The 20% rule

Lovethebeach said:
Neither for or against but history, when lives depended on sound horses, did have several experiments, from the book Small Horses In Warfare http://www.lrgaf.org/small-horses.htm
Ponies in India.

Captain L. E. Nolan, in Cavalry History and Tactics (1860), gives an account of an experimental march made by 200 of the 15th Hussars from Bangalore to Hyderabad and back, 800 miles. The objects of the march were to test the capabilities of the troop horses and to ascertain if there were anything to choose between stallions and geldings in respect of endurance. To arrive at a solution of the latter question, one hundred of the men were mounted on entires and the other hundred on horses which had been castrated only six months previously, regardless of age, for the purpose of making the experiment.

The squadrons marched to their destination, took part in field-days and pageants, and started to reach Bangalore by forced marches; they accomplished the last 180 miles at a rate of thirty miles per day, bringing in only one led horse, the remainder being perfectly sound and fit for further work. One horse, a 14.3 Persian, carried a corporal who, with his accoutrements, rode 22 stone 7 lbs. It may be added that there was nothing to choose between the performances of the stallions and geldings; though the fact that the latter had so recently been castrated was held to make their achievement the more creditable.

A forced march such as this has far more value as testimony to staying power than a more trying feat performed by a single animal; but mention must be made of Captain Horne's ride. This officer, who belonged to the Madras Horse Artillery, undertook in 1841 to ride his grey Arab, "Jumping Jimmy," 400 miles in five days on the Bangalore race-course; and accomplished his task with three hours and five minutes to spare, the horse doing the last 79 miles 5 furlongs in 19 hours 55 minutes, and being quite ready for his corn when pulled up. General Tweedie, in his work on The Arabian Horse (1894), quotes the above particulars from the Bengal Sporting Magazine, in whose pages full details are given.
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How long did they live?

Forty years ago a horse of eleven was worth a lot less money than one of nine.
 
equi said:
Yes bad photo but one of the only I have side on. He's supposed to be halted 😂

This is one of my most recent but it's just a blur.


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Equi I'm really sorry, but I think, after considering it for quite a while, that it's better to be honest. I would be really concerned about the backwards bend in your horse's leading foreleg. For me, that would reduce his % weight carrying capacity down to the 12 - 15 % mark.
 
I think the point the recent studies make is that 20% is the weight at which the horses start physically struggling to carry the weight, as in muscle soreness, shortened stride, etc...
But I agree with a previous poster that the saddle is equally important as can cause pressure points below thaf 20% (for example I have had the problem with a treeless saddle causing white hair under stirrup bar when I am much less than 20%).
 
ycbm said:
Equi I'm really sorry, but I think, after considering it for quite a while, that it's better to be honest. I would be really concerned about the backwards bend in your horse's leading foreleg. For me, that would reduce his % weight carrying capacity down to the 12 - 15 % mark.
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One thing to bear in mind is that this is a screenshot of a video, hence the blurryness lol you may also notice one of his feet appear to be missing!

Probably not comparable due to no rider but it's not quite so blurry!

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However I do know that less weight is always better - I'm going to work hard on it I plan to go back to sw tomorrow!
 
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ycbm said:
So can we start our own formula? Here's my first go.

Absolute maximum for any horse of any type - 20%

Young, old, not in regular conditioning work of a serious nature - deduct 20%

Horse is overweight - deduct the amount of weight that the horse is carrying in his own fat.

Rider is unbalanced/novice/poor muscle tone - deduct 20%

Horse is average width across the loins and fairly good conformation - minus 20%

Horse is narrow across the loins/long in the back/long legged especially in the cannon bones/small tight joints - minus 30%

Maximum deduction for multiple issues 50%


So a horse like Frankiecobs, in regular work of the right kind, with a competent rider, can carry 20%, but the same weight lightweight ex flat racer with a wobbly rider would only carry 10%.
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Thanks for this, ycbm. I think something along these lines would be ideal.

In the meantime perhaps we should be advising people that 15% is a safer figure to aim for until we know all of the contributing factors rather than telling people who ask that they are okay as long as they don't weigh more than 20% of their horse's weight. It MAY be the case that with a very balanced, experienced rider, with a horse of great conformation that is fit and well muscled, that 20% of the horse's ideal weight would be fine, but I think that just advising people regardless (which seems to happen on every weight query thread) is not good advice.
 
Wagtail said:
Thanks for this, ycbm. I think something along these lines would be ideal.

In the meantime perhaps we should be advising people that 15% is a safer figure to aim for until we know all of the contributing factors rather than telling people who ask that they are okay as long as they don't weigh more than 20% of their horse's weight. It MAY be the case that with a very balanced, experienced rider, with a horse of great conformation that is fit and well muscled, that 20% of the horse's ideal weight would be fine, but I think that just advising people regardless (which seems to happen on every weight query thread) is not good advice.
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This would leave my 15.1 heavy weight cob with 10 inches of bone only being able to carry 11 stone. I think the most sensible approach would be to accept that arbitrary rules about weight carrying ability should not apply and common sense, experience, horse welfare and a non prejudiced view should prevail.
 
