The best piaffe ever?

[Mearas]

Is anyone interested in discussing this? I have posted two videos of piaffe.

The first is from the 2012 Olympics;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7zZu71ckgw

The second is Nuno Oliveira which I have put up because he is recognised by many as a expert in the riding of piaffe and passage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiTTyi2He8&list=PLNljeJoOek0ndiXeoq7FXikiOYn-faz2r


I think it would be nice if we could avoid personal comments about the horse and there riders just an analysis of the riding, training, biomechanics, confirmation even personal preference based on the style of movement, training etc. would be really really interesting. Please let me know if you think this is not a fair comparison and if it would be better to analyse different videos to the ones I have proposed?

 

[Mearas]

Perhaps this is a better piaffe video of Nuno Oliveiira for discussion as their is not so much of it, or perhaps not enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y590LHLCISU

 

[Mearas]

Would this be a fairer comparison?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFPyag3q0Fk

 

[Mearas]

Would this be a fairer comparison also 2012 Olympics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFPyag3q0Fk

Sorry didn't mean to post twice.

 

[HashRouge]

I was JUST about to post and say you can't talk about piaffe and the London Olympics and NOT mention Rubi! That horse was born to piaffe, absolutely love him!

 

[JFTDWS]

I was JUST about to post and say you can't talk about piaffe and the London Olympics and NOT mention Rubi! That horse was born to piaffe, absolutely love him!

Me too

 

[Mearas]

Would this be a fairer comparison?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFPyag3q0Fk

I agree but would love to know what you like about it.

 

[TheMule]

I love Rubi and he has a very natural piaffe with a great ability to sit, but his piaffe is always triangulated.
Most competition warmbloods have a very manufactured piaffe, generated by the stick on the legs, taught more like a trick than a properly developed true collection. It drops behind the vertical (something true piaffe would never do as it's the ultimate in uphill collection) and tends to create double bouncing behind.

 

[HashRouge]

I agree but would love to know what you like about it.

Basically what TheMule said - I like it because it looks very natural. I'm rarely a fan of piaffe done by anything other then a PRE or a Luso tbh

 

[Mearas]

Ok I will go first to put my head on the guillotine. I like Rubii's piaffe because the weight comes underneath (see lowering of the croup) there is very little weight in the shoulder and Goncalo Carvalho allows the head to come forward to enable the horse to bring his fore legs through. In the other video the horses in general come into the piaffe with the weight in the shoulder so the horse cannot bring the forelegs through. Even when they try to sit underneath they cannot bring the fore legs through because the the head carriage is restricted.

 

[TheMule]

Demonstrated really clearly in that slow mo vid- I only watched the first two horses but both were severely on the forehand in the piaffe.

 

[chestnut cob]

Demonstrated really clearly in that slow mo vid- I only watched the first two horses but both were severely on the forehand in the piaffe.

Yes - even my untrained eye noticed that. They came down heavily onto each foreleg with v little seeming to happen behind, and I didn't see any real "sit". Also both looked, to me, a bit dipped behind the saddle so not really using themselves correctly.

The slo-mo vid was really interesting!

 

[Fides]

In the Olympics vid they also seem to be disunited in the trot. It's not 2 beat but 3 beat and sometimes 4...

 

[TarrSteps]

Hasn't there been a discussion recently about piaffe, I think, similar to the one about pirouettes? To the effect that modern digital slow motion highlights that what we perceive is happening, even what is enshrined in the rules, is not necessarily what is actually happening. I can't remember the details but I'm sure the piaffe one had something to do with weight distribution.

 

[Sol]

Just wanted to add this link because I really do rather like this horse... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdBkHEqatzA&list=FL1G-cnZeoun94G_XJgywRVA&index=7
And generally think it's a pretty cool video. There's a longer one too I think of it doing other stuff, but I daren't look for it for fear of not escaping from the screen for a while

 

[Mearas]

Love this video Sol. I totally agree with you how hard it is to get away from the screen

 

[_GG_]

Perhaps this is a better piaffe video of Nuno Oliveiira for discussion as their is not so much of it, or perhaps not enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y590LHLCISU

That's not a piaffe for 90% of the clip.

I love Rubi and he has a very natural piaffe with a great ability to sit, but his piaffe is always triangulated.
Most competition warmbloods have a very manufactured piaffe, generated by the stick on the legs, taught more like a trick than a properly developed true collection. It drops behind the vertical (something true piaffe would never do as it's the ultimate in uphill collection) and tends to create double bouncing behind.

If you look at the chestnut at the beginning of the first link you see just this. It dips regularly...because it is not in true collection, it has just been taught to do something with his legs that is very very hard when the front end isn't actually light and carried by the hind.

Ok I will go first to put my head on the guillotine. I like Rubii's piaffe because the weight comes underneath (see lowering of the croup) there is very little weight in the shoulder and Goncalo Carvalho allows the head to come forward to enable the horse to bring his fore legs through. In the other video the horses in general come into the piaffe with the weight in the shoulder so the horse cannot bring the forelegs through. Even when they try to sit underneath they cannot bring the fore legs through because the the head carriage is restricted.

The head usually has to be restricted because if it was given, the movement would be lost or the horse would be out of the arena. Yes, that's a big generalisation but hey ho.

There are warmbloods more than capable of a good piaffe and I actually don't think it's only possible to get a really good piaffe out of Iberian types. It's more about the training for me.

