The 'Apex Trim' - anyone heard of it? Your thoughts?

[BBP]

This is a barefoot trimming method, I wondered if people on here had heard of it and if so what their thoughts are? To me the 'after' hooves don't look right, but I'm no expert (they seem to take the toes shorter and the heel buttress higher than most trimmed hooves I have seen in the UK, so the feet look more boxy. They say this give more room for development of the digital cushion. Someone has told me it is no wonder that my horse is crippled with hind feet like he has, because he will have no room for any digital cushion and is walking on the bulbs of his heels, and that this apex trim will save him. Obviously when you feel a bit vulnerable and fragile about your horse it is easy to latch on to anything, but their pictures just don't look right to me, unless i am so used to seeing the wrong thing? I do agree that my horse has weak digital cushion.

 

[saalsk]

I saw it a couple of years ago being advertised in lots of places - and a the time had a footy TB with terrible hoof quality, who had been bf and turned out for 6 months with no care at all. Was looking to keep bf, but primarily return the feet to a proper shape. It looked a little fanatical in its theories, and in the ways to get the info in the first place - sign up, send money etc etc. I thought the feet ended up looking a bit bullnose and upright, but it isn't always clear how *before* the before pics are, and how many trims etc since the pics were taken. I found the "trim like this, your horse will be sound, comfy, happy, taller/shorter, fatter/thinner, snaffle mouthed and will load itself perfectly, and actually do the trailer reversing itself..." type blurb very off putting. I ended up getting the yard farrier to trim them as a one off, to give me time to look into local trimmers. One youtube based clip ( american I think ) that I found really useful from a physics and dimensions point of view, was called thehappyhoof. He draws lines, and you can see the angles he talks about, from various angles. All during a single clip, and then you can see the next one a few weeks later. I found that one useful in learning to look at what I saw as a whole. If that makes sense ! I had a lovely equine podiatry registered person look after my 2 for a few years, who was very good, but sadly I could not persuade her to move house at the same time as me, or commute the 5h to do a visit here !

 

[Mule]

This is a barefoot trimming method, I wondered if people on here had heard of it and if so what their thoughts are? To me the 'after' hooves don't look right, but I'm no expert (they seem to take the toes shorter and the heel buttress higher than most trimmed hooves I have seen in the UK, so the feet look more boxy. They say this give more room for development of the digital cushion. Someone has told me it is no wonder that my horse is crippled with hind feet like he has, because he will have no room for any digital cushion and is walking on the bulbs of his heels, and that this apex trim will save him. Obviously when you feel a bit vulnerable and fragile about your horse it is easy to latch on to anything, but their pictures just don't look right to me, unless i am so used to seeing the wrong thing? I do agree that my horse has weak digital cushion.

I'm no expert but I do think that less is more. I think it is risky to artificially change the shape of the hoof that the horse naturally grows. My opinion is coloured by my thin soled horse, so i would naturally be cautious. Just taking them barefoot changes the hooves so much for the better. I think that is what makes the difference rather than the type of trim.

 

[ester]

Nononononononono

 

[BBP]

Nononononononono

That’s what my brain said!!!!

 

[BBP]

I'm no expert but I do think that less is more. I think it is risky to artificially change the shape of the hoof that the horse naturally grows. My opinion is coloured by my thin soled horse, so i would naturally be cautious. Just taking them barefoot changes the hooves so much for the better. I think that is what makes the difference rather than the type of trim.

This is the thing, mine has been barefoot his entire life (15 years) and has always grown the same hind hoof, regardless of who has trimmed him. Most barely ever touch his hinds, and certainly not the heels, this is the foot that his body grows. I’m sure this person genuinely believes what they are saying, and I appreciate very much that they took the time to comment to n something, but they showed me a drawing on a photo of my horses hoof of where it ‘should’ be trimmed to, and it looked bizarre to me.

