The 'Grand' National?

I am sure you will have already found this as you are so keen to know about it ;-) This is World Horse Welfares take on it http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Ar...s-collaboration-with-Retraining-of-Racehorses


and a bit off their FB page "the retraining programme is being completely funded by charity Retraining of Racehorses, and the horses will remain the property of us for life, being loaned by rehomers as opposed to sold, in order to safeguard their future."
 
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nope, I didn't know anything about it ...

"So, in addition to the centres that already receive RoR funding, we are delighted to be working with World Horse Welfare and to be able use their extensive experience and expertise."

So this bit ^^^^^ seems to contradict what is being said in the previous article, "Under their contracts, the centres have now received a year’s notice and the funding will cease at the end of 2015".

ummmmm .... any further clarification ...
 
how odd ... the Chief Exectuive of RoR seems to hold similar opinions to myself ... now who'd have thunk it .... me, an over-emotional, under-informed numpty ...

In a telephone comment Mrs Arbuthnot added: “We cannot continue to fund retraining of retired racehorses in the current way. Owners and trainers have to be responsible for their horses’ future outside racing and must fund their retraining.They have to be made accountable and pay for the retraining, otherwise it is like throwing your granny out on the street when she is too old. Because of that we cannot continue the current funding scheme.”
 
From reading this thread, it seems that those who are pro-racing are the ones who have taken on ex-racehorses after their racing career is over. I myself am on my third, and I know Justabob is an ex-racehorse owner. So the ones who support racing are the ones who take them on. Tess, how many ex-racers have you taken on? You say that you want to see something done after their careers are over, so if you want to take one on, there are plenty of us on here who can put you in touch with some relevant people.
 
Many stable staff can't bear to part with their charges and take them home too. That's why I ended up with 3 from work and 1 from another yard ... 3 injured when I took them home, one retired due to age.
 
Holly Hocks said:
From reading this thread, it seems that those who are pro-racing are the ones who have taken on ex-racehorses after their racing career is over. I myself am on my third, and I know Justabob is an ex-racehorse owner. So the ones who support racing are the ones who take them on. Tess, how many ex-racers have you taken on? You say that you want to see something done after their careers are over, so if you want to take one on, there are plenty of us on here who can put you in touch with some relevant people.
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ha ha ... no, you're OK, thanks for the offer, but at my altitude I would rather take on Welsh ponies and cobs ... much more suited to the conditions of my land. Otherwise I would end up as being labelled one of those numpties who took on a TB when they didn't have adequate resources to meet his needs.
 
EKW said:
Many stable staff can't bear to part with their charges and take them home too. That's why I ended up with 3 from work and 1 from another yard ... 3 injured when I took them home, one retired due to age.
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lovely ... now if they were all like you, none of us would need to worry at all, would we.
 
Holly Hocks said:
From reading this thread, it seems that those who are pro-racing are the ones who have taken on ex-racehorses after their racing career is over. I myself am on my third, and I know Justabob is an ex-racehorse owner. So the ones who support racing are the ones who take them on. Tess, how many ex-racers have you taken on? You say that you want to see something done after their careers are over, so if you want to take one on, there are plenty of us on here who can put you in touch with some relevant people.
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Why should she take a racehorse on if she is not involved in the industry ? that is tantamount to the general public helping racing out when it really should be sorting out its own issues.
 
EKW said:
Many stable staff can't bear to part with their charges and take them home too. That's why I ended up with 3 from work and 1 from another yard ... 3 injured when I took them home, one retired due to age.
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I know someone who did that - the horses lass was the only one who could manage it and when its racing career was over the owner "gave" the horse to her
 
Smurf's Gran said:
I know someone who did that - the horses lass was the only one who could manage it and when its racing career was over the owner "gave" the horse to her
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I was given one of mine to stop an argument between the trainer and the person who had the owners PTP'er! Both wanted to have him in work so I rang the owner and said I would take him home - he was given to me gladly so he didn't have 2 women constantly narking at him over the animal lol! None of my 3 from work were ever going to go anywhere other than home with me when they finished racing. They were 'My' horses. There have been a few more but alas I can not take them all home but I do make sure 'My' horses find the best homes! Anther one of which is happy hacking round the South downs with my grand mother!
 
