The ethics of genetics (within horse breeding)

khalswitz

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The thing not captured in this chat though is the effect that excluding horses who are carriers of recessive disease alleles from breeding has at a population level especially in small effective population size populations.

Its fine to say stop breeding Warmbloods with FFS (it’s been found in TBs as well so there’s a push to stop referring to it purely as a Warmblood disease), because there’s so many thousands of them and they are a large admixed population anyway. But the Connemara and New Forest pony examples, and even smaller breeds like Eriskay, Dales or Cleveland Bay that are all closed populations - excluding carriers of recessive disease alleles means significantly reducing population genetic diversity, which in turn just gives rise to even more recesssive diseases due to inbreeding over time.

There was a lovely study done in Australian TBs that demonstrated an effect of genetic purging in historically inbred TBs - ie, high inbreeding coefficients from further back in the pedigree actually didn’t negatively affect performance, because accumulating recessive disease alleles that affected performance were selected against over time. So it was recent inbreeding that actually had the most negative impact (inbreeding depression) on performance traits.

Personally, I’d be less concerned about a theoretical link between heterozygosity for the FFS allele and hypermobility in WBs than I would be about a disease like PSSM1 where age of onset is older and the type of horse being affected is more likely to be a leisure horse than a performance horse (and thus potentially bred from and selected for despite disease).

Regarding EMS - it’s my pet hypothesis that there’s a genetic component, and I’ve been trying very hard to get a project funded to continue research into it, but not had any takers yet!
 

shortstuff99

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Yes you make good points but, breeds are not separate species so you could always outbreed a population while still keeping to a reasonable phenotypic expression. Also need to be careful to not allow a deleterious gene to proliferate through a small population and then make it impossible to remove in an effort to sustain a breed.
 

khalswitz

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Yes you make good points but, breeds are not separate species so you could always outbreed a population while still keeping to a reasonable phenotypic expression. Also need to be careful to not allow a deleterious gene to proliferate through a small population and then make it impossible to remove in an effort to sustain a breed.
They aren’t, you’re right. But when dealing with small population and rare breeds, the decision to open those populations can be effectively the same as a decision to end the breed, or alter it beyond recognition.

It’s not an easy population management decision to decide whether or when to limit the breed’s genetic diversity and instead outbreed. And we will lose some breeds completely taking that approach.

is it more extreme to halt breeding of carriers of recessive disease alleles where those recessive diseases are eg loss of function mutations that cause no disease in carriers, and commit to requiring outbreeding to maintain genetic diversity, or to attempt to manage mating to avoid homozygous recessive offspring, but maintain as much of the breed’s genetic material as possible before resorting to admixing?

I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer there to be honest.
 

shortstuff99

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They aren’t, you’re right. But when dealing with small population and rare breeds, the decision to open those populations can be effectively the same as a decision to end the breed, or alter it beyond recognition.

It’s not an easy population management decision to decide whether or when to limit the breed’s genetic diversity and instead outbreed. And we will lose some breeds completely taking that approach.

is it more extreme to halt breeding of carriers of recessive disease alleles where those recessive diseases are eg loss of function mutations that cause no disease in carriers, and commit to requiring outbreeding to maintain genetic diversity, or to attempt to manage mating to avoid homozygous recessive offspring, but maintain as much of the breed’s genetic material as possible before resorting to admixing?

I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer there to be honest.
An interesting case study on this is the current discussions to outcross the Lipizzaners with PREs as there is now a too small and too in bred population which is causing real issues.
 

khalswitz

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An interesting case study on this is the current discussions to outcross the Lipizzaners with PREs as there is now a too small and too in bred population which is causing real issues.
Yeah absolutely. How closely related genetically are other breeds that you can ‘open’ the studbook too? That’ll vary a lot. At a population level it’s definitely some interesting decision making.
 

tda

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I haven't replied to this thread previously as trying to discuss these things makes my head hurt!
I have dales ponies, a small at risk population, with current genetic issues.
The Fell Foal Syndrome, made the jump across to dales ponies some years ago, Now called FIS, so we currently test for that. Carrier stallions are no longer allowed to be licenced, however existing stallions were not required to be tested, so mare owners have to ensure their mare is clear of FIS.
The dales pony society then have also adopted the Sparks program pioneered by the Cleveland Bay society, so every pony has a breeding coefficient so you can see how closely related to all other ponies it is, also what stallions are the best genetic match, ie not too closely related. This has not gone down too well with some breeders who are proud of their line breeding programmes
It's all quite scary, and so much still not known about physical issues that might be a result of previous generations in inbreeding
 

suestowford

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Sometimes a breed whose numbers are too low for safety, will consider starting up an inspection scheme, for unregistered ponies who conform to the breed standard. The Fell Pony Society did this for a while, when numbers were very low, although it's no longer in operation. But it's an option open to breed societies.

I don't even know why I am on a thread about genetics, as the technical side of it goes straight over my head. But this suggestion that hypermobility is being deliberately bred in, does worry me a lot. What are we (as a species) doing here ? Are we back in the days of the Freak Show?
 
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