The best piaffe ever?

[Mearas]

Could someone explain why nuno's horse and the grey horse above are slightly travelling backwards in the piaffe? I had thought the horse should be slightly moving forwards or on the spot? Or is this slight backwards movement just part of the training to get them even more on the hocks?

This is an older movement in terms of dressage although I don't think it has a specific name. There were quite a lot of movements Wheels that used to be preformed but they dropped out of fashion at the beginning of the last century, like canter reinback.

 

[_GG_]

I had an interesting experience with passage and piaffe in the 80s. I was working at an Olympic trial in Canada. At that point the standard was pretty low and, save for a few with international experience, there weren't many horses that had a piaffe at all. (In '88 two horses on that team showed no real piaffe in their tests at all). A chestnut horse came in that looked too green in its way of going to even be there, wild and unlevel in the extensions, not submissive in the transitions etc. Everyone was wondering what the hell the woman was doing there. Until she got to the p&p tour. . .it was unreal! The horse sat down and produced international quality work. Everyone was obviously stunned. Then it went right back to looking like it shouldn't even be there.

Jaap Pot was head of the GJ so hardly an uneducated judge and even he was at a loss to explain what we'd seen. So much for the movements being the end result of a training program.

There are 3 and 4 yr olds in spain doing amazing P&P that haven't even got a balanced canter yet. Some horses just have their niche

 

[ihatework]

The nuno video is painful for me to watch. I turned it off.

The grey is lovely.

The chestnut, well I agree with the majority a manufactured 'piaffe' showing little sit

 

[Goldenstar]

Just wanted to add this link because I really do rather like this horse... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdBkHEqatzA&list=FL1G-cnZeoun94G_XJgywRVA&index=7
And generally think it's a pretty cool video. There's a longer one too I think of it doing other stuff, but I daren't look for it for fear of not escaping from the screen for a while

Imagine the strain on the hind susoensories doing that .
Very lovely horse .

 

[Mearas]

Not sure if anyone is interested in this video but it shows some terre a terre'- which is essentially a 4 beat canter on the spot and was highly valued exercse for it's ability to set a horse back before a jump. The rider in this video takes it further and starts going backwards which was sometimes practiced,this could be considered a galop en arriere,which is a canter backwards. Think I might prefer it on a softer surface though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDOqu1wr534

 

[Goldenstar]

Not sure if anyone is interested in this video but it shows some terre a terre'- which is essentially a 4 beat canter on the spot and was highly valued exercse for it's ability to set a horse back before a jump. The rider in this video takes it further and starts going backwards which was sometimes practiced,this could be considered a galop en arriere,which is a canter backwards. Think I might prefer it on a softer surface though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDOqu1wr534

Frankly I think that's pretty horrid .
The horses face says it all .

 

[ihatework]

Frankly I think that's pretty horrid .
The horses face says it all .

Yup. Another video to turn off sooner rather than later

 

[Mearas]

Frankly I think that's pretty horrid .
The horses face says it all .

Know what you mean Goldenstar. But I am not sure if it is just concentration on the horses face or as you say discomfort. Sometimes I wonder if it is because we are not used to seeing these movements anymore that they look uncomfortable??

Here is some video of canter reinback which you may find more acceptable? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0SsK8-QQj4#t=14

 

[Mearas]

Yup. Another video to turn off sooner rather than later

But is this any worse than the horses struggling to do piaffe in the 2012 video?

 

[TarrSteps]

There are 3 and 4 yr olds in spain doing amazing P&P that haven't even got a balanced canter yet. Some horses just have their niche

What was interesting about this horse was it wasn't Spanish, it was an 80s edition Canadian dressage horse so possibly a warmblood of questionable quality by current standards, but I have some memory it wasn't even that, it was some odd cross. It really was just a freak. In my memory the judges were more annoyed than fascinated - Pot certainly was - I guess because it did call some basic elements into question.

 

[spookypony]

TarrSteps, out of curiosity, do you remember where the qualifier was?

 

[TarrSteps]

But is this any worse than the horses struggling to do piaffe in the 2012 video?

