The ethics of genetics (within horse breeding)

[CanteringCarrot]

Edit: never mind... I'm going to offend someone and don't want to deal with it.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

i see this all the time, really hacks me off. So many people advertising broken mares to be used as broodmares. Also, the mares that are never ridden but bred from. That to me is just bizarre. Surely you want to know the rideability of a mare if you intend to have her within your breeding programme ?

I normally think the same, but then I think about all of the Spanish mares that aren't ridden, both historically and in presently. The Spanish have produced many a fine horse, to include ridden horses, and mares typically weren't for riding.

 

[Abacus]

I thoroughly approve of the theory (practised by some studbooks) that a lame mare or stallion can never be bred from (to be included in the studbook at any rate). Even if caused by a field accident, it is possible that the lameness is in some way contributed to by genetic issues and therefore that animal should not be used for breeding. I don't know how it's policed - does anyone?

On a slightly different subject I am terrified by the proliferation of cloning and surrogacy, often of young animals that may have had a good competitive start to their careers but their long term health isn't established. This will lead to even quicker proliferation of lameness or other poor health in the next generation, as those animals can be 'bred from' so many more times in a season than if they were limited by natural factors (mostly, that mares can only breed once per year, if the carry the foals individually). As far as I am aware this is mainly in polo, and to a slightly lesser extent in eventing. And, apart from exponentially increasing potential health issues, what are we doing for each sport by doing so? - the article below says "Cloning is a sideways move," ... "It doesn't improve the breed." Isn't this just creating as near-as-possible identical machines, that the rider can ride in the same way, and that reduces the skill level needed to succeed?

https://www.science.org/content/article/six-cloned-horses-help-rider-win-prestigious-polo-match

 

[Xmasha]

I normally think the same, but then I think about all of the Spanish mares that aren't ridden, both historically and in presently. The Spanish have produced many a fine horse, to include ridden horses, and mares typically weren't for riding.

Some of course will be fine , but there must be stacks of non ridden mares that have dodgy rideability / soundness issues that just aren’t picked up . I can’t see why people don’t back them , see what they’ve got and then put them into the broodmare herd . mine have had a career/ been under saddle and then been bred from . It really helps me when choosing a stallion .
In fact my 2 that are due this year will both go back under saddle next year as I’m not putting any in foal this year

 

[Marigold4]

Personally I would never breed anything with a suspect hereditary/genetic or conformational issue on either side. The hyperflexion really bothers me as has become so pronounced in recent years.

An interesting topic for sure… It seems hard to find a nice straightforward type these days (going by issues friends have had and the large number of lameness posts you see about young/5 stage vetted purchases needing retirement) and I've often thought the sport type horses average RC level competitors rode back in my childhood were much sturdier, albeit less fantastic movers. Where did it all go wrong?

I have aimed to breed a sport type RC level/family horse. There is a real shortage of this type of horse, I think. She is 9 months old now, has lots of bone - a sturdy type. Fairly nondescript colouring - bright bay. I tested her mother (TB x Oldenburg) for every genetic fault that might be relevant. Sire is a grade one connemara who already had young on the ground that I could see. So far, so good and it will be interesting to see how she turns out. I spent two years playing with ideas for a stallion - with AI you can pick spectacular stallions from across Europe but in the end sense prevailed and I chose something less spectacular but hopefully useful.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Some of course will be fine , but there must be stacks of non ridden mares that have dodgy rideability / soundness issues that just aren’t picked up . I can’t see why people don’t back them , see what they’ve got and then put them into the broodmare herd . mine have had a career/ been under saddle and then been bred from . It really helps me when choosing a stallion .
In fact my 2 that are due this year will both go back under saddle next year as I’m not putting any in foal this year

I totally agree with and support the mare having a career or at least being ridden.

It's entirely possibly that some things within the Spanish horse could've been prevented or improved upon if mares were ridden (more are nowadays). I find them to be an extremely rideable horse in general though, but that's with the right type of person.

