Tension in Dressage

[blitznbobs]

Take 2 famous Grand Prix horses - a tense one .. for example Glocks Undercover or Totalis and a chilled one... lets choose Valegro who is famously chilled - see video of 11 yo riding him... which is more rideable? Which could you put ANY rider on and see that rider survive and maybe get a tune... I know I’d be giggling as I swung into Valegro’s saddle and be shitting myself on the glocks horses... at the end of the day this is what dressage is about - how rideable is your horse and a backward horse is more fixable by more people than a tense one...

 

[Bernster]

This thread is taking a very odd turn 😔

 

[blitznbobs]

yeah totally agree. one of my little mares is starting her dressage career and shows tension. Later on i ended up writing for the judge who marked us afterwards and she advised that for lower unaffiliated levels I would be better off not even trying to ride the moves correctly on her (ie to miss markers if the horse needs more times between transition etc) and make it as easy and fun for her as possible. She said do anything needed to get the horse happy and relaxed, even if it looks awful and loses marks. She said she sees so many horses going up the levels, and if they start tense at prelim and solve that, then the tense compounds as they move up the levels.

I really took this on board as I had three years of tense comments on another horse. So for the next test i did i took her in and literally played around the arena, chatting to her, scratching her and not worrying about how we looked, and she actually got better marks than when i tried to 'ride' her correctly!

I watched Carl Hester ride a young horse at a competition many years ago, I was sat with a friend and couldn’t believe when he started to do what was obviously an adapted freestyle with long diagonals of half pass - and no complex movements at all ... I remember discussing it and saying things like he could’ve made that more complex etc etc... when that horse went to the olympics and I was him there 4 years later I finally understood how right Carl was...

 

[Melodra]

OP, if your horse is tense in the arena why don't you view that making him comply with your request could also be seen as forceful?
Why do you only see force on the other side of your equation?

Because he isn't being forced. I am sitting quietly and he is listening, but just as he is when he is turned out when excited, he comes up in his frame and arches his neck which manifests as tension in dressage. He's excited but not uncomfortable and not being forced with a strong hand or leg.

 

[Melodra]

What was it you were hoping to achieve from this post OP? Clearly no-one here has responded in the way you wanted them too. Is everybody that has posted wrong? Probably not, which should start to make you think that perhaps tension (from excitement or not) is a major major fault in dressage less so than a horse behind the leg. HOWEVER if a rider is being abusive to the horse then that is a different story. Your posts seem to have changed the other competitors horses from being lazy and kind of on the forehand to basically being abused around an arena.

What are you talking about? I have agreed with many posts and stated multiple times that I agree with comments on tension? Have you even read what I've said? For the record there are a number of posts which state that both are issues to be corrected, which is the position I agree with. There are also a number of comments which CONCUR WITH THOSE OF THE JUDGE that a novice horse displaying excitement and resulting tension will settle with experience. I used the term "kicking" in my OP and I have not changed that stance.

 

[shortstuff99]

What are you talking about? I have agreed with many posts and stated multiple times that I agree with comments on tension? Have you even read what I've said? For the record there are a number of posts which state that both are issues to be corrected, which is the position I agree with. There are also a number of comments which CONCUR WITH THOSE OF THE JUDGE that a novice horse displaying excitement and resulting tension will settle with experience. I used the term "kicking" in my OP and I have not changed that stance.

Because you bring up time and time again how your horse had 'good' tension and couldn't understand how these other horses were getting better scores than you. When people have explained you still mention that you don't agree! I have read every post that you have put on this thread.

 

[Melodra]

I never once used the term “good tension” You’ve just made that up.

 

[Melodra]

Because you bring up time and time again how your horse had 'good' tension and couldn't understand how these other horses were getting better scores than you. When people have explained you still mention that you don't agree! I have read every post that you have put on this thread.

Tbh this is what I mean about bullying.

I ask a question about tension in an excited horse

 

[J_sarahd]

Tbh this is what I mean about bullying.

I ask a question about tension in an excited horse

Do you know the meaning of bullying?