But then the argument would be those horses struggling are being pushed for ambition. We're all supposed to believe now that 'Classical' trainers are only ever doing it for the glory the horses and always prioritise their best interests.

Frankly, my very spotty reading and viewing doesn't support that view. Some of the 'tricks' like making a horse canter backwards can only be explained in the context of human pride and experimentation - there is no way to argue that is in a horse's best interests.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a pro or con stance. But revisionist history always makes me raise my eyebrows. You don't have to like everything about a system to prefer it over all but if people are going to throw stones then they need to recognise if their own house is made of glass.

 

[ihatework]

But is this any worse than the horses struggling to do piaffe in the 2012 video?

Personally my opinion is yes.

 

[TarrSteps]

TarrSteps, out of curiosity, do you remember where the qualifier was?

Sunnybrook. It was a looong time ago. Contemporary with Dynasty who, if I recall, did a super test and then decamped at speed as soon as he left the arena!

 

[Mearas]

But then the argument would be those horses struggling are being pushed for ambition. We're all supposed to believe now that 'Classical' trainers are only ever doing it for the glory the horses and always prioritise their best interests.

Frankly, my very spotty reading and viewing doesn't support that view. Some of the 'tricks' like making a horse canter backwards can only be explained in the context of human pride and experimentation - there is no way to argue that is in a horse's best interests.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a pro or con stance. But revisionist history always makes me raise my eyebrows. You don't have to like everything about a system to prefer it over all but if people are going to throw stones then they need to recognise if their own house is made of glass.

I understand TarrSteps but tbh think you will find there are as many bad/good classical trainers as there are bad/good modern trainers. The tricks you refer to were actually
practiced during war time when they where less interested in 'rules' in regards to what was natural what wasn't. Riders were interested in mobility, collection, efficiency and communication and the various ways to teach and cue the horse.

It wasn't until the 19th/20th centuries when firearms and machine guns became the weapon of choice on the battlefield that this all seemed irrelevant. Instead, the cavalry took up the role of scouting and reconnaissance. This required a lot less in the way of evasive and offensive tactics (which the collected movements are) and more in the way of getting from point A to point B quickly and easily.

 

[spookypony]

Dynasty was more or less the first Canadian "star", wasn't he? Sorry, getting really off topic!

As to the vids, I found the slo-mo fascinating, and would be very interested to see the one of the grey horse slo-mo as well, to compare the footfalls. Naively, I prefer the grey horse, but with the vids as they are, it's really hard to compare!

 

[_GG_]

What was interesting about this horse was it wasn't Spanish, it was an 80s edition Canadian dressage horse so possibly a warmblood of questionable quality by current standards, but I have some memory it wasn't even that, it was some odd cross. It really was just a freak. In my memory the judges were more annoyed than fascinated - Pot certainly was - I guess because it did call some basic elements into question.

I bet the riders of the super expensive horses were a bit annoyed as well

 

[Goldenstar]

The thing is IMO no one area or use of horses has the luxury of being the most ethical the most pure and the whole 'classical' verses ' sport ' dressage thing just goes straight over my head .
Anyone who thinks one side or the other ( if indeed you can box people up and put them on one side or the other ) has the ethical high ground is sadly mistaken .

 

[_GG_]

I understand TarrSteps but tbh think you will find there are as many bad/good classical trainers as there are bad/good modern trainers. The tricks you refer to were actually
practiced during war time when they where less interested in 'rules' in regards to what was natural what wasn't. Riders were interested in mobility, collection, efficiency and communication and the various ways to teach and cue the horse.

It wasn't until the 19th/20th centuries when firearms and machine guns became the weapon of choice on the battlefield that this all seemed irrelevant. Instead, the cavalry took up the role of scouting and reconnaissance. This required a lot less in the way of evasive and offensive tactics (which the collected movements are) and more in the way of getting from point A to point B quickly and easily.

In your first paragraph, you are saying the exact same thing as TarrSteps, just in a different way.

