 
Broadly agree with fburton.

Although on the single time a rescue horse and single time a rescue dog tried to bite me I found myself biting them........... on their shoulder both times.

I am not sure who was most surprised, me or them. But neither tried to bite me again and we had great lives together. (and IMO they both had justifications for their actions, not totally convinced about mine though)

Now much older if a horse tries to bite my very broad backside while I am under them they usually find themselves chewing on my elbow which is not nearly so rewarding and they desist. And as fburton commented; the consequence is entirely in their control because I make no attempt to connect my elbow to their muzzle. So they end up self limiting.

Now please can someone advise me of a similarly suitable technique for managing the OH?

Please please please.........

(and no a schooling whip won't do, you know what men are like........!)
 
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