The french bulldog best of breed controversy

[Aru]

I haven't done as much following of crufts as usual but this dog is getting massive conversation going in the vet circles.

Pictures attached of the dogs head -side profile and nostrils.
Also attached the revised breed standard for a French bulldog head.
The standard was revised to encourage breeders to breed away from the extreme type in 2021.
The kennel club already has the breed on their breed watch category.

French Bulldog - Category 3 | Breed Watch | Kennel Club

Breed specific, visible health concerns for the French Bulldog; to help discourage breeding dogs with exaggerated conformational issues.

www.thekennelclub.org.uk

I'm glad he mouth breathes well, because this dog did pass the test for entry and got a buas score of 0.

The test it for the uk show dogs to compete appears to be much less stringent then the assessment we preform before allowing these dogs to fly.

How is this the best of the breed to showcase to the world?

 

[Patterdale]

It’s shocking. But nothing ever changes.
The trouble is that the judges reward it. So the breeders keep breeding it.

But no, I don’t know how they can get away with going so blatantly against the breed standard, or how the nasal stenosis didn’t score.

 

[cauda equina]

Who judges the judges?
If the KC sets breed standards which are then disregarded by judges they (those judges) shouldn't be invited back

 

[blackcob]

But no, I don’t know how they can get away with going so blatantly against the breed standard, or how the nasal stenosis didn’t score.

Mentioned on the other thread but the RFG test this dog undertook doesn’t include nostril grading. The judge should penalise it - but it’d be a brave judge, as this dog was also BoB at Crufts 2023 and has done a lot of winning inc. multiple best in show wins since then.

If anything this dog appears to have less muzzle in profile and worse nostrils than its sire, and the breeder is still being rewarded for it.

 

[scats]

I groom a frenchie who I believe is absolutely spot on. She has no breathing issues, but plenty of muzzle profile without losing the look of the breed. I also groom one who I can’t believe is still alive. His ribs stick out from permanent heaving to breathe and he vomits constantly from the effort of essentially staying alive.

It horrifies me that judges at the top level are rewarding dogs with skulls like this. It might be fluke that that dog can breathe ok, because believe me, a lot of them who look like that can’t.

 

[pistolpete]

It’s all very predictable and sad for the dogs. Dreading GSD contingent already! I don’t enjoy watching fly ball either as so competitive now dogs look like they are being hammered. Don’t enjoy watching much equine sport either these days. Worlds gone mad.

 

[tda]

I happened to watch the toy dog section judging the other day and I was amazed at this (and some othe) dogs, as others have said how can this still be going on
There was one that trotted round with its mouth open, can't remember if it was this dog

 

[MurphysMinder]

I was amazed when this won the group after seeing the pictures of its head, and after the hopeful sounding talk on the programme about health testing. It's almost as if the KC and judge were being deliberately pig headed, I wouldn't be too surprised if this dog went BIS to prove a point, though I'm not sure what the point is. The owners were very keen to stress he walks 7 miles a day, which I am cynical about.
I was also waiting for the GSD comments to start so well done pistolpete for being the first. I know the judge, she has bred some lovely shepherds , I hope she will put up a decent dog but I'm afraid there are still a lot of unsound dogs winning so I am prepared to wince when the group is shown.

 

[Clodagh]

It’s all very predictable and sad for the dogs. Dreading GSD contingent already! I don’t enjoy watching fly ball either as so competitive now dogs look like they are being hammered. Don’t enjoy watching much equine sport either these days. Worlds gone mad.

I think flyball looks awful. Everyone screaming and the dogs banging off those turn board things.

 

[ycbm]

I haven't done as much following of crufts as usual but this dog is getting massive conversation going in the vet circles.

Pictures attached of the dogs head -side profile and nostrils.
Also attached the revised breed standard for a French bulldog head.
The standard was revised to encourage breeders to breed away from the extreme type in 2021.
The kennel club already has the breed on their breed watch category.

French Bulldog - Category 3 | Breed Watch | Kennel Club

Breed specific, visible health concerns for the French Bulldog; to help discourage breeding dogs with exaggerated conformational issues.

www.thekennelclub.org.uk

I'm glad he mouth breathes well, because this dog did pass the test for entry and got a buas score of 0.

The test it for the uk show dogs to compete appears to be much less stringent then the assessment we preform before allowing these dogs to fly.

How is this the best of the breed to showcase to the world?

That dog should have been sent home by a vet, not even allowed in front of the judges.

In no way did it meet the guidelines. This is shameful.
.

 

[Jenko109]

I think flyball looks awful. Everyone screaming and the dogs banging off those turn board things.

I'm not a fly ball fan.

I just don't really get it. It seems the handler just let's the dog go and calls it back again and from a handler perspective there is very little skill involved. Not like agility where you really have to be in tune with each other.