 

[_GG_]

Perhaps this is a better piaffe video of Nuno Oliveiira for discussion as their is not so much of it, or perhaps not enough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y590LHLCISU

I love Rubi and he has a very natural piaffe with a great ability to sit, but his piaffe is always triangulated.
Most competition warmbloods have a very manufactured piaffe, generated by the stick on the legs, taught more like a trick than a properly developed true collection. It drops behind the vertical (something true piaffe would never do as it's the ultimate in uphill collection) and tends to create double bouncing behind.

Just wanted to add this link because I really do rather like this horse... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdBkHEqatzA&list=FL1G-cnZeoun94G_XJgywRVA&index=7
And generally think it's a pretty cool video. There's a longer one too I think of it doing other stuff, but I daren't look for it for fear of not escaping from the screen for a while

That's what Nuno Oliviera was attempting in the link above...but didn't come close to managing.

Thanks for that link...quite astonishing.

 

[Mearas]

The head usually has to be restricted because if it was given, the movement would be lost or the horse would be out of the arena. Yes, that's a big generalisation but hey ho.

There are warmbloods more than capable of a good piaffe and I actually don't think it's only possible to get a really good piaffe out of Iberian types. It's more about the training for me.

Agreed _GG_ but these are Olympic horses.

 

[_GG_]

Agreed _GG_ but these are Olympic horses.

Quite a few of which had little explosions...lots of people go for hot horses with big power...that has to be massively contained to get them to do their version of forced piaffe...so if they release the pressure that keeps the horse there...bye bye horse.

Shame, I bet most of the horses could do a perfectly decent piaffe if developed properly over a few more years, not forced and rushed for medal chasing!

 

[twiggy2]

Would this be a fairer comparison?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFPyag3q0Fk

I found this painful to watch, the horse looks very tense and unhappy and the beat is mostly 3 or 4 time so not piaffe at all

 

[Wheels]

Could someone explain why nuno's horse and the grey horse above are slightly travelling backwards in the piaffe? I had thought the horse should be slightly moving forwards or on the spot? Or is this slight backwards movement just part of the training to get them even more on the hocks?

 

[twiggy2]

Just wanted to add this link because I really do rather like this horse... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdBkHEqatzA&list=FL1G-cnZeoun94G_XJgywRVA&index=7
And generally think it's a pretty cool video. There's a longer one too I think of it doing other stuff, but I daren't look for it for fear of not escaping from the screen for a while

this is amazing

 

[_GG_]

Could someone explain why nuno's horse and the grey horse above are slightly travelling backwards in the piaffe? I had thought the horse should be slightly moving forwards or on the spot? Or is this slight backwards movement just part of the training to get them even more on the hocks?

It's a deliberate movement. Nuno's horse is not doing it properly at all though...they grey is doing it very well. Rushed a little but very well. Nuno's horse actually looks uncomfortably tense and rushed and his back legs don't seem to know what the hell they are supposed to be doing.

 

[Mearas]

There are two videos of Nuno on this thread, what about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiTTyi2He8&list=PLNljeJoOek0ndiXeoq7FXikiOYn-faz2r at 3.59 or 4.55?

 

[_GG_]

There are two videos of Nuno on this thread, what about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiTTyi2He8&list=PLNljeJoOek0ndiXeoq7FXikiOYn-faz2r at 3.59 or 4.55?

Not that impressed. Horse hurried and not happy and the rhythm is non existent.

 

[Lovetoride]

I have seen this in the past rather a cool video. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Auslander]

Could someone explain why nuno's horse and the grey horse above are slightly travelling backwards in the piaffe? I had thought the horse should be slightly moving forwards or on the spot? Or is this slight backwards movement just part of the training to get them even more on the hocks?

It's deliberate, and demonstrates how perfectly the horse is on the aids and in tune with the rider. Takes a very very well educated horse, and a wonderful rider. It's a bit showboaty, but lovely to watch when done properly.

The horse I learned to ride properly in out in Germany was able to do this, and he could also piaffe til he sat down. I first experienced this sitting on him in the stable with no tack on - his trainer legged me up, asked him to piaffe, and before i knew it he was sitting down like a large white dog. I ended up flat on my back in the straw behind him!

 

[twiggy2]

There are two videos of Nuno on this thread, what about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiTTyi2He8&list=PLNljeJoOek0ndiXeoq7FXikiOYn-faz2r at 3.59 or 4.55?

the horse is not even happy to be handled at the beginning of the video, there is no grace or elegance in the whole video, it is just aclip of a horse being hauled about by the lump of metal in its mouth.

I agree with GG on the complete lack of rythym and a rushed and unhappy horse. When you add the tension shown by the horse this is a clip of many of the things I try to avoid whenever I sit on a horse.

 

[TarrSteps]

I had an interesting experience with passage and piaffe in the 80s. I was working at an Olympic trial in Canada. At that point the standard was pretty low and, save for a few with international experience, there weren't many horses that had a piaffe at all. (In '88 two horses on that team showed no real piaffe in their tests at all). A chestnut horse came in that looked too green in its way of going to even be there, wild and unlevel in the extensions, not submissive in the transitions etc. Everyone was wondering what the hell the woman was doing there. Until she got to the p&p tour. . .it was unreal! The horse sat down and produced international quality work. Everyone was obviously stunned. Then it went right back to looking like it shouldn't even be there.

Jaap Pot was head of the GJ so hardly an uneducated judge and even he was at a loss to explain what we'd seen. So much for the movements being the end result of a training program.