I feel very strongly about weight limits and riders. I'm not in any way bashing overweight people, but I believe we have a duty of care to our horses to be in the best possible physical shape in order for them to be able to carry us with minimal strain. Basically our job is to make their job as easy as possible. Anyone can put on a few pounds here and there, I am exactly the same, in fact last year I realised my weight had crept up half a stone, due to some medication I was taking, and I set out to do something about it fast.

What concerns me is the number of morbidly overweight people I see riding horses of completely the wrong build/type and size for them. If you are a larger rider and you cannot lose the weight or have some reason why you maintain that weight, then please choose an appropriate size mount with the right amount of bone.

I've looked at all the pictures on this thread and in my opinion, nobody looks too heavy for their horses on the ones I have seen, so my comments are not aimed at anyone on here. I do, however, witness on a daily basis a very overweight rider on a fine boned 16hh horse with pretty dreadful conformation. It is a horrid picture and in my opinion, the horse has shown notable signs of struggling. Rider must be 15 stone easily and jumps the horse 5-6 times a week. I wouldn't want to say anything for fear of upsetting the rider but I really struggle witnessing this.
 
I had never heard of 20% rule before I came on this forum. Not sure how to do it off my phone but I can gurantee if I put a pic up most people would think I was evil and crushing my pony to death lol Yet Ive had her 15years jumped,hunted etc and at nearly 24 she can still gallop around with me no problem. She has a touch of hock arthritus and that's about it. Never sick or sorry. Just did a 3day challenge ride with her and she was galloping up the front with hirlings twice her size. Always get comments from people like 'that one could go round again! Never stops!' I look aesthetically way too big on her but she clearly has no issues carrying me! She is 14hh,skinny type and I 'm 5'7 weigh 65kg. If someone can tell me please how to work out 20% from that will do with my terrible maths
 
Mongoose11 said:
This would leave my 15.1 heavy weight cob with 10 inches of bone only being able to carry 11 stone. I think the most sensible approach would be to accept that arbitrary rules about weight carrying ability should not apply and common sense, experience, horse welfare and a non prejudiced view should prevail.
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This 100% - the rule is totally arbitrary similar to BMI and doesn't consider anything about the horse!

I have two horses at completely different ends of the spectrum

Horse 1 is 13.2 and was last weigh bridged in July at 367kg and with tack I am about 17% of her weight - she is a native type but is built like a little sport horse, she has never had a day lame in the past 10 years and jumps and wins round 1m tracks with ease and chiro has never seen a pony her size with such a good back. She trains at medium level DR at home, if i put a picture up of us training with dressage length stirrups you would probably say I'm a little tall.

Horse 2 is 17.2 and approximately just under 700kg - this means that i am about 8% incl tack, there is absolutely no way I would let someone who weighed in at the 17% - almost 22 stone get on her!

You have to use COMMON SENSE!
 
huskydamage said:
I had never heard of 20% rule before I came on this forum. Not sure how to do it off my phone but I can gurantee if I put a pic up most people would think I was evil and crushing my pony to death lol Yet Ive had her 15years jumped,hunted etc and at nearly 24 she can still gallop around with me no problem. She has a touch of hock arthritus and that's about it. Never sick or sorry. Just did a 3day challenge ride with her and she was galloping up the front with hirlings twice her size. Always get comments from people like 'that one could go round again! Never stops!' I look aesthetically way too big on her but she clearly has no issues carrying me! She is 14hh,skinny type and I 'm 5'7 weigh 65kg. If someone can tell me please how to work out 20% from that will do with my terrible maths
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You'd need to know what she weighs to work it out.
 
Nudibranch said:
By following the 20% rule, my mw would be "capable" of carrying 22 stone, and even more up to the 25% point.

Anyone can see that's clearly not sensible.
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You may not think so but perhaps the science would say yes they are, if they are looking at muscle enzymes that are increased when there is muscle damage and there is no increase that seems to be a good objective test.

'This study was designed to test the weight-carrying ability of light-breed horses performing 45 minutes of light to moderate exercise, simulating a riding lesson for a student at an intermediate skill level. In this study, weight loads of 25 and 30% of the horse's body weight were shown to influence work rate, heart rate, and lactate concentrations. No differences were found in heart rate, plasma lactate concentration, respiration rate, rectal temperature, and work rate for horses carrying weights of 15 and 20% of body weight. Serum creatine kinase activity, commonly used as a measure of muscle damage in exercising horses, was not changed when the horses carried 15 and 20% of their body weight. Post-exercise creatine kinase activity was greater in horses carrying 30% of body weight, and levels remained elevated 24 and 48 hours after exercise.'
http://saracen.equinews.com//article/horses-weight-carrying-ability-studied
There is a another study on the 20% rule on TB's which also shows this but in a different way but its got lost in google and I can not find it. You have to say that the horses condition score would have to be taken into account and for these studies these horses would not be classed as over weight.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23302086 Not the study I was looking for but another way to measure the effects of weight.
 