tess1 said:
lovely ... now if they were all like you, none of us would need to worry at all, would we.
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I'd suggest that you look at the website of Lucinda Russel and you will see just how many of their retired animals are put in to well considered homes; 'Well Considered' being the operative words. There certainly are those horses which with a careful and with a well thought through rehabilitation plan, can be absorbed back in to the happy-hacking way of life, but rest assured that there are many which have become so damaged by the racing industry, generally flat bred horses, and to let them go to anyone but THE most experienced, would be irresponsible at the very least. Most responsible owners choose to put their horses down when their racing days are over. The highly successful may well go on to a pampered retirement, but the bulk of race horses aren't successful, and equally, they can be a frightful liability. I've bred a good few TBs, over the years, and not one has ever been racing. Every one of them, brought up as we would bring up any horse, has been no more difficult than any other youngster, and they've all gone on to live useful lives.

I know, I know, there can be 100 posts advising that 'I've got a friend" etc etc, but the 'bulk' of those flat bred horses, which are sold on and all so often fillies, go from pillar to post, they're bought by the inexperienced and simply because they're cheap, and having been owned by syndicates, the instructions are to simply get rid of the horse, and again, all so often the kindest thing to do is to send the horse off to heaven. Sadly, the re-homing of ex racehorses isn't generally the answer. A few can be got round, but the bulk of them are damaged goods and the horror stories are legion.

My arguments are considering what is 'generally' in the best interest of the horse itself. I'd very much like to be wrong, but I fear that I'm not.

Alec.
 
Thanks for sharing your opinion, although I'm not sure whether you are saying RoR efforts/funding are a waste of time, or not? Just to reiterate, I don't believe that in any of my posts I've suggested that passing on TBs to inappropriate homes is the way forward. I do agree with you that the industry damages horses very badly, and for some there is a point of no return. I think I did say that each horse should be assessed as an individual by experienced staff, in an ideal world (which the world is not, I appreciate). I am sure that some very nice horses have been shot, and some seriously damaged and dangerous animals have ended up in situtions which is of no benefit to either themselves or anyone else. It may well be a leap beyond the imagination of most race supporters to consider that a sport which damages its athletes so badly that there is no possible chance of rehabiliation when their careers are over could do with some modification. That may well be seen as over-complicating things. It is, of course, much easier to just shoot them.

I'm still waiting for enlightenment re the two articles from those people who told me how well the racehorse industry was doing at funding its own. It would be interesting to know whether these proposed changes will result in more or less funding, greater or fewer numbers of horses put into re-training programmes, and whether the BHA is serious about its comments on owners and trainers needing to take responsibility for the re-training of their horses ... or whether it's simply a get out clause for the BHA to avoid putting more money into re-training programmes.
 
Alec Swan said:
A few can be got round, but the bulk of them are damaged goods and the horror stories are legion.
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This isn't my experience. I have bought ten, most at Doncaster sales, and retrained them. Nine made really nice horses. One was fine unless her feet hit grass in an open space. One of the nine got navicular. All bar the navicular case were sold on to good homes, in the days before ex racers were worth a pittance.

As an aside, I don't believe any more racehorses are rehomed now than they ever were, possibly fewer. In the days before microchips they were bought in bulk by dealers and sold on without their passports as 3/4 or 7/8 ID crosses. These days, it is much more obvious how many of them are hitting the market and the value has consequently crashed.

This in turn has meant that it is impossible to make a profit on retraining them if you keep them for a decent training period, resulting in fewer people like me buying one or two a year to turn into riding club horses. I think the retraining really needs to be done by charities, and that has to be funded somehow by the industry, surely?
 