In the wars that relate to the training of horses that you elude to, the emphasis was on the strength of the horse to be able to carry the weight of the armour laden rider and tack and their own armour and be able to last more than one battle. Horses were trained to last and in order to last they had to be strong. The movements were developed to create strength, mobility and communication yes, but not so much for the various ways to cue the horse. When in battle, being able to ride the right...and very fine cues to get what you want would be all but impossible. You wouldn't have seen battles containing hundreds of horses doing piaffe or a canter pirouette. You'd have seen hundreds of horses and riders bouncing off each other, panicked, highly charged and full of the kind of adrenaline that would make hearing any subtle training cues impossible...being pulled around, kicked on, dragged to a halt etc. The training was simply to create a horse that was physically strong enough to cope with that kind of battle.

Edit to add...

I won't speak for anyone else past or present, but the reason I train the horses I ride through the classic dressage movements within their natural capabilities is because I want my horses to be strong. A physically strong and fit horse is far less likely to be injured than a weak horse.

I don't like show offs so I am not interested in the latter videos...that's all that is to me. There is just no justification for it nowadays other than for man to say how wonderful he is for getting a horse to do that.

 

[_GG_]

The thing is IMO no one area or use of horses has the luxury of being the most ethical the most pure and the whole 'classical' verses ' sport ' dressage thing just goes straight over my head .
Anyone who thinks one side or the other ( if indeed you can box people up and put them on one side or the other ) has the ethical high ground is sadly mistaken .

Anyone who sticks firmly to any one thing thinking it is the only way is probably just heading for a big dose of reality some day.

I like dressage, I bought a horse for dressage...she preferred jumping and working in the fields to being in the school....so she's gone to an eventing home. I wasn't going to force her into something she doesn't want to be.

I am not a fan of NH, but there are elements that I think are extremely useful. I am not a fan of modern dressage, but I know classical training is far from perfect too, so I don't really stick to either. I take what I like from each.

Just when you think you have it all figured out...you'll come across a horse that forces you to rethink that. We should never stop learning

 

[TarrSteps]

I bet the riders of the super expensive horses were a bit annoyed as well

There weren't really any of those yet!

The horse didn't win - they are important movements but only two and the rest the test was poor. But I still remember watching the horse piaffe and thinking, 'Oh, hang on!'

 

[TarrSteps]

Anyone who sticks firmly to any one thing thinking it is the only way is probably just heading for a big dose of reality some day.

I like dressage, I bought a horse for dressage...she preferred jumping and working in the fields to being in the school....so she's gone to an eventing home. I wasn't going to force her into something she doesn't want to be.

I am not a fan of NH, but there are elements that I think are extremely useful. I am not a fan of modern dressage, but I know classical training is far from perfect too, so I don't really stick to either. I take what I like from each.

Just when you think you have it all figured out...you'll come across a horse that forces you to rethink that. We should never stop learning

Yes, exactly.

Just one point on 'Classical masters' , they weren't necessarily training horses to go to war, they were often employed by wealthy patrons to provide entertainment. As such, there was a lot of pressure to dazzle, to produce a greater spectacle than your peers. Art for art's sake is a nice idea but great art has almost always been entwined with commerce and power.

 

[Caol Ila]

"Not sure if anyone is interested in this video but it shows some terre a terre'- which is essentially a 4 beat canter on the spot and was highly valued exercse for it's ability to set a horse back before a jump. The rider in this video takes it further and starts going backwards which was sometimes practiced,this could be considered a galop en arriere,which is a canter backwards. Think I might prefer it on a softer surface though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDOqu1wr534"

Hey, my horse does a brilliant terre a terre. Needs to be cued by a herd of cattle charging up to a fence and me holding her so we don't end up in the next county. Then we get the backwards/in-place canter and it looks exactly like that.

 

[TarrSteps]

"Not sure if anyone is interested in this video but it shows some terre a terre'- which is essentially a 4 beat canter on the spot and was highly valued exercse for it's ability to set a horse back before a jump. The rider in this video takes it further and starts going backwards which was sometimes practiced,this could be considered a galop en arriere,which is a canter backwards. Think I might prefer it on a softer surface though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDOqu1wr534"

Hey, my horse does a brilliant terre a terre. Needs to be cued by a herd of cattle charging up to a fence and me holding her so we don't end up in the next county. Then we get the backwards/in-place canter and it looks exactly like that.

