The arguments for and against docking tails

[Tiddlypom]

Starting a new thread so as not to derail any existing ones .

Is tail docking really in any dog's best interests, and if so, why?

As the owner of a pet JRT who thankfully boasts a full tail, my suspicions are that docking continues purely as a historical anachronism because certain people prefer the docked look.

Can anyone who supports docking convince me that it is in the dog's interests to have its tail docked? Btw, any stories of keepers refusing to take undocked dogs on do not count unless backed up with valid evidence as to why they insist on this.

I know that it is 'accepted' that working dogs with undocked tails will suffer tail injuries, and that docking is a humane procedure that prevents an inevitable injury. Is this true, or is docking an outdated practice favoured by a hard core group of people who wish to stick to an old practice that should have been confined to the history books?

 

[MrsMozartleto]

I have dogs that by tradition would've been docked (Rotties and a JRTx) - thankfully they all have their tails. Apart from anything else I can see from a distance what's going on by how the tail is held.

Whilst I i get that there'll be occasional injuries to working dogs, and those really aren't nice at all, is it worth so many others being mutilated?

 

[NR88]

I had one undocked german pointer and he did a lot of damage to his tail. Not just working but in the house too, he damaged it on walls and the radiator.

Speaking with other owners this was very common among the breed. I don't fully understand why because the labs had tails and didn't damage themselves in the house.

The pointer had nerve damage to his tail caused by bashing it but thankfully the tail recovered. I know other owners who's GPs required surgery and docking as adults because the damage was irreparable.

I now have working cockers and they are docked because they are from working homes. It is not the full tail docked, they still have some length.

I have bought the cockers from gamekeepers and field trial competitors who have all said they would never have an undocked cocker because of the damage caused to tails. I have no experience of an undocked working cocker to compare too.

When I think on it I do spiral somewhat. The dogs only "need" their tails docked to do the activities that we want them to do for work or pleasure. If we didn't send them over hill, dale and moor the risk of tail damage doesn't exist. But then the GP damaged his tail repeatedly just in the house. There was nothing wrong with him that would have caused him not to be aware of his tail.

I believe that only that only the best of the best should be bred from. So in working dogs only those that are field trial champions or at least Open winners. My dogs pedigrees are all red with Field Champs. Whilst my dogs are excellent I am not, nor am I committed to the travel involved to make a champion, so it is unlikely that they would become breeding prospects in my eyes. If they were it would be a conundrum because the suitable homes for said pups would only want a docked dog.

I'm also unsure if a vet would dock any litter I has as I do not have a gun license and I don't work on an estate. I haven't looked into that side of what requirements I have to meet to get a litter docked. On the docking paperwork for dogs that I have bought the breeders have all had to give their gun license details.

I honestly do not know what the right answer is. Humans do all sorts of things to animals for our use e.g. shoeing, riding and racing <2 year olds, banding lambs, taking calves off milk cattle. Is it wrong and selfish to dock a dog to save it injury and pain further down the line doing what we want to use them for?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I'm with you on this one OP, we have had JRTs and Rottweilers with complete tails and cannot think how they were a detriment in any way to the dogs. We found the 'handles' on Rotttweilers to be particularly useful,in fact. The JRTs probably would have benefitted from having their dew claws removed, as they grew round and would dig into the legs unless trimmed regularly.

 

[Roxylola]

I was on a spaniel forum. I know of one person who had to have theirs docked once she was mature as she kept injuring it while working. They tried a lot to avoid it but the poor dog was forever bleeding and sore. That said the breeder was also on there and that was the only dog they've bred who had to be docked.
My own spaniel has injured her tip a few times. They don't heal well as it's an awkward spot and they're thugs who don't look.after themselves. She doesn't work though so I just avoid over grown areas on walks for a bit. Takes an age though as she'll bash it daily on all sorts

 

[ycbm]

Is it wring and selfish to dock a dog to save it injury and pain further down the line doing what we want to use them for?

I want to see the numbers before that can be answered. Is it wrong to dock 100% of tails so that what percentage will not subsequently have to have a tail amputated?