 

[paddi22]

To be fair the requirements of dressage don't sit alongside kicking and forcing a horse do they? Kind of my point really.

he comes up in his frame and arches his neck which manifests as tension in dressage. He's excited but not uncomfortable and not being forced with a strong hand or leg.

if he comes up in his frame and aches his neck then he isn't flowing through his body properly. It takes focused training to get a horse to come up correctly in a higher frame, when hes strong enough for self carriage and to lift and power through his back. If its a prelim horse starting out, then he's not coming up in his frame correctly, because he won't be physically strong enough to. When you say he is arching his neck, then he is locking tension in it and thats what is losing you marks. Where is his head at when he arches his neck?

From your posts you seem to feel kicking is cruel on some level? But then you mention riding a tense horse up into a contact, which could be more damaging mentally and physically to them in the long run.

From bringing horses through prelim classes I'd see kickers as
- novice riders with very ineffective weak legs who look like they are moving a lot but aren't actually landing much force on the horses side
- nervy riders who just default into flapping when they get in the ring because they are so nervous
- riders on more backward horses who might shut down unexpectedly when they get in the ring, and then you need to up the aids to get them forward. in which case its just using the aid that is effective at the time.
You have no knowledge of the history of horse and riders in the ring. No-one wants to go in booting a horse around. Or if they do its 1% of riders who are just terrible.

Using prelim classes as an example is misleading for this discussion as the horses, the rider or both as a combo are starting on their journey. You don't see kickers by the time they get to novice, which would show its an issue with lower level riders/horses and gets solved as people go up the grades. the tension DOESN'T get solved though, which is why its a bigger base issue.

 

[Melodra]

Because you bring up time and time again how your horse had 'good' tension and couldn't understand how these other horses were getting better scores than you. When people have explained you still mention that you don't agree! I have read every post that you have put on this thread.

Posted too early.

I asked a question about tension in an over excited horse vs kicking a horse around an arena.

The response from some, not ALL, was that a horse being kicked and leaning on the rider as per my OP produces a harmonious picture and was acceptable because it denoted calm.

I politely disagreed....the rest is all there.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

The way of going and way of rider communication is in the eye of the judge and anyone else watching. Riders do not always perceive their faults, nor how their animals are truly going.
Often people will look at their scores, particularly at starting out levels and get upset as their opinion differs from what others see.

OP, you are flaming a lot of knowledgeable folk on here, many have posted a great amount of very helpful advice and reading this thread is quite unpleasant in the way it's unfolding.
That said, I was giggling earlier at the thought of Cortez and MP in a clique, brilliant, I'd be happy to join them! 🤣

 

[Melodra]

if he comes up in his frame and aches his neck then he isn't flowing through his body properly. It takes focused training to get a horse to come up correctly in a higher frame, when hes strong enough for self carriage and to lift and power through his back. If its a prelim horse starting out, then he's not coming up in his frame correctly, because he won't be physically strong enough to. When you say he is arching his neck, then he is locking tension in it and thats what is losing you marks. Where is his head at when he arches his neck?

From your posts you seem to feel kicking is cruel on some level? But then you mention riding a tense horse up into a contact, which could be more damaging mentally and physically to them in the long run.

From bringing horses through prelim classes I'd see kickers as
- novice riders with very ineffective weak legs who look like they are moving a lot but aren't actually landing much force on the horses side
- nervy riders who just default into flapping when they get in the ring because they are so nervous
- riders on more backward horses who might shut down unexpectedly when they get in the ring, and then you need to up the aids to get them forward. in which case its just using the aid that is effective at the time.
You have no knowledge of the history of horse and riders in the ring. No-one wants to go in booting a horse around. Or if they do its 1% of riders who are just terrible.

Using prelim classes as an example is misleading for this discussion as the horses, the rider or both as a combo are starting on their journey. You don't see kickers by the time they get to novice, which would show its an issue with lower level riders/horses and gets solved as people go up the grades. the tension DOESN'T get solved though, which is why its a bigger base issue.

He tightens his frame, ridden and and free in the paddock when excited. The head is up but arched but he will also lengthen his stride (that is his natural way of moving) The judge’s comments on a couple of the movements where marked down as tense were needs to be ridden forward into the contact, so..... I am only ever soft with my hands and legs with him, there is no force involved. If you are kicking a horse you are making it uncomfortable for him and so using force as opposed to encouraging him, which I feel, yes, is unethical.

