Testing, and discipline. What side of the fence are you on?

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Cerries

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Hey everyone!

I hope you're all really well!

I'm curious :)

Since owing our pony (and now, horse), I've been on such a wonderful learning curve. Every day brings a new challenge, and an opportunity to learn something.

I'm so lucky to have a wonderful support network around me, and I learn so much from them.

But one thing that really seems to be divided amongst all of my horsey friends is their method of discipling their horse.

There seems to be a complete spectrum - everything from talking to their horse gently, to giving them a wallop.

I'm trying to find my own way - but I'm curious to hear what your discipline method is, and what makes it so successful?

(I know this is a topic that might provoke strong opinions - but I post this with a completely non-judgemental and respectful mindset :) )
 
I tend to adjust my method to the horse and the behaviour. Sometimes a dig sorts it out, sometimes a growl, sometimes a gentle word and horse put back to where it should be for example. My biggest learning curve recently is having a new horse whose a mare ... Always said I wouldnt get a mare but anyway, shes lovely but she is so different to handle from my gelding and I certainly go about them differently. I tell him what to do, I can actually bully him if I need to (I dont, he's an angel, lol) but with her ... well we tend to talk about things and discuss how we will resolve them, its great, I love it :)
 
I am happy to do whatever is relevant to the situation. If you handle your horse well usually you won’t have much need for negative reinforcement - I only have to say “ah-ah!” and that’s generally enough for my horses to understand they have done wrong and stop but not to scare them enough that they start wanting to get away from me. I am happy to give a short, sharp reprimand when required, e.g. in the past if I’ve been kicked out at then I will dish out a wallop across the bottom with immediate effect.

What I cannot stand is smacking the face or people who reprimand too long after the incident has taken place (totally pointless as the horse will have no association) or reprimand multiple times. I was on a livery with a woman (term used loosely) who owned a Shetland and it used to escape the field so she would bring it all the way back to the yard yanking on it’s headcollar and then shove it in the stable and close the top door to “teach him a lesson”
 
I think the situation for every time you need to reprimand your horse is different therefore each method will be different. If my horse is pawing the floor with impatience I'm not going to yell at him and slap him, that just makes him more anxious - so a gentle "ah" suffices. If he is bowling me over to get to his dinner he will get my hand waved at him or a lead rope swung around in front of me. I don't think cracking a horse ever achieves anything other than a sore hand but if I was in genuine danger from a horse I would be trying it - but that is only a hypothetical.

My horse used to be very bolshy and strong to lead - he's now on the end of a rope behind me and if he gets his shoulder in front of me I stop and he immediately walks back a step or two - this took many many walks and stops and back ups and sometimes my rope had to swing but I am no longer in danger of being pulled over by my half tonne animal who has no idea where his feet are.
 
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IMO discipline is an anthropomorphism - horses don't know or understand the rules they are expected to conform to. They can however learn boundaries and mine have learned that. My enforcing them depends on how important the boundary is - if they invade my space I move them back, if the push on me I will move them away. If however they threaten to bite or kick I will make myself large and noisy and they pretty soon learn not to cross that line.
You will doubtless get a whole spectrum of answers on here!
 
JillA said:
IMO discipline is an anthropomorphism - horses don't know or understand the rules they are expected to conform to. They can however learn boundaries and mine have learned that. My enforcing them depends on how important the boundary is - if they invade my space I move them back, if the push on me I will move them away. If however they threaten to bite or kick I will make myself large and noisy and they pretty soon learn not to cross that line.
You will doubtless get a whole spectrum of answers on here!
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I like your answer :)
 
JillA said:
IMO discipline is an anthropomorphism - horses don't know or understand the rules they are expected to conform to. They can however learn boundaries and mine have learned that. My enforcing them depends on how important the boundary is - if they invade my space I move them back, if the push on me I will move them away. If however they threaten to bite or kick I will make myself large and noisy and they pretty soon learn not to cross that line.
You will doubtless get a whole spectrum of answers on here!
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Agree ^^

Response to boundary pushing will depend on the nature of the problem.
One thing I try to never do is react in anger as that is totally unfair on the horse, tends to lead to a disproportionate and illogical response to whatever it did, and doesn't teach it anything (other than that humans are confusing).
Often in training, the horse just makes a mistake when guessing what you have asked for, and that doesn't deserve *any* kind of 'discipline', just a quiet correction or repetition of the question.
 