I was at a symposium given by Klaus Balkenhol once and he was asked how he starts teaching half steps/piaffe. He said something along the lines of 'We take the young horses out for a ride around feeding time then restrain them on the way home. When they offer we apply the aids then pat them on the neck and go home.'

A bit of humour (he also said, when asked if he ever used draw reins on very strong/excitable horses, that he didn't need to because he had an endless supply of 20 year old farm boy apprentices to ride those horses ) but also a bit of insight into outside the box/use what you're offered thinking!

 

[Goldenstar]

That's what I need an endless supply do twenty yo farm boys .

 

[_GG_]

Yes, exactly.

Just one point on 'Classical masters' , they weren't necessarily training horses to go to war, they were often employed by wealthy patrons to provide entertainment. As such, there was a lot of pressure to dazzle, to produce a greater spectacle than your peers. Art for art's sake is a nice idea but great art has almost always been entwined with commerce and power.

As with a post I made, I think in the other thread??? I have never been convinced that horses were trained in the classical movements for the battlefield...for war itself. I find it laughable to envision hundreds of horses doing high school movements in the middle of a battlefield. All that comes to mind is the Monty Python boys with coconuts making hoof sounds and rather politely pirouetting their way through a battle where they are all apologising to each other. No, wars in those times were vicious, ruthless and fraught and there would have been no thought given at all to getting your legs in the right place to ask the your horse to kindly move in the desired fashion to avoid or enable attack. No...the horses were trained in a manner that made them strong enough to last a whole battle, not just one fight. It was the physical strength of the horse to enable it to carry the rider, tack and all the added weight of armour. They simply couldn't afford to keep replacing horses, so they developed a way to make them cope better and last longer.

 

[_GG_]

I was at a symposium given by Klaus Balkenhol once and he was asked how he starts teaching half steps/piaffe. He said something along the lines of 'We take the young horses out for a ride around feeding time then restrain them on the way home. When they offer we apply the aids then pat them on the neck and go home.'

A bit of humour (he also said, when asked if he ever used draw reins on very strong/excitable horses, that he didn't need to because he had an endless supply of 20 year old farm boy apprentices to ride those horses ) but also a bit of insight into outside the box/use what you're offered thinking!

I teach leg yield by moving a horse to the middle of the road and as they start to drift back to the track, I apply the aids and when they give a lateral step, not just a step back to the side, I pat and take off the aids. When I taught my puppies to sit and lie down...I would wait until they did it naturally and just say the word and give them a pet

Why make things complicated when there are such simple ways?

 

[TarrSteps]

As with a post I made, I think in the other thread??? I have never been convinced that horses were trained in the classical movements for the battlefield...for war itself. I find it laughable to envision hundreds of horses doing high school movements in the middle of a battlefield. All that comes to mind is the Monty Python boys with coconuts making hoof sounds and rather politely pirouetting their way through a battle where they are all apologising to each other. No, wars in those times were vicious, ruthless and fraught and there would have been no thought given at all to getting your legs in the right place to ask the your horse to kindly move in the desired fashion to avoid or enable attack. No...the horses were trained in a manner that made them strong enough to last a whole battle, not just one fight. It was the physical strength of the horse to enable it to carry the rider, tack and all the added weight of armour. They simply couldn't afford to keep replacing horses, so they developed a way to make them cope better and last longer.

Sorry, my comment wasn't to you but to the other comment about things like cantering backwards being martial in origin. I'm also not convinced!

 

[_GG_]

Sorry, my comment wasn't to you but to the other comment about things like cantering backwards being martial in origin. I'm also not convinced!

I know...I am in agreement with you. I shall have dreams tonight of piaffing war horses

 

[TarrSteps]

I know...I am in agreement with you. I shall have dreams tonight of piaffing war horses

I would also think teaching war horses to canter backwards would give them ideas!