I will say, even though many of the mares were never ridden horses, the Spanish have created one heck of a horse and I've never had any other horse(s) like them. Could some health/soundness issues within the breed be better? Yes. I'd argue that for many breeds though, even those with a higher percentage of ridden mares.

I know a lot of it is my bias here, but I give the Spanish a little bit of slack with the ridden mare thing. Maybe more than I should, I don't know.

As to why mares weren't backed, it goes back to some level of tradition I believe (paging @Cortez because she probably knows more!). It also ties into why so many male horses are/were left intact, even if they were not used for breeding. Basically the horses were often gifts or used in parades or other events, and a stallion would be the most suitable mount for a king if you were to gift a king or noble a horse. They can have more presence too.

I'm summing it up and probably doing a shite job at it

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Since I've been talking about Spanish horses, I also find the Global Genetic Index stuff in my ANCCE app to be interesting. Do other registries display info like this?

 

[Xmasha]

I think KWPN do . But I know Irish draught society don’t . Thy do grade mares / stallions and use linear profile but it’s not published . Which I think is a shame

ETA .. the Irish society do publish the Irish graded stallions linear profile. Some UK stallion owners publish there own too

 

[Cortez]

WW1 and WW2 solved a lot of the genetic issues in British horses. Anything with terrible feet, eyes or lame was shot for meat. Pretty much every horse was inspected by the army/Ministry of Agriculture during this time so it wiped out a huge amount of genetic issues in one go. The Germans did not do this so hence they have a fair few genetic issues, like the leptospirosis issue which seems to mainly affect German bred horses.

That's a rather inaccurate and strange interpretation of history. For a start many "British" horses used in both WW's were in fact Irish and therefore out of the scope of any influence other than purchase. American and Australian horses were also used by the military. The German army used far, far more horses, particularly at the beginning of WWII, and inspected them rigorously. German stud book Keurung inspections were initiated well before any UK organisation, and before either WW, and were infinitely more rigorous in scope.

I'm not aware of the lepto issue, can you elaborate?

 

[Cortez]

I totally agree with and support the mare having a career or at least being ridden.

It's entirely possibly that some things within the Spanish horse could've been prevented or improved upon if mares were ridden (more are nowadays). I find them to be an extremely rideable horse in general though, but that's with the right type of person.

I will say, even though many of the mares were never ridden horses, the Spanish have created one heck of a horse and I've never had any other horse(s) like them. Could some health/soundness issues within the breed be better? Yes. I'd argue that for many breeds though, even those with a higher percentage of ridden mares.

I know a lot of it is my bias here, but I give the Spanish a little bit of slack with the ridden mare thing. Maybe more than I should, I don't know.

As to why mares weren't backed, it goes back to some level of tradition I believe (paging @Cortez because she probably knows more!). It also ties into why so many male horses are/were left intact, even if they were not used for breeding. Basically the horses were often gifts or used in parades or other events, and a stallion would be the most suitable mount for a king if you were to gift a king or noble a horse. They can have more presence too.

I'm summing it up and probably doing a shite job at it

Actually up until quite recently mares were used extensively for other jobs around the farm, such as threshing (which is where the cobra tradition comes from, where mares are hitched together with a neck collar in a side-by-side line and worked in a circle), driving, and for ladies and children to ride. It's really only on the largest studs where they are not ridden, and I can assure you any mare with a bad temperament would be out lickety split. All the Yeguada Miltar mares are broken to ride and there are nearly as many mares as geldings (and fewer stallions) in Doma Vaquera. On my last buying trip to Spain I looked at I'd say a 60/40 split stallions/mares, and bought a ridden mare. Stallions are not gelded because they don't cause problems, simple: Spanish horses (in Spain) are properly handled, more robustly expected to behave, and have IMO lovely temperaments. Riding horses are also mostly kept stabled and not turned out in groups after being broken.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Actually up until quite recently mares were used extensively for other jobs around the farm, such as threshing (which is where the cobra tradition comes from, where mares are hitched together with a neck collar in a side-by-side line and worked in a circle), driving, and for ladies and children to ride. It's really only on the largest studs where they are not ridden, and I can assure you any mare with a bad temperament would be out lickety split. All the Yeguada Miltar mares are broken to ride and there are nearly as many mares as geldings (and fewer stallions) in Doma Vaquera. On my last buying trip to Spain I looked at I'd say a 60/40 split stallions/mares, and bought a ridden mare. Stallions are not gelded because they don't cause problems, simple: Spanish horses (in Spain) are properly handled, more robustly expected to behave, and have IMO lovely temperaments. Riding horses are also mostly kept stabled and not turned out in groups after being broken.