 

[Melodra]

The way of going and way of rider communication is in the eye of the judge and anyone else watching. Riders do not always perceive their faults, nor how their animals are truly going.
Often people will look at their scores, particularly at starting out levels and get upset as their opinion differs from what others see.

OP, you are flaming a lot of knowledgeable folk on here, many have posted a great amount of very helpful advice and reading this thread is quite unpleasant in the way it's unfolding.
That said, I was giggling earlier at the thought of Cortez and MP in a clique, brilliant, I'd be happy to join them! 🤣

Already seen this on another thread

 

[Melodra]

Already seen this on another thread

Further will repeat AGAIN. I agreed with the judge’s comments, the collectives were actually rather lovely. Jesus Christ.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

OP, your posting style is very similar to a n other

Further will repeat AGAIN. I agreed with the judge’s comments, the collectives were actually rather lovely. Jesus Christ.

What are you trying to achieve then?

 

[Melodra]

OP, your posting style is very similar to a n other



What are you trying to achieve then?

A discussion about tension in an inexperienced excited horse vs horses being kicked and forced. As per my OP. I find it surprising that kicking seen as so acceptable by so many people. It’s the first time I’ve come across it so prolifically.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

A discussion about tension in an inexperienced excited horse vs horses being kicked and forced. As per my OP. I find it surprising that kicking seen as so acceptable by so many people. It’s the first time I’ve come across it so prolifically.

Well, there you go eh?

Perception is a very good word I find

 

[paddi22]

A discussion about tension in an inexperienced excited horse vs horses being kicked and forced. As per my OP. I find it surprising that kicking seen as so acceptable by so many people. It’s the first time I’ve come across it so prolifically.

But you seem to be implying the dressage world is full of people using full force booting and kicking around the ring. At prelim the most you see is people flapping weakly or nagging out of nerves or habit. or the odd more experienced rider who realises they need to increase their aids the odd time to get a backwards or shut down horse to keep the pace its been asked for. I just don't know shows where people are battering horses around a dressage ring in a cruel way?

 

[Cortez]

A discussion about tension in an inexperienced excited horse vs horses being kicked and forced. As per my OP. I find it surprising that kicking seen as so acceptable by so many people. It’s the first time I’ve come across it so prolifically.

And I will repeat: NO ONE has said that kicking is a desirable way of riding, but they have said, repeatedly, that it is less disagreeable than presenting a tense horse in the dressage arena.

 

[paddi22]

I think its an interesting debate, and I love reading others comments on it, especially as its an issue i worked to overcome for years!

 

[Melodra]

But you seem to be implying the dressage world is full of people using full force booting and kicking around the ring. At prelim the most you see is people flapping weakly or nagging out of nerves or habit. or the odd more experienced rider who realises they need to increase their aids the odd time to get a backwards or shut down horse to keep the pace its been asked for. I just don't know shows where people are battering horses around a dressage ring in a cruel way?

No, not at all. As I said, not seen it so prolifically before. This isn’t my first/second actual dressage test...only on this horse and goes against everything I have been taught.

 

[paddi22]

Just to stick my head above the parapet here. I am interested your comment about the arched neck. I had a very similar ones years ago. Here he is at prelim level at his second dressage test. He sounds like your horse and would arch when excited and was very forward. We regularly got beaten by kickalong cobs, and I can totally see why when I look at the pics. His neck is holding tension, he is totally overbent and not accepting the contact, he is hollow over his back, he's not working through his back or pushing from behind correctly.

He was all happy and excited on the day and delighted with life, but if I had pushed him on to harder stuff with only that as his base training it would have been a disaster, he has no base strength. When I look at that picture I see a horse that would have serious issues with his training at that time. I ended up totally having to redo him from the start again

 

[Melodra]

Just to stick my head above the parapet here. I am interested your comment about the arched neck. I had a very similar ones years ago. Here he is at prelim level at his second dressage test. He sounds like your horse and would arch when excited and was very forward. We regularly got beaten by kickalong cobs, and I can totally see why when I look at the pics. His neck is holding tension, he is totally overbent and not accepting the contact, he is hollow over his back, he's not working through his back or pushing from behind correctly.

