The 20% rule

[Wagtail]

Thankfully most people realise that this thread is not about overweight people, it is about the weight that a horse can carry. Many men who are fit and slender are too heavy for most horses. I set up this thread in an effort to try to come up with some sort of formula for deciphering what weight any particular horse can carry. So far ycbm has been the only one coming up with one and no one but me has responded to that. I am busy working on one myself, but does anyone else have any comments to make regarding ycbm's offering? I personally think it's a good one which I agree with, but perhaps it's slightly difficult to understand or could be misinterpreted. I think it would be a good subject for a spreadsheet where you input a few measurements and stats such as age and fitness and it calculates the weight bearing capacity of any given horse.

 

[Wagtail]

My two are about 640kg and 670kg respectively (16.3 and 17hh hunter types) at peak fitness. With tack, at my heaviest (have lost 1 1/2 stones since then) I weigh in at around the 15% mark, I'm more like 13-14% at the moment and I'm comfortable with that but wouldn't want to ride a much smaller horse.

At our riding club camp last year, we had a feed company with a weighbridge. With the exception of one VERY obese horse, my two were the heaviest. The next three were quite surprising. The first was a 15.2 chunky Warmblood who is a big lump of solid bone. (if you asked me his height I would say 16.2 because he is just so imposing) who was 630kg. Next was a 14.3 real traditional cob and a 17hh ex national hunt horse who were both 580kg. While I expected the TB to not be as heavy as the warmblood I though his extra 9 inches would make him heavier than the cob. I also expected both the TB and the cob to be lighter than quite a few 16hh-ish middleweight riding club horse types who turned out to be surprisingly light.

It just goes to show how difficult it is to guesstimate weight (of horse and rider) and how photos could be deceiving.

I completely agree.

A couple of the horses we had weighed here the other day surprised me. The biggest surprise was a 16.2hh ISH with plenty of bone and around a 3 condition score, possibly 3.5. I expected him to be at least 600kg, but he was only 550kg. Another obese horse I guessed to be 650kg but she weigh taped at 600. She was bang on 650kg so I guessed that one right. Then we have an obese 15.2 cob condition score 4.5 with lots of bone. I would have guessed around 620kg but he was only 580kg. I guessed my mare was 480, so I got her almost correct as she was 471kg. The two fatties came to me from a huge grassy field and are needless to say on a diet!

 

[be positive]

Personanlly I think it should be the riders weight should be at 10% because no one ever factors in the tack or 15% if you include tack.

If we used 10% then not many people would be riding, 10% of my ISH would be 8 stone 9 pounds not a realisitic amount for a 16.2 to be expected to carry as his maximum, the irish pony in my yard would be limited to 7.8 stone which is completely unreasonable, his "limit" we have set and one he is comfortable carrying for the work he does is 12stone which is just over 15%, he would not go hunting carrying that but is fine for normal work.

I think we need to use common sense, something that gets forgotten at times, take into account what work is being done and how fit the horse is rather than getting too bogged down on generalisations, a fit healthy cob going for a steady hack will be happier carrying more weight than it's optimum than a tb going out hunting all day.

 

[Leo Walker]

Not a snidey comment at all. I set up this thread in the interests of horse welfare. On the back of other threads where thankfully some authorities are taking action on people being to heavy for their mounts, and on the back of my mare having had her first weigh in yesterday. The usual people including yourself then argue that actually, it is okay to ride their horse at 22% and that vets etc have told you it's okay. I don't think this is in anyway conducive to horse welfare to potentially encourage others that it is perfectly fine to do so. I can only think you oppose any attempt by myself or others such as ycbm to try to have a serious discussion regarding the weight bearing ability of horses because it must make you feel better.

As for Mongoose, who knows what is buzzing around in her head? She just gives me the impression that she is a complete fruit loop. Yes this may seem rude, but when someone stalks your threads regardless of subject matter, and regardless of the fact that I have made it clear that I will not engage with her, she continues to make a spectacle of herself. That is my honest opinion. I think she is unhealthily obsessed with me and it's creepy. That is why I do not answer her posts.

It is a snidey comment and if I was that way inclined there are MANY comments I could make to you in a similar vein. I'm not going to.

Where have I advocated that everyone rides their horses at 22%? I have under the advice of several professionals and having read all the research. I did advocate that people should ask the professionals that they use.

I'm not sure why this is damaging to horse welfare? Because as I said, the research and opinion of the professionals I use say exactly the opposite.