Hmm interesting. I wonder about this too and sometimes worry I'm too strong and other times not enough! F is the first horse Ive ever really needed to do this with. He's young, mouthy and doesn't always respect your space so he's needed careful handling. He's def better but forgets his manners at times especially when food is involved.

Like the others, I tend to start softly, but will be more forceful if the behaviour merits it. I don't beat him but I have on occasion given him a firm slap or shove. Mostly it's an Oi, a hand wave to get him to step back, or a firm but gentle shove if he's getting in my face.
 
equi said:
My horse used to be very bolshy and strong to lead - he's now on the end of a rope behind me and if he gets his shoulder in front of me I stop and he immediately walks back a step or two - this took many many walks and stops and back ups and sometimes my rope had to swing but I am no longer in danger of being pulled over by my half tonne animal who has no idea where his feet are.
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equi - how did you go about teaching this. I have been doing lots of reading into the feet moving idea, that whoever can make the other move his feet is the boss, to put it simply. And I have a Highland mare who can be strong and bolshy when she feels like it (although she is not with me at the moment so I have not been able to put my ideas in practice) and I am interested in how you did this.
 
I have no hesitation at all in giving a horse a whack if it is required, they are too big, too fast and too dangerous to allow to be rude. Funnily enough it has been very many years since that requirement has been necessary with my own horses. When I was a young horse trainer, an old horse trainer gave me some very good "rules", if you need to use a whip: never in anger, never more than 3 seconds after the event, never more than three taps and never on the head.
 
Cortez said:
I have no hesitation at all in giving a horse a whack if it is required, they are too big, too fast and too dangerous to allow to be rude. Funnily enough it has been very many years since that requirement has been necessary with my own horses. When I was a young horse trainer, an old horse trainer gave me some very good "rules", if you need to use a whip: never in anger, never more than 3 seconds after the event, never more than three taps and never on the head.
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This. I rarely have to do more than growl at my horses if they step out of line but if needs be, they WILL get a wallop. I am absolute with their discipline but am always very consistent. The result is that I have horses that I would trust with anyone as their behaviour is generally impeccable as they know exactly where the line is. I cannot stand watching other peoples horses push, nudge or generally be rude as I can see how it can so easily become dangerous.
 
Agree on different approaches for different horses (and ponies) but for me the thing is consistency, which I'm good at on the ground but sometimes less so when riding but getting much better. Also, it's as important to let the horse know when they have done the right thing. The new sect C is very quick to push boundaries and I have no problem in giving him a sharp elbow and a growl if he gets in my space, but equally he gets praised when he's polite. Neither of my horses is stupid, they do know what is expected of them but I have no doubt that if I let them do something one day and then tell them not to do it the next day I'd start to have problems. One of my favourite horsey sayings is "every time you interact with a horse, you are training it".
 
Like others have mentioned, it's very rare I have to 'discipline' any of my horses. Most minor things I deal with by training in the desired behaviour in a positive way - e.g. if horse wants bridle off after riding, it won't happen until it stops trying to rub it's ears on me! They soon learn with nothing more than a disapproving noise.

That said, if a horse kicks me (other than in fear, which is a different problem), I kick it back. Hard, and immediately.
 
If you have to keep walloping or reprimanding your horse then your timing or training is faulty. Consistent handling and never allowing a small misdemeanour to escalate because your timing is such, that you correct it immediately, is how you have a lovely horse. We have a lot of horses here. They nearly all come here being badly behaved problems. Some are more determined than others. The worst one I had I had from a yearling and it took til she was a 5yr old for me to think yep, she's trained. Others takes a few days and they never challenge you again.

