THAT french 'trainer'

What I don't get is why NH is constantly trying to speak "horse" and use body language...

What ever happened to good old fashioned HORSEMANSHIP. You know, the sensible, human type?

How did we all manage 100 years ago before Buck or Monty?
 
tallyho! said:
What I don't get is why NH is constantly trying to speak "horse" and use body language...

What ever happened to good old fashioned HORSEMANSHIP. You know, the sensible, human type?

How did we all manage 100 years ago before Buck or Monty?
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NH isn't about running around trying to speak horse, lol. I don't know what Monty is about, but he is as mad as a box of frogs, and I wouldn't call him NH.

In fact NH is just plain old fashioned horsemanship, plain and simple.
 
Pale Rider said:
In fact NH is just plain old fashioned horsemanship, plain and simple.
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Doesn't it seek to distinguish itself from 'conventional' or 'traditional' horsemanship? If so, in what way(s) does it differ (bearing in mind that 'conventional' in this country is quite different from 'traditional' in America)?
 
fburton said:
Doesn't it seek to distinguish itself from 'conventional' or 'traditional' horsemanship? If so, in what way(s) does it differ (bearing in mind that 'conventional' in this country is quite different from 'traditional' in America)?
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Yes, exactly!
 
fburton said:
Doesn't it seek to distinguish itself from 'conventional' or 'traditional' horsemanship? If so, in what way(s) does it differ (bearing in mind that 'conventional' in this country is quite different from 'traditional' in America)?
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I'd call conventional in the UK militaristic, particularly that promoted by the Pony Club Or BHS.
 
Pale Rider said:
I'd call conventional in the UK militaristic, particularly that promoted by the Pony Club Or BHS.
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It might have been at one point based on management systems that where used by the military but there systems will have developed along the systems that where used when horses where a mode of transport.
I'm interested by your use of the world militaristic why do chose that word?
 
I just don't get it. yes horses kick and bite each other but IME its rare in an established herd/when there's enough resources (including space). Most equine body language is very subtle, which is why these numpties miss it. This woman is a bully, because she is scared.

as for our traditional equine heritage, there's nothing wrong with it (good and bad exist everywhere)-a system of handling/management (largely based on the military its true, pony club and BHS systems originated took their lead from that tradition) designed so that horses and humans (sometimes not familiar with each other) can work safely together and know whats expected. Of course these things evolve (feeding etc) but often the baby is thrown out with the bathwater.

I would take the traditional UK/European way of starting a horse over the US breaking of one any day (although some of the best riding I have ever seen has been in the US) which is where this NH cr*p comes from.
 
Goldenstar said:
It might have been at one point based on management systems that where used by the military but there systems will have developed along the systems that where used when horses where a mode of transport.
I'm interested by your use of the world militaristic why do chose that word?
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The 14-18 War virtually wiped out horsemen and horses in the UK, in an effort to regenerate equestrianism, the Pony Club originated in England in 1928 and was led by army officers trained at the Cavalry School at Weedon. Therefore, with the rise in equestrianism as a sport and leisure activity between the wars and the founding of the BHS and Pony Club all with a strong military influence. Training and management of horses as prescribed by these organizations, reflects the military background.
 
fburton said:
Doesn't it seek to distinguish itself from 'conventional' or 'traditional' horsemanship? If so, in what way(s) does it differ (bearing in mind that 'conventional' in this country is quite different from 'traditional' in America)?
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My understanding of NH is that it looks to the horse for answers through observation of responses to it's environment and training and that training should incorporate an understanding of the horses natural behaviours.

I realize this is not what many and even I see as described as NH and my thinking has changed over the years. My understanding is very personal to me and perhaps not the correct/accepted one. I am constantly surprised how some NH practitioners manage their horses as to me it's an holistic horsemanship.

I must say I don't really have a clue what 'traditional' British horsemanship actually is... anyone enlighten me?

Both to me usually/often involve being the boss over the horse to varying degree. However there there seems to be a huge variety depending on individual owners within this. I don't think these labels are especially useful and are confusing and incite argument and then the need for defense. I have many times felt a strong need to defend things I wouldn't do myself. lol :rolleyes: I'm trying to get out of that habit though.
 
Did you read what Peace Equestrian Park had to say in the "Comments"? Classic dominance paradigm, with all the right phrases, including the obligatory "establish respect". Something else I've noticed... almost without exception, it's people with this viewpoint who mention the "1200lb horse". Why is that?? (And why 1200lb and not 1100 or 1300lb? ) I have a theory that it is to do with a fear of the big, scary beast that horses undoubtedly can be, but also the idea that, because we are so much punier than them, we are justified in embiggening ourselves to match their power including by brute, physical means. The fact that horses are not only powerful but also "by gentleness confined" (to borrow the words from Ronald Duncan's lovely poem) seems to go unremarked. I could be totally wrong, of course!
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lol, I'm one of those petite ladies, and according to last week's weight calculation, my 17hh weighs 1,400lbs :D

I have often sat watching my horse, and thinking about "respect". I've reached this conclusion. I have respect for a police officer, and I have respect for the Dalai Lama. I have respect for the police officer because of what they can do to me - pretty much none of it nice, although in principle they may act to defend me if I am in a sticky situation. I have respect for the Dalai Lama because of who he is. I know, in a panic situation, I could most likely knock over the poor Dalai Lama, trample all over him and make my escape - but that I would be much less able to do this to the average police officer. However, I also know that despite the Dalai Lama being a frail old gent, I would be more likely to stop and see if I could help him in the emergency than I would the police officer :)

