The 'Apex Trim' - anyone heard of it? Your thoughts?

[Meowy Catkin]

OK... that's a fun tightrope to walk as you said.

So gush your praises or be banned!

 

[paddy555]

As far as I've seen, just about anything can be the "wrong" question, if it's not immediately agreeing with everything and thanking profusely. This person seems to have a very low self esteem combined with a power complex - that builds up for a fun ride!

but what about the actaul trimming, what specifically don't you like about that?

 

[holeymoley]

I can’t help but think all the horses with the apex trim are really long in the heels...

 

[BBP]

I should clarify, the person who sent me this was not Lana, nor was she saying this was a proper mark up, she was just trying to show me how much they bring the toes back, heels up and aim to bring the fetlock more upright. She was just doing it as an addition to her advice. I didn’t mean to give the wrong idea. This was just one of the people who uses the apex method and was trying to be helpful. I’m not knocking her as anyone who takes the time to send messages of support when someone has a problem horse very much has my appreciation, it’s just tricky as it doesn’t view the horse and all his history as a whole. I agree he needs better digital cushion behind, it feels very weak, but how they trim looks more extreme than I expected.

 

[Sleipnir]

but what about the actaul trimming, what specifically don't you like about that?

Well, I am not a professional trimmer by no means (as in - I don't trim, just try to educate myself as much as I can), and it seems very odd to me that she promotes the same trim and shape of the hooves for absolutely all of the horses that are trimmed according to this method - trimmed down to be both with a long and steep heel, and extremely short in the toe - so that the horses look almost like they're walking on foal hooves. Seems to look like an unhealthy extreme - there doesn't exist a universal "shape" that will fit absolutely all horses, especially if/even if barefoot.

 

[BBP]

I can’t help but think all the horses with the apex trim are really long in the heels...

That seems to be exactly what they are trying to achieve, a really high heel buttress. They say it creates more room for the digital cushion to develop.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I can’t help but think all the horses with the apex trim are really long in the heels...

Yes that's true. I guess you then have to ask is that a problem or actually a good thing?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Ah, I'm in luck! My horse Apex trims himself!

This is how my PRE naturally grows a hoof. They are upright, boxy, and have a lot of heel. We do make slight adjustments to this so they dont' get too carried away. I did have hoof x-rays done and his angles are actually perfect for him. The vet was surprised as they were some of the best rads he had seen. So these hooves fit to THIS horse. Would this hoof "style" have fit to my Warmblood? Nope. You have to look at the hoof and horse in front of you in its entirety. I agree that a lot of horses have underrun heels, no heels, and quite flat feet, but this other extreme isn't the answer.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I keep posting this on every barefoot post I come across but if you want a trimmer find someone who is a DAEP or at least AANHCP. If your farrier has many performing barefoot horses then also them.

EPAUK and UKNHCP adhere to the NOPS set out by LANTRA (although only EPAUK train now and where you get your DAEP). You know where you are then.

Except, as I believe you know, I went down that route and the EPAUK qualified and registered trimmer was not able to cope with Tb type feet, though he was fine with the IDx.

They became extremely long toe/low heel - the opposite of the Apex trim, although they were in fairly good balance when he took them on.

Extremes are rarely good .

 

[Chinchilla]

....... his angles are actually perfect for him. So these hooves fit to THIS horse. Would this hoof "style" have fit to my Warmblood? Nope. You have to look at the hoof and horse in front of you in its entirety.

The operative phrase here is 'perfect for him' as they may not be perfect for the next horse.
I think this is the crux of the matter; what suits one horse won't suit another and forcing them to fit 'our' ideals is just not right and will cause far more strain and problems in the long run. (Not knocking you or your PRE CC. All mine have very different hoof conformation naturally, but are all sound on it.)

 

[saalsk]

Very true that breeds tend to have very different shapes, so the *one size fits all* doesn't suit them all, especially in their way of going, and their frame. My arab ( 16HH, gangly, floaty, barely lifts his feet off the ground, just skims it ) always grows long toes, but never flare, and is prone to sitting down on the heel, because that seems to be where his foot lands naturally for him. Welsh (13HH, solid, proper stamping stride ) never grows toe or heel, but goes for side flare. Neither need hinds doing bar the occasional rough edge. My previous EP explained about the foot growing in such a way to cope with the way the weight and leg moves, and the way the foot lands. She showed close up videos of the runner Michael Johnson, and explained how his flat footed, leaning backwards slightly style, shouldn't allow him to run fast. But he did. She also showed Steve Cram, head on, and the scary amount of twist in his knees and ankles, as his flat feet landed on the ground. Didn't stop him either ! Part of her training had involved learning about how the foot develops bulk where needed, and slight / sometimes more pronounced unevenness, to allow for the natural imbalance of the body as a whole. Looking at the uneven wear on old/removed horse shoes of some of my previous horses shoes that one wears the centre, and one wears out the outer edge. I wonder if the same is true for people socks - mine end up bald on the ball of my foot after a few months in wellies. Never the heel !