He was all happy and excited on the day and delighted with life, but if I had pushed him on to harder stuff with only that as his base training it would have been a disaster, he has no base strength. When I look at that picture I see a horse that would have serious issues with his training at that time. I ended up totally having to redo him from the start again

Can see that, but then again I think we have discussed that this was his second event, the horse is relaxed at home and was much improved second time out. The judge certainly didn’t think he needed to be retrained, just that he would relax in time with experience.

Again her comment was that he was displaying very promising work so obviously didn’t think there were huge underlying and fundamental issues, nor did the judge in his first test who more or less said the same.

 

[shortstuff99]

Tbh this is what I mean about bullying.

I ask a question about tension in an excited horse

This is not me bullying you, I stated something that I believed you were doing, that is not bullying. As regards to the 'good tension' this is your words taken from one of your posts

"This was only his second test. The horse listened and was absolutely obedient and the tension came from over exuberance rather than discomfort or distress" which is surely you saying is 'good' tension rather than 'bad' tension, can you see where I got that impression from?

 

[Melodra]

This is not me bullying you, I stated something that I believed you were doing, that is not bullying. As regards to the 'good tension' this is your words taken from one of your posts

"This was only his second test. The horse listened and was absolutely obedient and the tension came from over exuberance rather than discomfort or distress" which is surely you saying is 'good' tension rather than 'bad' tension, can you see where I got that impression from?

No. I think you deliberately and intentionally misquoted me to try to back up your argument. It was a smear.

There is a difference between a horse that excited and one that is distressed. It’s very clear from my post. I didn’t at any stage state that the former was “good tension”; only that there was a distinction.

 

[DabDab]

I think its an interesting debate, and I love reading others comments on it, especially as its an issue i worked to overcome for years!

I agree, I think there have been some really interesting comments made. It's a while since I rode a tense horse in anything resembling dressage, but think it is probably going to be the key thing to work on for the young mare when we start getting out and about. I have the opposite problem to most people generally...I tend to take excitable horses and manage to make them horizontal without really trying.

 

[shortstuff99]

No. I think you deliberately and intentionally misquoted me to try to back up your argument. It was a smear.

There is a difference between a horse that excited and one that is distressed. It’s very clear from my post. I didn’t at any stage state that the former was “good tension”; only that there was a distinction.

No I haven't misquoted you I used your actual words and that is not what a smear is either. And what is clear from your posts is you think that tension caused by an excitable horse should be seen as better than a horse being kicked or tense from pain.

ETA: as you questioned in your op

"but she marked him pretty much on a level with how he was marked on his first time out, and seemed a little bit harsh. That said, I know it is swings and roundabouts with different judges, However, when I looked at the results he was placed below horses that were literally kicked around the arena and on their forehands and lazy but obviously calmer than my boy.

So, I guess my question is...is a horse showing a bit of tension due to excitement, but clearly enjoying himself and totally obedient and responsive, demonstrating quality work really so much worse than a horse that is more relaxed but being booted around the arena, not wanting to be there, not enjoying its work?"

I'm not personally attacking you, I'm forming my opinion literally on the things YOU have said.

 

[Cortez]

I agree, I think there have been some really interesting comments made. It's a while since I rode a tense horse in anything resembling dressage, but think it is probably going to be the key thing to work on for the young mare when we start getting out and about. I have the opposite problem to most people generally...I tend to take excitable horses and manage to make them horizontal without really trying.

This is a very good affect to have - you should be in much demand!

 

[Bernster]

We must be reading different posts then as I’ve NOT read anything like what you describe OP. People have generally explained why the kick a longs might get scored the same or slightly higher, but I havent read anything that suggests that the kicking you describe is widely viewed as acceptable in the sense of the end game. Everyone seems to acknowledge that it happens at certain stages but it’s not the desired outcome.

Although why I am launching myself into this car crash of a thread I’ll never know...but I can’t seem to stop myself (even if it does mean I’m also at risk of getting baited).