A mad gallop, to then smash into them boards and gallop back again. What's the point? Undue stress on joints for a seemingly pointless sport to me...

 

[meleeka]

The RSPCA have commented

 

[Clodagh]

I'm not a fly ball fan.

I just don't really get it. It seems the handler just let's the dog go and calls it back again and from a handler perspective there is very little skill involved. Not like agility where you really have to be in tune with each other.

A mad gallop, to then smash into them boards and gallop back again. What's the point? Undue stress on joints for a seemingly pointless sport to me...

I think there’s a lot of training involved (not as much as agility, no). But it’s all at such a fever pitch.

 

[Morwenna]

Who judges the judges?
If the KC sets breed standards which are then disregarded by judges they (those judges) shouldn't be invited back

I think this is the really key point. I think the breed standards of many breeds need some revision to a more moderate form and the judges need to actually judge against them and not what they think the breed should look like. They should have to justify their decision if they don’t. I also think the stated purpose of the breed should have greater importance and the judges should consider if the dog would be capable of that. I’m not saying all gundogs need to be working dogs but they should all be capable of it and far too many of them in the group ring last night were clearly not.

 

[Morwenna]

I think there’s a lot of training involved (not as much as agility, no). But it’s all at such a fever pitch.

The sad thing is there is no need for it all to be at fever pitch. It doesn’t do the dogs any good and I know a few people who started flyball and left because their dogs couldn’t cope with the noise and the chaos. I don’t even think it makes good viewing either.

 

[Christmascinnamoncookie]

The KC has long been unfit for purpose. Other than the big drop in purchases and repeatedly hearing vets and the RSPCA saying how awful it is, how can we discourage people from wanting these dogs and overproducing them if the governing body do eff all?

 

[pistolpete]

The sad thing is there is no need for it all to be at fever pitch. It doesn’t do the dogs any good and I know a few people who started flyball and left because their dogs couldn’t cope with the noise and the chaos. I don’t even think it makes good viewing either.

Me neither it’s mental!!

 

[MurphysMinder]

I think there’s a lot of training involved (not as much as agility, no). But it’s all at such a fever pitch.

A lot of it is about timing , getting start and changeovers absolutely spot on . Our older heeler did flyball with my daughter but I swapped to agility when he came to live with me as flyball was just too noisy for me . He loved it though . The physio who sees my 2 for maintenance sees a lot of flyball dogs for maintenance and conditioning , I think they are very well looked after . Interestingly my older dog has started showing a very occasional “ouch” on his left leg . I checked pics of his box turn at physios request and sure enough he turned to the left , which she believes could possibly be a factor .

 

[Clodagh]

A lot of it is about timing , getting start and changeovers absolutely spot on . Our older heeler did flyball with my daughter but I swapped to agility when he came to live with me as flyball was just too noisy for me . He loved it though . The physio who sees my 2 for maintenance sees a lot of flyball dogs for maintenance and conditioning , I think they are very well looked after . Interestingly my older dog has started showing a very occasional “ouch” on his left leg . I checked pics of his box turn at physios request and sure enough he turned to the left , which she believes could possibly be a factor .

Tawnys sister did it and she is on NSAIDS and has been since she retired from it at 7 years old. T who did gundog work, full on, for 8 years is completely sound. (Neck being a separate issue to wear and tear.). I accept two dogs do not a sample make.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Tawnys sister did it and she is on NSAIDS and has been since she retired from it at 7 years old. T who did gundog work, full on, for 8 years is completely sound. (Neck being a separate issue to wear and tear.). I accept two dogs do not a sample make.

In all fairness, Pickle only did flyball for a couple of years, and then agility for 8 but there isn't the repetition on the same leg in agility.

 

[Cortez]

I'm not a fly ball fan.

I just don't really get it. It seems the handler just let's the dog go and calls it back again and from a handler perspective there is very little skill involved. Not like agility where you really have to be in tune with each other.

A mad gallop, to then smash into them boards and gallop back again. What's the point? Undue stress on joints for a seemingly pointless sport to me...

Well, what’s the point of showjumping? Or anything that us humans ask animals to do for our amusement for that matter? And just like many sports, I’m sure there is a lot that goes into training that we, as non-aficionados, are not aware of. I don’t particularly “get” fly ball either, BTW, but I know that any of my lot would LOVE to go mad chasing a ball at full tilt, over and over again.

 

[Teaselmeg]

The French Bulldog is horrendous, no nostrils, flat face, no tail and a very dodgy right hind leg. I cannot believe it won the group

Flyball is just horrendous, watching dogs being roughly manhandled and screamed at , it's become more like a blood sport for some. Where is the connection with the dog like you have in agility, working as a team together ? I'm guessing someone at Channel 4 likes it, because its dominated the afternoon coverage

 

[Errin Paddywack]

The French Bulldog is horrendous, no nostrils, flat face, no tail and a very dodgy right hind leg. I cannot believe it won the group

I totally agree. Where is the incentive to breed healthier dogs when this is what wins. Very sad.