 

[shortstuff99]

I’ve definitely had an interesting few days of reading and getting advice. After Be Positive pointed out the dropped fetlocks (and I’m astounded that we - me, vets, osteos, physios have never noticed it) I am wondering if he suffers from hyper mobility, like humans can. Or just a genetic conformational weakness that makes his hind ligaments lax. Rather than being a strain or damage to the ligaments. It could explain why he never looks quite right behind, why he has no power or push in the canter, why he doesn’t get up easily or like other horses do. Also maybe why he is more anxious and has more field falls than the others. And it might be because of that Hypermobility that he never grows more heel than he has now, regardless of what the trimmer does. I’m purely speculating, there isn’t a lot of literature about Hypermobility in horses, unlike in humans. But I can see from old photos that this is not a new and injury related drop, it’s something he has always done, but idiot me has never seen it. Even now in real life I struggle to see it, it’s only when I view a video in slow motion that it’s so blatantly obvious.

Are you part of the GB PRE group on facebook? There are a few people on there that have had issues with hypermobility in their horses might be worth a post to get some information on what they did etc?

 

[BBP]

Are you part of the GB PRE group on facebook? There are a few people on there that have had issues with hypermobility in their horses might be worth a post to get some information on what they did etc?

Oh really? I am a member so I’ll have a search. Thanks.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

The operative phrase here is 'perfect for him' as they may not be perfect for the next horse.
I think this is the crux of the matter; what suits one horse won't suit another and forcing them to fit 'our' ideals is just not right and will cause far more strain and problems in the long run. (Not knocking you or your PRE CC. All mine have very different hoof conformation naturally, but are all sound on it.)

Yep, that's exactly what I meant.

 

[paddy555]

Well, I am not a professional trimmer by no means (as in - I don't trim, just try to educate myself as much as I can), and it seems very odd to me that she promotes the same trim and shape of the hooves for absolutely all of the horses that are tr in the toe - so that the horses look almost like they're walking on foal hooves. Seems to look like an unhealthy extreme - there doesn't exist a universal "shape" that will fit absolutely all horses, especially if/even if barefoot.

as a person I agree with many of the comments about her. I remember when she first appeared a few years ago she was totally knocked by the "happy hoof" trimming method people.
Whatever she writes she gets criticised. I did join the "anti" whatever it was called FB group when it was first formed. More bitching than knowledgeable trim criticising. I left.


I don't think there is an Apex trim as such. Not in the way there was a Strasser trim or the trim KC taught when he first came to England. They applied a set trim to a foot.
To my mind she applies a trim to suit each horse. I don't see she is inflicting a "trim" on all horses.

From what I understood when she started her method there were a lot of horses sore from having the heels over trimmed and probably the whole foot as well. Bear in mind this was in the US. There were US trimmed horses with no heel, low heels and underun heels. She was advocating a good strong heel buttress. The horse lands heel first.

I don't see from the pictures I have seen that she is advocating high heels, just strong heels. Nor do I see she is doing anything other than taking the toe back something I do all the time.

There are plenty of UK qualified trimmers who are over- trimming, trimming low heels, especially letting the feet run forward. I think people have maybe become too used to long toe/ low heels.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Thanks for typing that Paddy.

Interesting thoughts. I may look up a bit more about it. It's definitely true that long toes and under-run heels are a problem.

 

[Sleipnir]

as a person I agree with many of the comments about her. I remember when she first appeared a few years ago she was totally knocked by the "happy hoof" trimming method people.
Whatever she writes she gets criticised. I did join the "anti" whatever it was called FB group when it was first formed. More bitching than knowledgeable trim criticising. I left.


I don't think there is an Apex trim as such. Not in the way there was a Strasser trim or the trim KC taught when he first came to England. They applied a set trim to a foot.
To my mind she applies a trim to suit each horse. I don't see she is inflicting a "trim" on all horses.

From what I understood when she started her method there were a lot of horses sore from having the heels over trimmed and probably the whole foot as well. Bear in mind this was in the US. There were US trimmed horses with no heel, low heels and underun heels. She was advocating a good strong heel buttress. The horse lands heel first.

I don't see from the pictures I have seen that she is advocating high heels, just strong heels. Nor do I see she is doing anything other than taking the toe back something I do all the time.

There are plenty of UK qualified trimmers who are over- trimming, trimming low heels, especially letting the feet run forward. I think people have maybe become too used to long toe/ low heels.

Thanks, I respect your opinion and admit that I am likely in need of much more education about hoof trimming as I have now.
There are, however, noticeable problems with this system, however, when it comes to business relationships, customer service and payments, even if the trim itself is okay for some horses.