This practice was started before antibiotics were available. I suspect that the genuine justification for it has reduced massively. I'm also always struck by the fact that I've never seen a working foxhound with a tail amputated.

 

[ycbm]

My own spaniel has injured her tip a few times. They don't heal well as it's an awkward spot and they're thugs who don't look.after themselves. She doesn't work though so I just avoid over grown areas on walks for a bit. Takes an age though as she'll bash it daily on all sorts

I wonder if, if cutting puppies' tails off hadn't been so easy, selective breeding would have been used to create dogs with shorter tails?

 

[NR88]

I want to see the numbers

There won't be any "numbers" because the working dogs will be docked to save injury and the pet homes who don't "do" anything with their dogs will not count.

The number of undocked working performance bred dogs will be minimal if at all?

 

[ycbm]

There won't be any "numbers" because the working dogs will be docked to save injury and the pet homes who don't "do" anything with their dogs will not count.

The number of undocked working performance bred dogs will be minimal if at all?

Exactly.

No evidence at all and yet the practice continues.
.

 

[NR88]

Exactly.
.

You've lost me.

You want dogs left undocked to be hurt and injured to prove why they are currently docked?

 

[Roxylola]

I wonder if, if cutting puppies' tails off hadn't been so easy, selective breeding would have been used to create dogs with shorter tails?

Possibly, or stronger more hairy ones perhaps. It seems very specific to breeds and spaniels at least do have ridiculously waggy tails. I'm not pro docking, but there is a genuine issue.
Its a major procedure when the dogs are older so I do understand why people do an entire litter when they're tiny. I'm not of the belief they don't feel it, but they'll heal a lot quicker at least.

 

[ycbm]

You've lost me.

You want dogs left undocked to be hurt and injured to prove why they are currently docked?

No, I want dogs left undocked so we know if a thousand puppies are being mutilated in order to save one older dog from having a damaged tail amputated, or how many.

This is a tradition which is centuries old. Modern veterinary medicine has moved on a long way. How many tails are being amputated because antibiotic spray wasn't around in 1700?
.

 

[stangs]

As someone with no working dog experience - what exactly would cause all these wounds while working?

 

[Prancerpoos]

Assuming the spaniels get damaged tails because of the long hair - why not just trim the hair?

 

[Roxylola]

As someone with no working dog experience - what exactly would cause all these wounds while working?

I don't work my dog, but spaniels just go through anything. So they bull their way in to a thorn bush wagging like mad the entire time and either bash the end of their tail (that's cold and wet because they break ice to swim) on enough hard bits that it ends up breaking the skin, or on actual sharp bits of thorns/bracken etc.
Either way in the moment they dont care a bit and continue to bash the living daylights out of it unless you spot it and stop them. Once it's damaged though its really hard to heal - they bash it on doors, radiators, walls etc and it opens up again.
@Petalpoopuddings if anything the hair protects, they're just careless thugs

 

[Prancerpoos]

Thanks @Roxylola , I thought it might be the hair as labs don’t seem to have the same issues. Maybe gundog breeders should start trying to breed less-waggy tailed dogs!

 

[NR88]

Assuming the spaniels get damaged tails because of the long hair - why not just trim the hair?

Hair is nothing to do with it.

They go through all sorts of thick undergrowth and over all sorts of going.

Has anyone who actually works their dogs, be it for work or sport, commented on is this thread? It read like, at most, pet owners and people who have no breed or working experience. Surely it is those with first hand experience who can offer facts rather than the assumptions baned about on here by people with no first hand knowledge.

Whilst I have varying opinions I respect the opinions of those with decades of successful first hand breeding, training and working experience

 

[ester]

spaniels work differently to labs. (bull chinashop)

 

[Moobli]

I’m neither pro nor against docking, possibly because I don’t own traditionally docked breeds so don’t have a strong opinion either way.
I do live on a shooting estate though so witness working gun dogs regularly. The motion and method of working spaniels is such that they are the ones entering the thickest cover and their tails never stop moving, hence the potential fir damage. I believe from speaking to those who own working spaniels that if they are not docked it regularly leads to injuries and then amputation of the tail, which is a much bigger operation on an adult dog. I have no idea on numbers involved but presume it must be a large enough number to have constituted docking in the first place.
I don’t think other traditionally docked breeds such a Rottweiler, Doberman, Boxer etc can be compared to spaniels as their docks were for aesthetic reasons in recent years and not for any practical working purpose.