 

[P3LH]

I’m not going this year, it’ll be one of a handful of times (so few I can’t even recall them in number) in my whole life. I’ve deliberated as today is ‘my’ day so it’s not even like I’d have to juggle work time.

I hated it last year. Hated seeing what was representing in the rings for both of my breeds, Pembroke corgis and rough collies. I don’t know what many breeders and exhibitors were thinking.

Hated many examples of other breeds too. The Tv coverage so far this year has just cemented in my mind that we are truly no further forward than when pedigree dogs exposed turn the show world upside down. The toy group made me squirm - although the Pom and the Pap were nice and moderate examples. Nothing to say about the utility group that’s kind. And aspects of gundogs were a complete joke.

Miss discover dogs. That’s about it for me. I’ve been surprised how quite a few of my ‘dog people’ friends feel similar this year.

The KC doesn’t help itself - at all. The French bulldog was a travesty, but it’s ok because the doyennes of the breed are more bothered by non standard colours than they are as to whether the breed can breathe. It isnt alone - there were others too which felt like we’d stepped back, many of the toy group, and the eyes on that clumber - Tbf the Sussex spaniel seems to be more and more exaggerated than I remember in previous years.

I’m sure I’ll cringe tonight with whatever gets BOB for mine. Probably another draught excluder dragging its genitals along the floor as it hobbles around the ring, and a back combed giant Pomeranian who’ll be scared of running on the green carpet if it catches sight of a shine or reflection.


Glad I’m not alone in hating flyball too. Thought it was just me being a misery.

 

[P3LH]

Who judges the judges?
If the KC sets breed standards which are then disregarded by judges they (those judges) shouldn't be invited back

In many breeds it’s an old boys club mentality. Some people could walk up with a ferret or a French lop on a fancy show slip lead and get placed. Standards are linked so closely to breed clubs, many of which operate on a similar mantra - in my experience only of course, but that includes a range of breeds from Staffords through to yorkies.

 

[Jenko109]

Well, what’s the point of showjumping? Or anything that us humans ask animals to do for our amusement for that matter? And just like many sports, I’m sure there is a lot that goes into training that we, as non-aficionados, are not aware of. I don’t particularly “get” fly ball either, BTW, but I know that any of my lot would LOVE to go mad chasing a ball at full tilt, over and over again.

I dont doubt it takes a fair bit of training, but once you have a trained dog, it appears pretty effortless for the handler and seemingly lacking in team work between handler and dog. I may be completely off, but I would assume that you could bring a novice handler in to take over an already trained dog and tell them to let the dog go at a certain point and then wag their toy around as they run back and they would do just fine and the dog would perform much the same.

I wouldnt personally liken it to show jumping for the same reason. Getting a decent round in show jumping *usually* requires so much more than the ability to point and shoot.

Perhaps there is more to it than the untrained eye can see.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I dont doubt it takes a fair bit of training, but once you have a trained dog, it appears pretty effortless for the handler and seemingly lacking in team work between handler and dog. I may be completely off, but I would assume that you could bring a novice handler in to take over an already trained dog and tell them to let the dog go at a certain point and then wag their toy around as they run back and they would do just fine and the dog would perform much the same.

I wouldnt personally liken it to show jumping for the same reason. Getting a decent round in show jumping *usually* requires so much more than the ability to point and shoot.

Perhaps there is more to it than the untrained eye can see.

I don't know that much about flyball but I do know that a novice handler would struggle with the timing. I'm sure people who do flyball can explain better, but there is an electric starting beam and the aim is to time it so the first dog starts just as the light hits go, and subsequent dogs change over just as the incoming dog crosses the beam. Start too early and you have to run again, start too late and seconds are lost.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

In many breeds it’s an old boys club mentality. Some people could walk up with a ferret or a French lop on a fancy show slip lead and get placed. Standards are linked so closely to breed clubs, many of which operate on a similar mantra - in my experience only of course, but that includes a range of breeds from Staffords through to yorkies.

Someone I used to know back in the 70's was a well known breeder, exhibitor and judge of boxers. She used to talk about the old boys network, very much a case of you put my dog today and I will put yours up next time. She didn't like it but if you wanted to get anywhere you had to go with it. She gave up on Boxers and changed to Tibetan Spaniels which had only just started being seen about.

A woman I worked with got into breeding and showing British Shorthair cats. The stories she could tell about what went on were horrific.

 

[pistolpete]

Yep. It’s all about whether your face fits I reckon. Same in horse showing I’m afraid.

 

[twiggy2]

It will continue until the masses stop supporting it, it makes money and tension of thousands still support it in person and even more by watching on TV.
Look at the coverage it's getting.