The arguments for and against docking tails

[MurphysMinder]

Because it is relevant to the discussion.

"Advocates of tail docking claim that it does not cause pain or discomfort, as the nervous system of puppies is not fully developed. This is not the case; the basic nervous system of a dog is fully developed at birth. Evidence indicates that puppies have similar sensitivity to pain as adult dogs. Docking a puppy’s tail involves cutting through muscles, tendons, up to seven pairs of highly sensitive nerves and severing bone and cartilage connections. Tail docking is usually carried out without any anaesthesia or analgesia (pain relief). Puppies give repeated intense shrieking vocalisations the moment the tail is cut off and during stitching of the wound, indicating that they experience substantial pain. Inflammation and damage to the tissues also cause ongoing pain while the wound heals. There is also the risk of infection or other complications associated with this unnecessary surgery.

Tail docking can also cause unnecessary and avoidable long term chronic pain and distress to the dog."

https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-are-the-animal-welfare-issues-with-docking-dogs-tails/

As I understood it, when tails were docked in newborns they weren’t stitched ? Certainly not in the only litter I witnessed

 

[twiggy2]

Hair is nothing to do with it.

They go through all sorts of thick undergrowth and over all sorts of going.

Has anyone who actually works their dogs, be it for work or sport, commented on is this thread? It read like, at most, pet owners and people who have no breed or working experience. Surely it is those with first hand experience who can offer facts rather than the assumptions baned about on here by people with no first hand knowledge.

Whilst I have varying opinions I respect the opinions of those with decades of successful first hand breeding, training and working experience

My other half had spaniels for many many years only one was docked and that was due to jnjury as an adult when working. All his dogs have worked jn scotland and the cover is different here to most parts of England with far less bramble and white and blackthorn so maybe damage is less frequent in part due to that?

There are successful lines with full tails working - Sgurr dogs but being in Scotland they've banned docking longer than we had. However the tail amputee I referred to was a sgurr dog so it's not necessarily a guarantee

You can dock certain breeds in Scotland if you show they will be working dogs.

You can dock/shorten in Scotland again since 2018. Only spaniel (springer/cocker) and HPR breeds. There must be evidence that the intended use of the pups is shooting; hence the requirement of gun license proof. I do not know the english/welsh/Irish requirements.

Anaesthetic is very rarely used in this procedure so I'm not sure why that keeps being brought up.

Tail docking and shortening is a preventative measure. An attempt to stop the dog incurring damage, pain and possibly a more serious surgery requirement.

So really the questions should be about our use of dogs. If we didn't put them in that position (excluding GP and radiator issues!) then there would be no requirement to dock them. Should all hunting be outright banned?

It is not my livelihood or sport* so it would not impact me but it would impact many, many others.

* I compete in field trials but I do not shoot. I'd be happy if there were dummies used instead.

I believe these days that the majority of vets do use aneasthetic or local pain relief during the procedure or indeed both other these.
For what it's worth a vet I knew and worked for for many many years was a hunting, shooting fishing man, he had labs himself but neither him nor his partner agreed with docking puppies routinely the procedure was done at the practise to prevent people doing it or getting it done by non medically trained people, the cost was kept very low for the same reason.
Working or not working is not really relevant either spaniels in particular will go to cover in their frantic life loving way its what they do birds or no birds so unless you are going to walk them where no cover is avaliable then there is a risk (albeit small IMO)

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Anaesthetic is very rarely used in this procedure so I'm not sure why that keeps being brought up.

I guess it keeps being brought up exactly because anaesthetic is very rarely used when docking the tails of very young pups. Why is that?

 

[skinnydipper]

The mess a dog with a bleeding tail makes in a house is epic .

If you watch a springer run, the tail goes in a circle, I’m not sure other dogs have this movement.

Happy longdogs do it and can split a tail when spinning it in the house, leaving the walls looking like the aftermath of a chainsaw massacre.

It healed and she kept her tail.

 

[NR88]

Working or not working is not really relevant either spaniels in particular will go to cover in their frantic life loving way its what they do birds or no birds so unless you are going to walk them where no cover is avaliable then there is a risk (albeit small IMO

Working dogs will predominantly be in this type of going and for long days (when trained and fit) opposed to an hour or twos walk in a pet home

 

[twiggy2]

I guess it keeps being brought up exactly because anaesthetic is very rarely used when docking the tails of very young pups. Why is that?