 

[Roxylola]

There are successful lines with full tails working - Sgurr dogs but being in Scotland they've banned docking longer than we had. However the tail amputee I referred to was a sgurr dog so it's not necessarily a guarantee

 

[SOS]

I’m actually very on the fence with this. I have people sometimes ask me my opinion and I have seen my puppies have their tails docked.

The problem with docking tails later in life isn’t really lack of antibiotics or anything like that, it’s the fact that due to the high movement nature and the tail being an ‘end’ the wounds are often extremely hard to heal as they are too vascular for their own good and get fluid build up. They then burst up, blood goes everywhere and often multiple ops are needed to heal and the dog rested strictly to avoid re opening the wound. Even if you don’t dock the tail originally this can happen with big wounds and end up leading to a docking anyway.

This is not ideal in a working dog as they then can’t work and even in pet dogs can be stressful for all involved. Older dogs are also more aware of having their tail docked and can chew at it (they are notoriously hard to bandage and even with collars on they can often get them). Adult tail docking for whatever reason is a bit of a nightmare and not something we like doing in practice due to the high probability something will go wrong.

That said, watching 3-5 day old puppies scream as their tails are chopped off is not a good alternative either. They are too young to have any pain relief or anaesthetic and a small clamp or stitch is left on to stop blood flow. Complications are rare IME. They heal incredibly quick mostly but very occasionally the shock so early in life can make a puppy fail to thrive. Lots of vets I know refuse to do it but I worked for a year at a large small/farm vets and two vets would perform docking regularly on working puppy dogs. They used to ask for a gun license to support this but ultimately we had no proof they were going to working homes bar the breeders word.

The British veterinary association does not support tail docking and says evidence does not support it. However I don’t feel banning it would be in the best interest of all dogs. See ear cropping, people still find a way to do this barbaric practice. I would like to see more research done into healing tail injuries later in life. But ultimately the tail docking in puppies must be improved to include anaesthesia in some form and pain relief.

 

[DabDab]

I understood that for the likes of terriers it was more to enable them to be pulled from a hole by their tail (without injury) than because they tended to injure it themselves.

I have two docked terriers and one undocked. The jrt x might be a natural bob (abandoned litter at 4 weeks so I don't know the breeder), because it is an extraordinarily neat job for a puppy that ended up abandoned in a box and a couple of the others had full tail. The Westie has an awful dock that still causes her discomfort if you touch the end of it and is therefore a nightmare to clip/trim. She was a re-home so again I have no idea why it was done. I don't think I've ever known of working terriers damage their tail of their own accord, whereas spaniels and pointers are well known for it. I have a farmer friend with a couple of full tail springers and he keeps the tail of one wrapped when out on the farm because of the damage she does to it.

So yes, I think there is certainly a number of dogs who are docked just because rather than to protect the tail from future damage, and others where there is good reason for it.

 

[NR88]

There are successful lines with full tails working - Sgurr dogs but being in Scotland they've banned docking longer than we had. However the tail amputee I referred to was a sgurr dog so it's not necessarily a guarantee

You can dock/shorten in Scotland again since 2018. Only spaniel (springer/cocker) and HPR breeds. There must be evidence that the intended use of the pups is shooting; hence the requirement of gun license proof. I do not know the english/welsh/Irish requirements.

Anaesthetic is very rarely used in this procedure so I'm not sure why that keeps being brought up.

Tail docking and shortening is a preventative measure. An attempt to stop the dog incurring damage, pain and possibly a more serious surgery requirement.

So really the questions should be about our use of dogs. If we didn't put them in that position (excluding GP and radiator issues!) then there would be no requirement to dock them. Should all hunting be outright banned?