Thank you for your input!

 

[j1ffy]

Actually up until quite recently mares were used extensively for other jobs around the farm, such as threshing (which is where the cobra tradition comes from, where mares are hitched together with a neck collar in a side-by-side line and worked in a circle), driving, and for ladies and children to ride. It's really only on the largest studs where they are not ridden, and I can assure you any mare with a bad temperament would be out lickety split. All the Yeguada Miltar mares are broken to ride and there are nearly as many mares as geldings (and fewer stallions) in Doma Vaquera. On my last buying trip to Spain I looked at I'd say a 60/40 split stallions/mares, and bought a ridden mare. Stallions are not gelded because they don't cause problems, simple: Spanish horses (in Spain) are properly handled, more robustly expected to behave, and have IMO lovely temperaments. Riding horses are also mostly kept stabled and not turned out in groups after being broken.

Ah I always wondered where the cobra came from! Thank you for the input.

Back to the original topic, I don't think there'll be any real change while such massive prices are paid for big moving horses. The WFFS study is an interesting read particularly for the SJ lines, I assume proprioception is worse in a horse with hypermobility hence the poorer assessment of take-off distance? (I admit I skim-read the study so may have completely misinterpreted).

As an amateur I'd be far happier if I knew my horse came from a breeder who did their level best to avoid known genetic issues rather than accepting a potential risk. The concept of 'quality' is an interesting one as breeders seem to be saying that quality outweighs the risk of WFFS - however quality in this case is subjective as they are really talking about horses with supposedly 'wow' paces that will score higher marks plus (ideally) a pretty head. Quality to a layman might mean correct movement, good conformation and soundness...a pretty head is always welcome though

 

[LEC]

That's a rather inaccurate and strange interpretation of history. For a start many "British" horses used in both WW's were in fact Irish and therefore out of the scope of any influence other than purchase. American and Australian horses were also used by the military. The German army used far, far more horses, particularly at the beginning of WWII, and inspected them rigorously. German stud book Keurung inspections were initiated well before any UK organisation, and before either WW, and were infinitely more rigorous in scope.

I'm not aware of the lepto issue, can you elaborate?

Of course other horses were used by military depending on nationality, but pretty much every horse was inspected for use particularly ww1 in UK. Regular riding horses were compulsory purchased for the army if adequate. At outbreak of war the British Army had 25k horses so needed an awful lot more. They were all inspected as like humans were inspected for flat feet etc, no point taking broken horses. Nothing under 15hh was taken.

War Horses: Britain’s Equine Army of the First World War - Nerdalicious

The First World War is viewed as the first truly mechanised war and the horrific effects of gas, artillery and machine gun against the frailties of human flesh have been well documented over the last century. However, it was also the war of the horse: from mounting cavalry charges and pulling...

nerdalicious.com.au

This is what eliminated a lot of genetic issues and particularly eye problems which are seen in continental horses. Its a fact and one I have discussed recently with a world leading equine eye specialist on why something is found in German horses and not UK.

 

[Cortez]

This is what eliminated a lot of genetic issues and particularly eye problems which are seen in continental horses. Its a fact and one I have discussed recently with a world leading equine eye specialist on why something is found in German horses and not UK.