 

[paddy555]

This is the thing, mine has been barefoot his entire life (15 years) and has always grown the same hind hoof, regardless of who has trimmed him. Most barely ever touch his hinds, and certainly not the heels, this is the foot that his body grows. I’m sure this person genuinely believes what they are saying, and I appreciate very much that they took the time to comment to n something, but they showed me a drawing on a photo of my horses hoof of where it ‘should’ be trimmed to, and it looked bizarre to me.

can you post the drawing? It is difficult to understand what you are saying about the trim.

 

[saalsk]

Interesting what you say about hinds ( sorry, can't quote you BBP ) - mine (bf for 10 years, got as a foal, never had shoes) also rarely needs any hind work done, and the most I tend to do is tidy the frog of any hanging-off bits, and run one of those slightly rounded single hand rasps around the edge. If I am being critical, his heels are quite close together, so I careful with cleaning etc, but it has never been an issue. Seeing the drawing will be interesting if you are able to.

 

[BBP]

can you post the drawing? It is difficult to understand what you are saying about the trim.

Hopefully they won’t mind me posting it as I’m certainly not trying to slate anyone, just understand if my ideas are wrong. They said it’s a rough drawing just designed to give me the impression of how it should be.

 

[BBP]

There are lots of photos on the apex Facebook page that show the hoof looking more upright like in the drawing.

 

[saalsk]

I can see what you mean, and the drawer means, but IMHO the lines are not that helpful in assessing the foot as a whole, and almost look like they are drawn on without really looking at what angle the foot is at. There are always going to be ideal shapes, and ideals to work towards, but none of us are really likely to achieve that ! But in terms of angles on that foot, I wouldn't be thinking there was a big issue unless the horse was unsound with it ?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It is a very rough drawing.

It does make me wonder if they are trying to create arab type hooves on all breeds?

 

[SpeedyPony]

Very much not an expert, but...
I can't help but think that would alter the angle and stresses on the joints of the pastern/fetlock, potentially damaging them with the unusual strains. Thinking about horses with base narrow/wide conformation, the hoof will be longer in one side as a result and after the growth plates in the limb have closed it will only cause harm to trim the hoof so that it is even side-to-side, so these horses tend to be trimmed to support the shape of the limb, rather than "correct" it.
If his hooves have always grown like that it sounds like a conformational issue, which I'd be wary of interfering with.

 

[Gloi]

I don't think I'd be happy to let them near my pony

 

[SEL]

I've recently been on the end of "trim like this and your horse will be sound" FB posts too. I wish it was that simple.

I've no idea about specific trimming methods but think that poster was saying you needed more heel. Probably right but if you are also dealing with SI issues then I wonder if this hoof is a result of that rather than the cause of it. I saw your post on one of the FB forums and a lot of the bodyworkers were focussing on the feet - but it's a challenge when you have a complex horse to know if body issues drive the hoof or the other way round. I'm having the same debate and mine has never worn shoes!

 

[Nudibranch]

I know of the trimming you mean and it has made me wonder - as we do as conscientious owners. I just don't know the answer. What I do know is that my multi issue SI problems big horse grew the most frustrating pair of fronts I have ever known. Thin soled, long toes, low heels despite lots of effort to encourage him to do otherwise. I am convinced it was related to the issues going on higher up, and sadly I never got on top of it. His hinds were always good, even though the back end was where the problems were. I think with these ones, the best we can do is try to keep them sound and comfortable, and go with what works, even if it doesn't seem conventional.

As for the apex trim, I don't know. I guess it suits some hooves but definitely not all.

 

[BBP]

I've recently been on the end of "trim like this and your horse will be sound" FB posts too. I wish it was that simple.

I've no idea about specific trimming methods but think that poster was saying you needed more heel. Probably right but if you are also dealing with SI issues then I wonder if this hoof is a result of that rather than the cause of it. I saw your post on one of the FB forums and a lot of the bodyworkers were focussing on the feet - but it's a challenge when you have a complex horse to know if body issues drive the hoof or the other way round. I'm having the same debate and mine has never worn shoes!