It is not my livelihood or sport* so it would not impact me but it would impact many, many others.

* I compete in field trials but I do not shoot. I'd be happy if there were dummies used instead.

 

[MurphysMinder]

There was a poster here a few years back with a springer with an undocked tail. He damaged it whilst working and as I recall after a very lengthy time of treatment he had to have his tail docked because the end was damaged beyond repair.

I have to admit it took me ages to get used to rotties and dobes in particular with docked tails, they just didn't look right to me. JRTs and the like not so much, their tails seem to "fit" better. We had a litter of JRTs years ago and they were docked, at just a couple of days old in the nest. It took a few seconds and they honestly just squeaked the once, I have heard pups make far more fuss when mum stands on them, and in recent years when being microchipped.

 

[Roxylola]

@NR88 I wasn't aware the rules had changed in Scotland. It was a blanket ban so something must have prompted the change.
I see your point regarding should we use dogs for hunting or not. Again though, mine has damaged hers to the point I was considering if amputation would be best for her because its so hard to heal once damaged. She's never worked a day in her life but regularly ends up with it bleeding just from being a thug on a walk - I've just got more selective where we walk.
You can keep the dog out of the field you can't take the drive out of the dog

 

[MurphysMinder]

I want to see the numbers before that can be answered. Is it wrong to dock 100% of tails so that what percentage will not subsequently have to have a tail amputated?

This practice was started before antibiotics were available. I suspect that the genuine justification for it has reduced massively. I'm also always struck by the fact that I've never seen a working foxhound with a tail amputated.

I have seen at least 2 with amputated tails, maybe it depends on what sort of country they hunt.

 

[Goldenstar]

Foxhounds do damage their tails you do see ones that have had to have a bit taken off as do labradors we have had two labs with tail issues one had the tip amputated eventually the other my father got right by gluing all the hair over the spot it healed perfectly and was never an issue again .
I don’t know why people don’t put serum on spaniels tail hair to keep to untangled and slippy .
Dogs like short haired pointers have thin skin and it can be a real issue .
The mess a dog with a bleeding tail makes in a house is epic .

 

[skinnydipper]

Anaesthetic is very rarely used in this procedure so I'm not sure why that keeps being brought up.

Because it is relevant to the discussion.

"Advocates of tail docking claim that it does not cause pain or discomfort, as the nervous system of puppies is not fully developed. This is not the case; the basic nervous system of a dog is fully developed at birth. Evidence indicates that puppies have similar sensitivity to pain as adult dogs. Docking a puppy’s tail involves cutting through muscles, tendons, up to seven pairs of highly sensitive nerves and severing bone and cartilage connections. Tail docking is usually carried out without any anaesthesia or analgesia (pain relief). Puppies give repeated intense shrieking vocalisations the moment the tail is cut off and during stitching of the wound, indicating that they experience substantial pain. Inflammation and damage to the tissues also cause ongoing pain while the wound heals. There is also the risk of infection or other complications associated with this unnecessary surgery.

Tail docking can also cause unnecessary and avoidable long term chronic pain and distress to the dog."

https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-are-the-animal-welfare-issues-with-docking-dogs-tails/

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

Brig was working stock so docked, he never injured his tail but typical spaniel, went through any kind of cover and had multiple injuries, tore off a stop pad, opened up his belly. The vet told me 90% of injuries he dealt with were springers. I’ve watched mine go straight through undergrowth whilst labs go round, ime.

Bear repeatedly injured his tail, it used to bleed all the time. If you watch a springer run, the tail goes in a circle, I’m not sure other dogs have this movement.

The current 2 are working docked as they’re from working lines. They’re also dew clawed, which I’m on the fence about, how will they hold pigs’ ears?! Bear has had multiple procedures on his dew claws, so at least we won’t have that.

 

[Goldenstar]

We always used to get dew claws removed form Dads litters of puppies it was just a normal thing to do .
We did one dog who had an awful injury to one of his it was very sore and took a while to get right .
However I am not sure it’s a good enough reason to have them removed .