If something is found in one distinct population of horses and not in another it's precisely because they are separate, nothing to do with world wars. And it's not like EVERY horse in Germany has eye problems, and no horse in the UK has eye problems. Just as Connemaras have a prevalent hoof condition, Appaloosas often suffer from night blindness, and so on. That's how genetics works.

What's the lepto problem you were referencing?

 

[tristars]

Of course other horses were used by military depending on nationality, but pretty much every horse was inspected for use particularly ww1 in UK. Regular riding horses were compulsory purchased for the army if adequate. At outbreak of war the British Army had 25k horses so needed an awful lot more. They were all inspected as like humans were inspected for flat feet etc, no point taking broken horses. Nothing under 15hh was taken.

War Horses: Britain’s Equine Army of the First World War - Nerdalicious

The First World War is viewed as the first truly mechanised war and the horrific effects of gas, artillery and machine gun against the frailties of human flesh have been well documented over the last century. However, it was also the war of the horse: from mounting cavalry charges and pulling...

nerdalicious.com.au

This is what eliminated a lot of genetic issues and particularly eye problems which are seen in continental horses. Its a fact and one I have discussed recently with a world leading equine eye specialist on why something is found in German horses and not UK.

i read somewhere that as many as 10 per cent of of european mainland horses have eye problems, however that would not be just from one cause, some environmental some genetic



my grandfather was a buyer for the army, remounts, he sometimes rode 300 miles across the desert in the near east, WW1, so any horse would need to be pretty decent

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Is there a specific eye condition or conditions that we're talking about here?

Having lived in Germany, I cannot recall any prolific eye conditions. I still have friends in various (German) breeding circles.

This could be something I just didn't notice, but I haven't heard of this before, so I'm just curious.

 

[Cortez]

Is there a specific eye condition or conditions that we're talking about here?

Having lived in Germany, I cannot recall any prolific eye conditions. I still have friends in various (German) breeding circles.

This could be something I just didn't notice, but I haven't heard of this before, so I'm just curious.

Me neither, and I used to be very involved in breeding German WB's and the körung process.

 

[shortstuff99]

Lepto is the scientific name for weils disease from rats so not sure how it links in as horses can get it in the UK.

 

[Cortez]

Lepto is the scientific name for weils disease from rats so not sure how it links in as horses can get it in the UK.

Well, precisely: that's the reason for my question. Interested in the answer.

 

[ihatework]

I’ve not heard anything either or been able to find anything specific to euro warmbloods on a (very quick) literature search.

There is a known genetic link for REU for sure. REU across a variety of breeds, but the strongest link is in Appaloosa (that’s pretty commonly known).

Seems to be an established link between lepto infection and REU risk which is fascinating. But I’m not sure that should necessarily be considered breed or country specific? There are obviously genetic elements to consider in REU but I’m yet to be convinced of anything other than Appaloosa.

 

[Goldenstar]

When I was young people who competed mainly rode Irish horses who where ID / TB in various percentages or similar types bred in England.
Farmers in England often had a hunter mare on the farm who went off to local TB stallion . That mare was more often than not a retired favourite who had carried people in the family hunting for many years while she might well have retired with an unsoundness she would have done so after many years graft.
Star competition horses where Tb’s near TB’s and the random superstars that came from the crosses it was all a bit adhoc.
The superstar show jumpers where mostly Irish horses and the eventers where near TB’s .
Then on the continent they set about breeding for characteristics that produced better horses for competition and boy did things change and really really fast .
Frankly I think it’s all gone too far and I not sure what the way out is .

 

[LEC]

Is there a specific eye condition or conditions that we're talking about here?

Having lived in Germany, I cannot recall any prolific eye conditions. I still have friends in various (German) breeding circles.

This could be something I just didn't notice, but I haven't heard of this before, so I'm just curious.

Leptospirosis - 15-20% of German warmbloods will have it with problems.

Very very rare in UK - all horses will have a level of lepto in their system but it seems German warmbloods are prone to real issues and my vet who travels around Europe doing purely eyes recounted the reason being ww1 being the reason it was pretty much eradicated in Uk population.