I disagree with your opinion. I'm entitled to do that. I'm not sure why that would make me feel better? Just for the record, I dont currently ride my horse at all, and in fact have ridden him probably 10 times in nearly 5years of ownership. Riding is not a priority for me. I quite often say I want to ride more, but the reality is, if I never ride again then it doesnt matter to me.

 

[Leo Walker]

So far ycbm has been the only one coming up with one and no one but me has responded to that. I am busy working on one myself, but does anyone else have any comments to make regarding ycbm's offering?

I've responded to it, twice.

 

[Wagtail]

It is a snidey comment and if I was that way inclined there are MANY comments I could make to you in a similar vein. I'm not going to.

Where have I advocated that everyone rides their horses at 22%? I have under the advice of several professionals and having read all the research. I did advocate that people should ask the professionals that they use.

I'm not sure why this is damaging to horse welfare? Because as I said, the research and opinion of the professionals I use say exactly the opposite.

I disagree with your opinion. I'm entitled to do that. I'm not sure why that would make me feel better? Just for the record, I dont currently ride my horse at all, and in fact have ridden him probably 10 times in nearly 5years of ownership. Riding is not a priority for me. I quite often say I want to ride more, but the reality is, if I never ride again then it doesnt matter to me.

I am not saying YOU are doing anything to damage your horse's welfare; I am saying that by stating that vets have advised you that you are fine to ride even at 26% this is not conducive to horse welfare because some people will apply that to themselves and their own horse. Someone has said that a vet has told them it is fine so it must be fine for them too. What you do with your own horse is up to you, but people take what people say on a forum such as this and think it also applies to them. How does arguing that horses can carry even more weight than 20% help horses? How can it do anything other than potentially cause them harm? If you are happy with what your vet is telling you, then that's fine. It only applies to you and your horse. I would rather advise people that they should be fine up to a percentage of say 15% but any more than that then they need to take expert advice. Obviously there are many on here that use their own experience and common sense and don't need advice from a forum, and that's great. I am talking about the many people who are unsure and come on here for advice.

 

[Regandal]

I think any formula would have to take height and amount of bone as the 2 main criteria as they essentially influence the weight carrying ability, and are not altered by condition.
I am not good enough at maths however, to attempt one!

 

[Wagtail]

I think any formula would have to take height and amount of bone as the 2 main criteria as they essentially influence the weight carrying ability, and are not altered by condition.
I am not good enough at maths however, to attempt one!

Thanks. Yes I agree that height and amount of bone should be important considerations. I think what we would need would be a consensus of opinion using experience and common sense to agree on the weight bearing capacity for a number of different builds and types. Then use those as benchmarks to come up with a calculation. I think this could be done through something such as survey monkey. I'm going to work on it when I get more time and come up with something.

 

[Leo Walker]

I am not saying YOU are doing anything to damage your horse's welfare; I am saying that by stating that vets have advised you that you are fine to ride even at 26% this is not conducive to horse welfare because some people will apply that to themselves and their own horse. Someone has said that a vet has told them it is fine so it must be fine for them too. What you do with your own horse is up to you, but people take what people say on a forum such as this and think it also applies to them. How does arguing that horses can carry even more weight than 20% help horses? How can it do anything other than potentially cause them harm? If you are happy with what your vet is telling you, then that's fine. It only applies to you and your horse. I would rather advise people that they should be fine up to a percentage of say 15% but any more than that then they need to take expert advice. Obviously there are many on here that use their own experience and common sense and don't need advice from a forum, and that's great. I am talking about the many people who are unsure and come on here for advice.

So I cant say what numerous vets/physios etc have said to me, which correlates with the research because people who dont know any better might read a forum and take it on board? But you can tell people 15% because thats your opinion?

I have repeatedly said that people should ask their own vets/physios etc.

 

[cobgoblin]

Coming back to ROR and their weight limit of 17%....presumably only for tbs. I was wondering how they are going to enforce it. Given that visual assessment is thought to be so inaccurate, are they going to weigh both horse and rider at shows? I can't see every show hiring a weigh bridge.
Or are horses going to come with a payload certificate?

 

[Leo Walker]

Thanks. Yes I agree that height and amount of bone should be important considerations. I think what we would need would be a consensus of opinion using experience and common sense to agree on the weight bearing capacity for a number of different builds and types. Then use those as benchmarks to come up with a calculation. I think this could be done through something such as survey monkey. I'm going to work on it when I get more time and come up with something.

I thought that the one thing we all agreed on is that every horse is different and if you have any concerns you should ask your vet??

 

[Wagtail]

I thought that the one thing we all agreed on is that every horse is different and if you have any concerns you should ask your vet??