The aneasthetic in my understanding is the most risky part of the procedure, it certainly used to be.
Where I worked pups would get a whiff of gass and also have local pain relief to numb the area and provide some pain relief after the procedure too.

 

[Prancerpoos]

I have read that dogs may get phantom pain in their non-existent tail, similar to that experienced by humans who lose a limb. Has anyone actually noticed that in their dog?

 

[twiggy2]

Working dogs will predominantly be in this type of going and for long days (when trained and fit) opposed to an hour or twos walk in a pet home

If a pet spaniel is walked adequately daily jn areas with cover it probably over the year spends a similar amount of time battering through cover as a working dog does in the working season.
It all depends on the owner and area is my point k here for example some dogs will be out all day every withtbeir owners including the dog accompanying them when riding out.
My point is spaniels love cover workers or not.

 

[Clodagh]

I have a Labrador who thinks she’s a spaniel and she had to have her tail amputated at 2 years old after nearly a year of trying to fix the injury. Spaniels have longer thinner tails than labs so are more prone, and work in thick cover.
I agree most dogs don’t work and don’t need doing, but in that case it should be easier to ask a vet to amputate an inured or broken tail.
Tawny was in real intense pain until it was removed in spite of endless drugs and wrappings. The blood in the house was not part of the decision, nor was the fact she was prettier with a tail. It had to be done and she was so much happier once it didn’t hurt.

 

[twiggy2]

I have read that dogs may get phantom pain in their non-existent tail, similar to that experienced by humans who lose a limb. Has anyone actually noticed that in their dog?

I have seen what appears to be that in dogs and cats with amputated limbs can't see why it wouldn't be the same with a removed tail.

 

[Clodagh]

I have read that dogs may get phantom pain in their non-existent tail, similar to that experienced by humans who lose a limb. Has anyone actually noticed that in their dog?

I think T does sometimes, she looks uncomfortable and twitchy and you have to massage her stump and bum.

 

[Cortez]

I once held a litter of Rottweiler pups for a vet to dock. It made me feel sick, and the vet wasn't happy to be doing it either (this was in America, where they also like to crop ears on many breeds). No anaesthetic, but he superglued the skin to close the wounds. Barbaric.

 

[twiggy2]

Maybe if as has been mentioned removal of a damaged tail on an adult dog was automatic if requested more people would be happier to take the chance on leaving a full tail on Pups?
Its costs a lot more to remove an adult tail compared to a pups tail too as it is a bigger surgery on a bigger animal, maybe it should be a loss leader for some vets to encourage leaving the whole as pups an assessing how many actually have an issue as they grow.

 

[pistolpete]

Horrible practice. Like dew claw removal. Barbaric. Can’t understand how removing parts of animals conscious and with no pain relief can be okay! I worked at a vets thirty years ago and saw it done so I do know what happens. Ugh!! All for fashion! Do you ever stub your toe? Maybe it should have been amputated at birth with no anaesthesia..

 

[CorvusCorax]

There was a poster here a few years back with a springer with an undocked tail. He damaged it whilst working and as I recall after a very lengthy time of treatment he had to have his tail docked because the end was damaged beyond repair.

Yes was going to cite this user. One you start taking bits off an adult tail, it's really hard to heal. There was another user with a mixed breed who was left with hardly anything as the wound kept getting reinfected and they kept having to take more and more.

 

[Clodagh]

Yes was going to cite this user. One you start taking bits off an adult tail, it's really hard to heal. There was another user with a mixed breed who was left with hardly anything as the wound kept getting reinfected and they kept having to take more and more.

My vet, a gundog man, took T’s off really short as he said it has to be short enough not to hit anything when they wag, so shorter than their buttocks are wide. I was appalled when I picked her up but of all the adult amputations I know she’s the only one that it healed quickly and easily.

 

[blackcob]

I had no strong feelings about docking and possibly would have mounted a casual defence in favour of it as a countryside/working dog thing until I actually saw it done, and now regard it as a barbaric mutilation. If tail injuries are that much of a problem, breeders should be aiming for shorter/thicker/more densely furred tails, or (with my controversial hat on) examine the nature of the work they are asking the dogs to do, if there's so much fallout. The system of producing a gun licence or similar as evidence is also pretty farcical as there's no additional checks or balances at the point of sale to ensure that they actually go to working homes.