I’ve definitely had an interesting few days of reading and getting advice. After Be Positive pointed out the dropped fetlocks (and I’m astounded that we - me, vets, osteos, physios have never noticed it) I am wondering if he suffers from hyper mobility, like humans can. Or just a genetic conformational weakness that makes his hind ligaments lax. Rather than being a strain or damage to the ligaments. It could explain why he never looks quite right behind, why he has no power or push in the canter, why he doesn’t get up easily or like other horses do. Also maybe why he is more anxious and has more field falls than the others. And it might be because of that Hypermobility that he never grows more heel than he has now, regardless of what the trimmer does. I’m purely speculating, there isn’t a lot of literature about Hypermobility in horses, unlike in humans. But I can see from old photos that this is not a new and injury related drop, it’s something he has always done, but idiot me has never seen it. Even now in real life I struggle to see it, it’s only when I view a video in slow motion that it’s so blatantly obvious.

 

[ycbm]

Is it possible he has ESPA, equine systemic proteoglycan accumulation, formerly known as DSLD degenerative suspensory ligament disease? Take a look at the symptoms and see. Trouble getting up is one of them, they often sit before they stand. So are lax ligaments and dropped fetlocks, but it does loads of other damage in the body.
.

 

[BBP]

Is it possible he has ESPA, equine systemic proteoglycan accumulation, formerly known as DSLD degenerative suspensory ligament disease? Take a look at the symptoms and see. Trouble getting up is one of them, they often sit before they stand. So are lax ligaments and dropped fetlocks, but it does loads of other damage in the body.
.

Thanks, yes it’s something I’m keeping in mind. My only thought is that I’m not sure he has or is degenerating, in that most things I see are consistent between him at 3 and him now (looking back at old photos/video) and they aren’t at all dropped when standing, he looks exactly the same as at 3. So I’m wondering if it’s hypermobility instead, which is having knock on effects on the rest of him. But I’m keeping an open mind to everything.

 

[Sleipnir]

The lady, Lana, who is the person behind the Apex method right now, is a fraud with no formal trimming education and a con artist. There are groups on FB with her former clients who are sharing stories of abuse and their dealings with the officials to receive their money back for services they never got.

 

[BBP]

The lady, Lana, who is the person behind the Apex method right now, is a fraud and a con artist. There are groups on FB with her former clients who are sharing stories of abuse and their dealings with the official to receive their money back for service they never got.

Late last night after posting this I did see a few messages she had written to people, and on the basis of those I certainly wouldn’t be getting involved.

 

[ester]

That is not what I expected the drawing to look like, I thought it was going to be at least a proper mark up ?

 

[tallyho!]

I keep posting this on every barefoot post I come across but if you want a trimmer find someone who is a DAEP or at least AANHCP. If your farrier has many performing barefoot horses then also them.

EPAUK and UKNHCP adhere to the NOPS set out by LANTRA (although only EPAUK train now and where you get your DAEP). You know where you are then.

 

[DabDab]

That is not what I expected the drawing to look like, I thought it was going to be at least a proper mark up ?

What, you mean 30 seconds spent using paint doesn't make you an authority on hoof trimming?

 

[ester]

And using the thickest marker available ?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Well they don't want to give away their secrets for free.

 

[ester]

It’s true she does charge quite a lot for mark ups.

 

[Sleipnir]

It’s true she does charge quite a lot for mark ups.

But put a foot wrong/ask the wrong questions, she will promptly remove you from her "exclusive" facebook group and disappear with your money, claiming to PayPal that you, in fact, received the service in full.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

But put a foot wrong/ask the wrong questions, she will promptly remove you from her "exclusive" facebook group and disappear with your money, claiming to PayPal that you, in fact, received the service in full.

Of course I now want to know what the 'wrong' questions are?

I did google some before and afters and the hooves were so terrible to start with that I did think that almost anyone could improve them. I guess the real test is when presented with a hoof that is actually a well balanced, functioning hoof. Would they recognise that and trim to keep it that way or inflict their ideas of how it 'should look'?

 

[Sleipnir]

As far as I've seen, just about anything can be the "wrong" question, if it's not immediately agreeing with everything and thanking profusely. This person seems to have a very low self esteem combined with a power complex - that builds up for a fun ride!