I firmly believe that handling problems translate to ridden problems too and apparently small problems are actually often the key to sorting out bigger ones.

For instance my new horse will not always stand tied up. He also will not always stand when mounted. I feel unless he stands tied up in any situation it's almost pointless thinking he will magically stand under saddle. With this I would say pick your battles. At the moment I work daily on him standing tied up without any distractions such as food or company. It's a lot easier to be consistent at home than say at a clinic as when if it's your turn you don't want to waste time finishing having a battle about standing still so you end up training the horse it can get away with it.

One thing always to remember. You are always training your horse. Every single interaction is training. The question is are you training it for good, or for bad behaviour!

You shouldn't have to shout tho. If the training is consistent and there, then the horse is a delight to own.
 
It's a difficult one, as others have said a lot will depend on the circumstances, I'm probably on the soft side regarding discipline.
I have two horses but late last year I bought a cob and she was a little bargy, manners weren't as good as my others but to be fair she didn't know what was expected of her she also tried on one occasion to bite me, luckily my jacket was loose so she didn't get me. Though she gestured to bite fairly regularly but not for a while. This would always be a verbal reprimand and if I could move her back immediately I did but if I couldn't do it right away it was just verbal.
She also had a tendency to try and kick when I did her back feet. This did result in a smack on the leg and a very stern no.
I decided to 'crack down' and not let her get away with anything however I soon realised that treating her like a cob and telling her what to do wasn't the way to go, I now 'ask' if I don't get the required response I ask more firmly and what a difference, feet picking could take 10 minutes as she wouldn't move her foot and despite elbows and shoulders being used to create leverage or the back feet being aimed at me. She isn't perfect but is 99%, still puts her ears back but less and less no feigned biting and a lot less bargy, she is still a work in progress but I now treat her like she is perfectly behaved until she doesn't I don't assume she is going to be difficult and I think this is reflected in my body language which it turn helps.

Sorry I rambled a bit but hope it's of some use.
 
JillA said:
IMO discipline is an anthropomorphism - horses don't know or understand the rules they are expected to conform to. They can however learn boundaries and mine have learned that. My enforcing them depends on how important the boundary is - if they invade my space I move them back, if the push on me I will move them away. If however they threaten to bite or kick I will make myself large and noisy and they pretty soon learn not to cross that line.
You will doubtless get a whole spectrum of answers on here!
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This is exactly what I do and I have to say it works on most. It is a universal language that most horses seem to understand.

BUT the key I think is understanding it isn't a "one fits all" solution and sometimes you have to adapt in order for the horse to understand what you want.

And yes, a with bargey, bolshey horse, or in a situation where it is warrented I won't hesitate to give them a wack if they have pushed the boundry. Horses are too big and too powerful to be throwing their weight around.
 
hlb93 said:
equi - how did you go about teaching this. I have been doing lots of reading into the feet moving idea, that whoever can make the other move his feet is the boss, to put it simply. And I have a Highland mare who can be strong and bolshy when she feels like it (although she is not with me at the moment so I have not been able to put my ideas in practice) and I am interested in how you did this.
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I started where he was not bolshy aka the arena and got him learning to back up to pressure coupled with "back" word. When he was doing that I walked him where he was bolshy and if he got too forward I stopped and asked him to go back, if he refused he got turned around and walked right back to the start (aka the paddock gate - but he wanted in for dinner so this was not going to make him pull to the field) and started again. He didn't get anywhere with his bad behaviour. I of course had to know when he was realllllly trying to be good and then reward him with forward motion - he wasn't on the end of the rope but he was stopping as soon as I did etc and that was when to Reward. Did this every single day and the more he got used to it the less time we had to do it. Now he's as I said a dope on a rope but I throw a stop now and then to remind him his duties and he obliges.
 