I would like to believe that my horses do not see me as a police officer, and while I am also fairly convinced that they don't see me as the Dalai Lama, their actions around me suggest that they have learned - without being explictly taught - that I like it when they walk around me rather than through me :) So, untrampled, I will continue in my quest to be more worthy of Dalai Lama type respect from them rather than needing to be long carrot stick of the law :D

ETA Can I just say how much I love the word "embiggening" ;-)
 
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Does anyone know what she was trying to do, what was the end aim???? If anyone knows her can they please give her a few sharp tugs on the end of a rope and then give her a good kicking!!!!! MAD MAD MAD!!!!! :mad:
 
Well if that is what she classes as NH I think I will give it a miss and carry on respecting my horses and treating them with calmness and kindness. I feel so mad just watching that, couldn't watch it all as it made me so mad and sad at the same time. I can't imagine what the others in the school were thinking, were they then expected to try the same with their horses? I was hoping the horse was just going to give her a kick back but bless him even under such awful treatment he was still a gentle horse boy. Just goes to show how much most horses will put up with, lets be honest if he turned on her he could have done her some real damage, lets hope she meets one one day who isn't quite so placid!!!!!
 
Pale Rider said:
I'd call conventional in the UK militaristic, particularly that promoted by the Pony Club Or BHS.
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That's not necessarily a bad thing. Many of the military were trained by classical horsemen from Spain and France. Things evolve, things change and what you see now may not be a true reflection of those days.

I have seen demos by a few well known "nh" gurus, I've had my time with master Oliviera students, also, spent many months with a professional show hunter producer in the UK.

The "nh" people had a lot of talk about horse behaviour and how they think and submission and all that...

The others just shut their mouths and the horses did exactly the blooming same thing, just with ears forward.
 
I just don't get the whole shake a leadrope around violently whacking it in the chin several times creating a headshy horse can be natural horsemanship!

I will go out on a limb here and say the sodding lot of NH practitioners should be shot. I really don't care what any NH person says, it is clearly confusing for the horse and the look on all the horses faces says it all.

And while I am ranting, why didn't said owner of that horse tell her to stop it and get away from her horse! I would of smack her with a leadrope!
 
tallyho! said:
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Many of the military were trained by classical horsemen from Spain and France. Things evolve, things change and what you see now may not be a true reflection of those days.

I have seen demos by a few well known "nh" gurus, I've had my time with master Oliviera students, also, spent many months with a professional show hunter producer in the UK.

The "nh" people had a lot of talk about horse behaviour and how they think and submission and all that...

The others just shut their mouths and the horses did exactly the blooming same thing, just with ears forward.
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I'd agree that military is not entirely a bad thing. At the one end, it's riding by numbers, at the advanced end, sky's the limit. Just like any other school of training, pays your money and takes your choice.

You know, you only really need to mount from the left when wearing a sword.
 
Pale Rider said:
I'd agree that military is not entirely a bad thing. At the one end, it's riding by numbers, at the advanced end, sky's the limit. Just like any other school of training, pays your money and takes your choice.

You know, you only really need to mount from the left when wearing a sword.
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Don't you have a sword PR , I never leave home without one.
 
One of the best horsemen I ever met was a tennant hill farmer high in the pennines. He was not the best rider in the world, certainly not the most stylish, but his handling of horses was second to none. He grew up in the era of true working horses and told tales of travelling hay home to the farm in the half dark, and then setting the horses right before he went into the house. Both he and his wife could bring in or put out a herd of up to twenty horses, with voice alone and saw this as nothing out of the ordinary. They couldn't understand why other people couldn't just do the same as them :)
 
If I had a sword, I might be tempted to wave it around in the direction of this woman :)

Have done the whole mounting from the right and ended up smacking my face on the saddle :o
 
Pale Rider said:
The 14-18 War virtually wiped out horsemen and horses in the UK, in an effort to regenerate equestrianism, the Pony Club originated in England in 1928 and was led by army officers trained at the Cavalry School at Weedon. Therefore, with the rise in equestrianism as a sport and leisure activity between the wars and the founding of the BHS and Pony Club all with a strong military influence. Training and management of horses as prescribed by these organizations, reflects the military background.
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Excuse my ignorance but what is the problem with the military methods? What is it you think they do to these horses that's worse than what NH brigade are selling? I'd suggest the British military probably do have some idea about training horses, look at the Queens Cavalry Parades, that would be carnage if the horses weren't well trained and trusting of the riders/drivers. Anyway we have been training horses in this country since before the Yanks even had a country :p

Anyway back on topic - Woman in video = Thug
 
Amaranta said:
If I had a sword, I might be tempted to wave it around in the direction of this woman :)

Have done the whole mounting from the right and ended up smacking my face on the saddle :o
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You could try it before your sherry amaranta! Lol!
 
Pale Rider said:
You know, you only really need to mount from the left when wearing a sword.
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Whew! Thats a relief because I've just discovered that a mare I've just started riding is happy to let me get on from the right :) she though she was being smart refusing to stand by the mounting block on her left side.
 
It is less and less accurate to describe the BHS and Pony Club styles as military. They have evolved to take into account current knowledge of equine behaviour, welfare and training. In my experience students who lunge a horse at an equine college are taught to use their body language as well as the whip to urge a horse forwards, and students who elect the natural horsemanship route are taught to use their body language and the carrot stick to urge a horse forwards. The difference between the majority of users of either method is narrowing.

And what we see in the video isn't NH by most of our standards.
 
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