Though looking at this paper the stats for German horses are lower at 7-10% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8875353/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5655720/

My regular vet who is British team vet and USA team vet hadn’t ever encountered it before.

 

[Cortez]

Leptospirosis - 15-20% of German warmbloods will have it with problems.

Very very rare in UK - all horses will have a level of lepto in their system but it seems German warmbloods are prone to real issues and my vet who travels around Europe doing purely eyes recounted the reason being ww1 being the reason it was pretty much eradicated in Uk population

What was eliminated? What you are saying doesn't make much sense, and where are the statistics that you're referencing? I've spent a large part of my life involved with German WBs, and I've never heard of a case of lepto amongst them (I realise that's not a scientific sample). In fact the only cases of leptospirosis in horses I've ever seen have been in the UK (also not scientifically significant).

 

[LEC]

What was eliminated? What you are saying doesn't make much sense, and where are the statistics that you're referencing? I've spent a large part of my life involved with German WBs, and I've never heard of a case of lepto amongst them (I realise that's not a scientific sample). In fact the only cases of leptospirosis in horses I've ever seen have been in the UK (also not scientifically significant).

I have added published work. The prevalence of Lepto in UK vs Germany causing issues with ERU.

Obviously having had a UK case we wanted to understand why and this is what I was told by the European specialist in eyes and the reasons why the prevalence is low in UK.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Leptospirosis - 15-20% of German warmbloods will have it with problems.

Very very rare in UK - all horses will have a level of lepto in their system but it seems German warmbloods are prone to real issues and my vet who travels around Europe doing purely eyes recounted the reason being ww1 being the reason it was pretty much eradicated in Uk population.

My regular vet who is British team vet and USA team vet hadn’t ever encountered it before.

So uveitis caused by Leptospirosis, essentially.

I am surprised that a USA vet has not encountered it before, but I am not sure that a team vet would have as many encounters as some others, for a few reasons, but it would also depend on their background.

I never heard of Lepto and Lepto in respect to horses and dogs until I moved to the US. No one in Germany ever mentioned it. So that's quite interesting.

 

[shortstuff99]

It is interesting reading, especially regarding UK horse population susceptibility as lepto is prevalent in the UK and causes real issues in the water industry here for (human) workers.

 

[BronsonNutter]

Very interesting re the WFFS article! Hopefully we don't get too many people trying to breed carriers of it else that will be a minefield in a few years time. One horse owner-breeders will do their best to avoid breeding a carrier to another carrier, but I would have my doubts as to whether the larger studs will be so sensible, and instead run the risk of 25% dead foal vs 50% more elastic mover....

 

[DSB]

If it works,it's Line Breeding
If it doesn't,it's Inbreeding.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I have known two cases of lepto both at the RS where I worked. One in a dog which amazingly survived, and the other a horse in 1969. He was a very tough Highland type and became very ill, very suddenly. He also survived but was ill for quite a while. We were on the side of the canal and had a lot of rats.

 

[maya2008]

Lots of things have a genetic input - but in different situations can be advantageous. It’s about balance.

Would I breed from something with sweet itch or autoimmune disease or hypermobility or kissing spines? No, but I can see why people do, if the horse they have isn’t badly affected and has been a very successful competition horse for many years. My pssm pony was the best jumping pony I have ever owned, totally point and shoot, fast and loved her job. Her active lifestyle kept the pssm at bay until she injured herself in the field and had to have time off. Many hypermobile horses are successful dressage horses, with the conditioning to keep them sound.

Navicular though - my TB had ‘navicular’ despite being barefoot all her life. The cause was narrowed down to arthritis in her hoof in the end due to a prior laminitis episode 10 years before. Her brief period of persistent laminitis was also seemingly triggered by alfalfa, and after some time she went back out on grass, no muzzle, eating normal feed again, even after retirement with no issues. Not everything is black and white!