What you have to remember when you are setting and enforcing boundaries is consistency - you can't expect a horse to remember that your space is barred from him today and open to him tomorrow but a little bit open to him the next day. That way lies confusion and anxiety
 
Cortez said:
I have no hesitation at all in giving a horse a whack if it is required, they are too big, too fast and too dangerous to allow to be rude. Funnily enough it has been very many years since that requirement has been necessary with my own horses. When I was a young horse trainer, an old horse trainer gave me some very good "rules", if you need to use a whip: never in anger, never more than 3 seconds after the event, never more than three taps and never on the head.
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This. But my oldies are so used to me know that a mere look or a growl is enough if they are getting a bit naughty (there's no point getting old if you don't get crafty!) The little mini that was with me last year got a fair few whacks - when he came to me he had a lovely habit of biting people and lunging at their faces to get his own way, worked with his previous owners, didn't wash with me, although he did dent my confidence for a while, it's not nice having feet waving in your face at eye level. We worked through it though, he learnt that I wasn't a push over and I'm sure P told him that I was a far nicer human if I wasn't being presented with feet and teeth all the time!
 
Cortez said:
I have no hesitation at all in giving a horse a whack if it is required, they are too big, too fast and too dangerous to allow to be rude. Funnily enough it has been very many years since that requirement has been necessary with my own horses. When I was a young horse trainer, an old horse trainer gave me some very good "rules", if you need to use a whip: never in anger, never more than 3 seconds after the event, never more than three taps and never on the head.
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This. As little as possible as much as necessary. Must respect my space. And if going to discipline in any way, do it within three seconds.

I travel and compete and hack alone, I need easy, polite, sensible horses!

I find it harder as my horses are both competition animals and pets, and after a tough day at work the boundaries can get blurry on personal space and treats. But I have stable adult gelding horses, who are well adjusted and have a bit more leeway.

You can generally judge an owner on whether their horses lead, tie up, load, travel, farrier, clip and get hosed off sensibly or not. Anyone can have a horse in training / with past abuse / or not yet learnt. But when someone has several horses that don't have basic manners or a series of successive horses, then it's clear where the issue lies.
 
FfionWinnie said:
I firmly believe that handling problems translate to ridden problems too and apparently small problems are actually often the key to sorting out bigger ones.

For instance my new horse will not always stand tied up. He also will not always stand when mounted. I feel unless he stands tied up in any situation it's almost pointless thinking he will magically stand under saddle. With this I would say pick your battles. At the moment I work daily on him standing tied up without any distractions such as food or company. It's a lot easier to be consistent at home than say at a clinic as when if it's your turn you don't want to waste time finishing having a battle about standing still so you end up training the horse it can get away with it.
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This too, one of mine is occasionally unsettled at home, shouting, box walking, fidgeting tied up. Frantic eyes. I handle him calmly, mount him and give him something to think about ridden, and he settles. It would be pointless to get in to a standing still battle on these occasions his brain isn't there. It doesn't happen very often, and I am not sure what triggers it. Same horse competes medium and is fine to travel and compete and stands on lorry / attached to lorry calmly.
 
I think it largely depends on the horse in question. My old girl will accept discipline and will 'understand' being told off and will develop her behaviour from this. My younger mare has been a bit more difficult to get to where she is now, she respects being praised when she does the right thing rather than being reprimanded. I have absolutely no problem giving a horse a whack when it steps out of line, I can't abide ill manners. I can't remember the last time I had to discipline either of my girls, I think its only fair to make it abundantly clear to them what is expected behaviour wise and they're both at a point where we can move around each other and they understand where to be at which time of any process.
 