Why are you so obstructive to me trying to do what I can to ensure horses are not overloaded? What motivates you?

 

[be positive]

Thanks. Yes I agree that height and amount of bone should be important considerations. I think what we would need would be a consensus of opinion using experience and common sense to agree on the weight bearing capacity for a number of different builds and types. Then use those as benchmarks to come up with a calculation. I think this could be done through something such as survey monkey. I'm going to work on it when I get more time and come up with something.

They are important considerations but knowing how few people actually know the true height of their horse, what may be written on the passport is NOT the height but normally a rough estimate and usually well over what it actually measures, then add to that whether they know where to measure bone correctly you bring in the possibility of even more random guides than the weightape offers.

 

[Wagtail]

Coming back to ROR and their weight limit of 17%....presumably only for tbs. I was wondering how they are going to enforce it. Given that visual assessment is thought to be so inaccurate, are they going to weigh both horse and rider at shows? I can't see every show hiring a weigh bridge.
Or are horses going to come with a payload certificate?

That's a good point. I have no idea how they could do it. I can only think they must have a guide to the healthy weight of horses of different types and weights. They are either going to have to weigh every rider, or someone is going to have to make a judgement and request a rider is weighed if they suspect the weight limit is being exceeded. Personally, I think that every rider should be weighed and that way it removes the possibility of offence being taken and removes the subjectiveness of it. It has to be based on the IDEAL weight of the horses though, otherwise people will be tempted to fatten up their horses so that they fit within the boundaries.

 

[Wagtail]

They are important considerations but knowing how few people actually know the true height of their horse, what may be written on the passport is NOT the height but normally a rough estimate and usually well over what it actually measures, then add to that whether they know where to measure bone correctly you bring in the possibility of even more random guides than the weightape offers.

It's a minefield, and probably an impossible one to navigate. Worth a try though, I think.

 

[Leo Walker]

Why are you so obstructive to me trying to do what I can to ensure horses are not overloaded? What motivates you?

Because I think you have an extremely unhealthy attitude to your own and others weight, which makes me very, very uncomfortable that you are doing this. I also think that the way you are doing this, with no consistency and assessing people from a photo with guesstimated weights is ludicrous.

People who care will check with vets etc, people who dont will ride regardless of any survey or guidelines or anything you say.

 

[Wagtail]

Because I think you have an extremely unhealthy attitude to your own and others weight, which makes me very, very uncomfortable that you are doing this. I also think that the way you are doing this, with no consistency and assessing people from a photo with guesstimated weights is ludicrous.

So as I thought, your motivation is a personal one.

 

[huskydamage]

Well I got the weigh tape out and depending on which way I did it, I got different sizes. 368 and 399. I am calling myself 12stone with saddle etc so with one method I would be over 20 %and the other under. My conclusion is none of this makes much sense to me, this thread has got way too ranty and I feel bad for people with horses that need exercise but aren't riding because of stuff like this. Honestly I haven't seen that many fat people riding horses, although it obviously happens, the largest rider I know on a pony is me, but I do know loads of people with multiple horses they don't ride for all kinds of lame excuses, alot of the horses are not healthier at all for it,quite the opposite.

 

[PaddyMonty]

This would leave my 15.1 heavy weight cob with 10 inches of bone only being able to carry 11 stone.

Your math is wrong. horse at 600kg (as stated by you), 15% is 90kg, mulitpy by 2.2 to give pounds =198 lbs or 14.14 stone.

 

[ycbm]

I thought that the one thing we all agreed on is that every horse is different and if you have any concerns you should ask your vet??

No, I didn't agree that. Some vets, especially those who don't ride, haven't got a clue. Some will say anything to keep a client. Some will be too embarrassed to tell a client they are too big for their horse. Some simply wouldn't be able to judge the weight of the client or the horse.

My advice would be to weigh your horse on a proper machine, take 20%, then make the kind of deductions I suggested earlier for age, conformation, etc.

 

[ycbm]

Because I think you have an extremely unhealthy attitude to your own and others weight, which makes me very, very uncomfortable that you are doing this. I also think that the way you are doing this, with no consistency and assessing people from a photo with guesstimated weights is ludicrous.

People who care will check with vets etc, people who dont will ride regardless of any survey or guidelines or anything you say.

FC those people specifically requested an aesthetic evaluation of their photos.

 

[Leo Walker]

So as I thought, your motivation is a personal one.

Would you like to add that I'm bullying you and to tell me all about the PMs you have had from people who are too frightened to post now, because thats how these things go usually with you.