I have a breed that was traditionally docked, for aesthetic rather than working reasons, and am very glad that most have their tails now. I say most as there is a bobtail gene in the breed so naturally bobtailed dogs can be selected for if desired.

 

[Clodagh]

I think that if a breeder genuinely knows they are going to working homes only, with several pre booked pups, then it’s ok. Probably not workable though.
The breeder should be present though, it is a disgusting process and made me feel sick when I saw a litter of terriers done bitd.

 

[Jenko109]

I had no idea it was done without anaesthetic. Gross.

 

[Nicnac]

My Springer had some length taken off on day two by a vet. Well before I knew of his existence.
The litter came from working stock. If I'd had a choice I would have left it full. He's not 6 months yet so not working but seeing how he is in undergrowth I do get why it's done.

I had the docking conversation with my sister yesterday as her Boston terrier only has a tiny stump but apparently they are born like that?

 

[blackcob]

I had the docking conversation with my sister yesterday as her Boston terrier only has a tiny stump but apparently they are born like that?

Bostons have a gene causing a short screw tail, I think DVL2 same as bulldogs and French bulldogs - unfortunately this is often associated with malformations in the rest of the spine (hemivertebrae).

 

[Clodagh]

I had no idea it was done without anaesthetic. Gross.

I don’t think it is now? I think they inject local into the cut site.

 

[planete]

I have successfully healed a tail so damaged the vet thought it might need amputation. The 15 week old saluki pup was a rescue and we do not know how the injury occurred. Antibiotics and melolin dressings were key to the healing. It took a few weeks and a lot of tricky bandaging but it worked. I would not like to deal with this kind of injury on a regular basis though but there must be a humane way of carrying out amputations if they are at all needed. I could not have a litter of pups and subject them to an unaesthetised operation. Edit: just seen Clodagh's post.

 

[NR88]

I don’t think it is now? I think they inject local into the cut site.

It isn't used "as standard" in pups <5 days. Docking should be done by that age so I've no idea of the procedure with older pups.

 

[PapaverFollis]

The two spaniels I know that had adult tail amputations were pet dogs. There's a reason it was re-allowed for certain breeds in Scotland. I think it is a tight call in the balance of suffering here which is why it gets so heated in discussion at times. Which side you fall will depend on what you have witnessed I suppose. I will always look for a docked spaniel in preference when looking for myself. Not because I'm a barbarian. But because my friends' spaniels really suffered with their damaged full tails and it was really upsetting for my friends to deal with. No, I don't take any joy in the idea of tiny puppies suffering either, but it is a finite quantity. The adult dogs with damaged tails, it just went on and on and on and on.

I think the fact it was allowed again in Scotland after a number of years of being banned shows how it is really not a clear cut picture.

 

[Clodagh]

It isn't used "as standard" in pups <5 days. Docking should be done by that age so I've no idea of the procedure with older pups.

Oh.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I remember in the early days after docking was banned, seeing a boxer at I think Crufts. He had the most ridiculous long spindly tail that he held upright and it curled over his back. I remember thinking that if docking hadn't been a 'thing' in boxers possibly better tails might have been bred for. Never seen another quite so ridiculous so may be they are now.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I've just looked on the BVA website for their current stance on the routine docking of uninjured puppy tails. They are strongly against it. But still the practice persists, and vets are still found who will perform it .

https://www.bva.co.uk/take-action/our-policies/tail-docking-in-dogs/

'What's our view?
Tail docking should be banned as a procedure for all breeds of dogs, unless it is carried out by a veterinary surgeon for medical reasons (eg injury).

Puppies suffer unnecessary pain as a result of tail docking and are deprived of a vital form of canine expression in later life. Research published in Vet Record found that approximately 500 dogs would need to be docked in order to prevent a single tail injury.

We continue to call for a complete ban on tail docking of puppies for non-therapeutic reasons across the UK.'

 

[pistolpete]

People doing it for fashion a friend had her GSP done for how it looks!! Arghhh!! Mutilation!

 

[maisie06]

I have read that dogs may get phantom pain in their non-existent tail, similar to that experienced by humans who lose a limb. Has anyone actually noticed that in their dog?

Nope and have always had dogs with docked tails.....