My boy was always mannerly to lead. One day I was about to lead him out of the stable and he barged past me squishing me against the door jamb. I managed to stop him and turned him round and asked him to go back in the stable. He was having none of it. I stood with him facing the doorway and did not allow him to go anywhere else. After a few minutes he gave in. I led him in and out several times and then took him to his field. Never did he try that again as he gained nothing. In fairness to him I think he was just too eager to get out and forgot his manners and meant no harm. Could have been a precedent for future behavour however. I do think that every horse is individual and tact is often called for rather than a showdown. The knack is to know when a horse is frightened or being bloody minded.
 
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hlb93 said:
equi - how did you go about teaching this. I have been doing lots of reading into the feet moving idea, that whoever can make the other move his feet is the boss, to put it simply. And I have a Highland mare who can be strong and bolshy when she feels like it (although she is not with me at the moment so I have not been able to put my ideas in practice) and I am interested in how you did this.
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Im not sure you can teach it as such. Its more of a judgement thing. Problem is, we all think our judgement is right, yet we all differ in our tolerance levels. I too gauge each and every situation differently, and sometimes its tricky working out if the horse it being plain daft, or is genuinely worried. Sometimes it takes some gentle but firm coaxing, other times a jolly good telling ! It does depend on the seriousness of the problem and whether it is putting anyone at risk. Im afraid I have walloped my horse a few times as she was just being ridiculous, on the other hand, my last horse was incredibly sensitive and I don't ever remember reprimanding him - you just couldn't as it would have terrified him.
 
Totally depends on the horse, I totally ignore any bad behaviour from my Anglo because any form of smacking/raising of the voice etc will just make him come back fighting, being ignored is more of a punishment to him but my young cob needs a firm hand because if you give her an inch she will take a mile and walk all over you and my mare is well she's never put a foot wrong so I imagine a very slight raising of the voice would have her all teary eyed and apologetic
 
It depends on the horse - cobbo gets distraught if he even sees a lunge whip - so a bit of firm gentle handling for him - mare is a tough nut and doesn't understand anything but a good whack...
 
depends on the horse.......................the very sweet and gentle old man and the headshy poppet TB barely need more than a light check on the lead rope or a firm "brrrpt no" and any more would not be fair as it would upset the former and scare the latter.

the 5yo stallion needs a firmer hand, literally and vocally as although super for a stallion he will push the boundary that bit harder and the correction actually needs to be strong enough that it registers as such...............its all too easy for a young entire to think its just a silly game and he actually has to realise mum is peed off!
 
I don't know about disciplining them really. I just go off the principle that despite appearances, horses want to please us (horrid, ungrateful creatures that we generally are) and they want to do the 'right' thing, so it's my job to give them clear instructions. That's it :) I don't think it'd work on a stallion who wanted my innards on a plate, but for the vast majority of horses I meet every day, they're quite happy to do as asked so long as they understand. For everything else, I try my best not to give them a reason to bite/kick/barge me in the first place, and that seems to work fine too. Horses are pretty clear about what they're feeling.
 
Totally depends on the horse and the circumstances. At the moment the 5 we have in work vary from 2 slightly nervy ponies (a Welsh sort and an Arab sort) who have only been handled for a year (now aged 7), to a very thick skinned and naturally slow HW cob to a young Welsh stallion that has been intensively handled all his life. Respond to the cob as you do the nervy Welsh sort and you would be walking along at crawling speed, the other way round and you'd never catch him again. Raise your voice at the Arab and he starts shaking, there would never be a reason to raise a hand. Raise a hand to a young stallion and it's a game unless you can reach behind the shoulder but let him push you around at your peril. So it varies from ignoring to a knee to the back half of the belly. The only recently handled ones need thoughtful planning for things like farrier and clipping as everything is still very new for them but they're the two that have the naturally polite way about them that blood horses often have! They're all a pleasure to deal with, easy to take out and about on your own or in company and trustworthy to be worked on when you're the only one at the yard, a novice could learn with any of them. Obviously being a driving yard they all stand well and everyone steps back as you go in the stable.
 
There's a line, the line is always consistent, you cross it there will be a consequence. What that consequence is totally depends on he horse!
 
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