 

[ycbm]

So I cant say what numerous vets/physios etc have said to me, which correlates with the research because people who dont know any better might read a forum and take it on board? But you can tell people 15% because thats your opinion?

I have repeatedly said that people should ask their own vets/physios etc.

There is no research that supports your experts. Nobody knows what the effect over the lifetime of the horse is of carrying higher or lower weights. That research, afaik, has not been done.

And until it is, I will continue to err on the side of caution and use 15% for a horse that is actually required to work seriously, and an absolute rule that the saddle must be big enough to reduce the pressure points below 1.5lbs/in sq while still ending before the horse's last rib.

I don't mind if you want to apply a different rule to your own horse, but please do not claim you have expert back-up for your decision, because at the moment we are all, vets, physios and laymen, waving a wet finger in the air.

I could jog a marathon tomorrow and be fine. But if I do one every day I'll probably be in a wheelchair with no cartilage in my knees or hip joints in ten years time. We need a long term study on a very large group of horses before we can put any faith in research to help us decide the optimum weight limit for a horse in regular work.

Until then, common sense for those who have the experience (and any common sense to spare!), but everyone else needs a guideline.

 

[FfionWinnie]

My total weight with tack on my 14.1 heavy gypsy cob is 12.5 stone, panicking now that I am way too heavy for him......

My cob weighed over 500kgs on the scales at 14.1 with not an ounce of fat on her. I would describe her as a sporty cob.

 

[indie1282]

Using Wagtails original post - just because a horse can carry ( in theory ) 15 stone should it have to? Surely it's better for the horse to carry less weight?

I know when I am at my lightest my riding improves no end and my horses go better. I feel more confident and I am a much more effective rider.

I think if you are riding at 20% or over then that's too heavy. Sorry!

 

[Nudibranch]

There is no research that supports your experts. Nobody knows what the effect over the lifetime of the horse is of carrying higher or lower weights. That research, afaik, has not been done.

And until it is, I will continue to err on the side of caution and use 15% for a horse that is actually required to work seriously, and an absolute rule that the saddle must be big enough to reduce the pressure points below 1.5lbs/in sq while still ending before the horse's last rib.

I don't mind if you want to apply a different rule to your own horse, but please do not claim you have expert back-up for your decision, because at the moment we are all, vets, physios and laymen, waving a wet finger in the air.

I could jog a marathon tomorrow and be fine. But if I do one every day I'll probably be in a wheelchair with no cartilage in my knees or hip joints in ten years time. We need a long term study on a very large group of horses before we can put any faith in research to help us decide the optimum weight limit for a horse in regular work.

Until then, common sense for those who have the experience (and any common sense to spare!), but everyone else needs a guideline.

I would agree with this; as I pointed out earlier the existing research isn't really fit for purpose. I do think there are a fair few riders who are, imo, too large for their mounts but nobody is ever going to agree and certainly nobody is going to admit it! There's a fair bit of inverse snobbery on here these days about larger types, especially warmbloods and the like. Given the increasing proportion of overweight or obese population, I suspect some rider/horse combinations would be better with a bit of spare capacity for the sake of welfare. But it's too emotive a subject and tbh, there's never going to be a perfect one fits all rule as there are way too many variables. So in that light I think 15% is a safer guide for the animal.

 

[Wagtail]

Would you like to add that I'm bullying you and to tell me all about the PMs you have had from people who are too frightened to post now, because thats how these things go usually with you.

Crikey, FC, you are getting as bad as Mongoose now.

 

[cobgoblin]

I wouldn't trust a vet to know the weight carrying capacity of a horse.....that's not their job and their guess is no better than anyone else's. Plus they are running a business and wouldn't want to upset anyone.

I think 15% is a good figure to aim at...it's simple ..and it will usually be a guesstimate because most of us don't have constant access to a weigh bridge. So at least that figure gives some leeway. Hopefully enough leeway to take account of conformation and age.
The 20% rule can come up with some ridiculous numbers, especially for the heavier draft type animals, who are less suited to weight carrying ,,,,,and there would always be that human trait of pushing the boundaries by the odd percentage or two....better that it is only pushed up to 18 or 19%.

 

[Goldenstar]

Why would a vet know it's in the same category of vets giving training advice .

 

[Equi]

Well i kept my promise and went to sw. I'm a few lbs lighter than i was the last time i weighed in so thats good! lol. I have 9lbs to loose until i can go on a trek with my friends again due to the weight limit at the yard, and im really dying for a good blast.