huskydamage said:
I had never heard of 20% rule before I came on this forum. Not sure how to do it off my phone but I can gurantee if I put a pic up most people would think I was evil and crushing my pony to death lol Yet Ive had her 15years jumped,hunted etc and at nearly 24 she can still gallop around with me no problem. She has a touch of hock arthritus and that's about it. Never sick or sorry. Just did a 3day challenge ride with her and she was galloping up the front with hirlings twice her size. Always get comments from people like 'that one could go round again! Never stops!' I look aesthetically way too big on her but she clearly has no issues carrying me! She is 14hh,skinny type and I 'm 5'7 weigh 65kg. If someone can tell me please how to work out 20% from that will do with my terrible maths
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I would guess your pony is around 400 kg. 20% of this would be 80kg. I personally think that in general, smaller horses can carry more as a percentage of their weight than larger horses. If you look at the animal kingdom, an ant can carry 20 times its own weight. Smaller is generally stronger, pound for pound. I think that you are probably well within your pony's weight carrying ability.
 
Wagtail said:
I would guess your pony is around 400 kg. 20% of this would be 80kg. I personally think that in general, smaller horses can carry more as a percentage of their weight than larger horses. If you look at the animal kingdom, an ant can carry 20 times its own weight. Smaller is generally stronger, pound for pound. I think that you are probably well within your pony's weight carrying ability.
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I think this is potentially dangerous advice. You have estimated the weight of this horse to be 400kg but your own horse, who is just over 15h, weighs 471. My horse, just over 15h, weighs 600kg and was described as a 'good' weight by the company rep.

This horse could weigh 350kg and then that puts the rider in a different position.
 
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But studies based on single or few sessions do not take into account the cumulative effect of weight bearing, do they? There's no way on earth I'd let someone of 22 stone or anywhere near ride my big lad. I am 13 stone including tack and quite honestly that's enough. My vet is quite adamant that 15% is an absolute max, so I think a lot of people on here would be pretty hacked off with him.
 
Wagtail said:
I think this is a very good chart for estimating your horse's weight, huskydamage. http://www.horsewyse.com.au/weight.html
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I'm glad you think that's useful, you may find a different answer on a different chart. The fact is, the poster you advised has described her pony as a 'skinny' type so she could be 350kg and this would leave her, with tack, at 20% or more. I'm making a very simple point that we need to deal with factual information rather than estimates, personal preferences or aesthetics.

You've also forgotten to deduct YCBM's percentage for the hock arthritis. Did you automatically assume that the rider would be fine because 65kg is a palatable weight for you?
 
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And photos are not a good way to judge. My horse looks considerably lighter in photos and almost a different type. I look a fair bit lighter than I actually weigh as well. I think its almost impossible to judge a persons weight from one snap of them sitting on a horse
 
My 16.1hh riding horse type weight tapes at 450-500. I assume she is about 500 (perhaps 550) kgs, good overall agreement with chart.
 
ALL of these people are too heavy to ride these horses if we use 15%

About a stone and a half over:

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About 2 stone over:

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this one by nearly 3 stone:

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And this one by 3 stone again, probably more, plus the horse is carrying a fair amount of excess weight:

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And yes, I do know what all of these people actually weigh stood on scales, so I'm not guesstimating anything, other than how overweight the chestnut was, he lost a lot of weight and I cant remember what he was at this point
 
Of they are all over 15% then I would have to say that if I owned them, none of them would carry that weight for anything but an hour's light hack. And, again if it was mine, I would tell the man on the chestnut to get off.
 
I think the point of Frankiecob is that it's hard to tell with a picture. I agree, plus the study shows no difference between 15 and 20%.
 
I think the point of Frankiecob is that it's hard to tell with a picture. I agree, plus the study shows no difference between 15 and 20%.
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It impossible.

I'm sure you would YCBM. But my vets, my physio, chiro, instructor etc, etc wouldnt and none of those horses has suffered any long term repercussions, so who is right? I know who my money is on.
 
Well, me plus all riding gear and tack works out as just under 14% of my cob's total weight, and that's with heavy winter clothing. Cannon bone measurement calculation put my score in the low seventies, which is also fine. So I think we're okay regarding weight. He's only four though, so we're taking things very carefully to allow for that :)
 
Cortez said:
Good rider conformation plays a much larger part in riding ability than many wish to acknowledge, it's just pure mechanics. I am tall, with long thighs, short back and a strong centre, all of which makes riding easier.
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Out of interest, is this for all kinds of riding? would different saddles help overcome conformation 'defects' in the rider (like iberian saddles, western, stock etc etc?) I don't know - just wondered (ps I'm sort of the right conformation for riding except for overlong back but find modern dressage saddles the most uncomfortable things on earth, though that maybe due to muscle-memory from a childhood of dodgy ponies with equally dodgy showing saddles :) )
 
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