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The value of all horses has crashed though, especially ones without competition experience, it's not just tb's that are struggling to find good homes.
 
bonny said:
The value of all horses has crashed though, especially ones without competition experience, it's not just tb's that are struggling to find good homes.
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It used to be possible until about 1999. to sell a retrained ex race who had done some riding club dressage and show jumping for the same price as any other horse of a similar size who had done the same. The sweet spot was 2,500, which I got or exceeded for eight of mine and 1850 for the flighty mare.

I don't think that is the case now, and while the market is low for all horse, it is disastrous for ex racers.

I could sell both my youngsters now for more than double what I paid for them last year (i have offers, this is not just a fantasy). If I'd bought them from Doncaster instead, they'd still be worth a lot less than their keep and what I paid for them at Doncaster, where the minimum bid last time I looked was 800 guineas.
 
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ycbm said:
It used to be possible to sell a retrained ex race who had done some riding club dressage and show jumping for the same price as any other horse of a similar size who had done the same. I don't think that is the case now, and while the market is low for all horse, it is disastrous for ex racers.

I could sell both my youngsters now for more than double what I paid for them last year (i have offers, this is not just a fantasy). If I'd bought them from Doncaster instead, they'd still be worth pretty much what I paid for them at Doncaster, where the minimum bid last time I looked was 800 guineas.
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Then part of the problem has to be public perception of tb's which isn't helped by threads like this, by lumping them all in together and by the idea that they are all physical and mental wrecks and will be regardless of how long ago they raced !
 
bonny said:
Then part of the problem has to be public perception of tb's which isn't helped by threads like this, by lumping them all in together and by the idea that they are all physical and mental wrecks and will be regardless of how long ago they raced !
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I agree. That's why I posted my own experience that they make good horses. I think only Alec has said that they don't, but I haven't read the thread in detail.
 
tess1 said:
I just wonder could anyone shed any futher light on this ....

http://www.jeanniesequestrianworld.co.uk/2014/11/22/protest-funding-loss-retraining-ex-racehorses/
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You are amazing Tess1, have you ever thought of standing for parliament, because your ability to pick out sentences and quotes out of context to build your argument are worthy of most ministers vying for control of this country. 3 days you have pontificated, argued, annoyed, what have you achieved............nothing other than to irritate. On the other hand, myself and others have been busy looking after our ex race horses, our sheep as it is lambing time, and in the case of all you hold vile, the wonderful staff in racing yards looking after their charges. You, on the other hand must have spent many an hour on this forum spouting uninformed rubbish about a subject you know nothing about other than you have misguidedly surmised from god knows where. May I suggest that you take a look at a group called Racehorses Where Are They Now, you will find that in this group on Face Book that there are 12,500 members, most of which have re-homed at least one race horse. Some very high profile horses and some not so. Some of us are proactive and some like your self talk the talk and achieve begger all. Now go and do something constructive.
 
justabob said:
You are amazing Tess1, have you ever thought of standing for parliament, because your ability to pick out sentences and quotes out of context to build your argument are worthy of most ministers vying for control of this country. 3 days you have pontificated, argued, annoyed, what have you achieved............nothing other than to irritate. On the other hand, myself and others have been busy looking after our ex race horses, our sheep as it is lambing time, and in the case of all you hold vile, the wonderful staff in racing yards looking after their charges. You, on the other hand must have spent many an hour on this forum spouting uninformed rubbish about a subject you know nothing about other than you have misguidedly surmised from god knows where. May I suggest that you take a look at a group called Racehorses Where Are They Now, you will find that in this group on Face Book that there are 12,500 members, most of which have re-homed at least one race horse. Some very high profile horses and some not so. Some of us are proactive and some like your self talk the talk and achieve begger all. Now go and do something constructive.
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I couldnt agree more, how she is able to spend all day and night on here I don't know. If she really wanted to know the answer to these problems she is addressing the wrong people, people can only give their own experiences after all. Perhaps Tess would be better getting it from the horses mouth the BHA, please let us know their response.

Justabob I hope she doesn't join that fb group which is a lovely harmonious group, I just love seeing all the photos and peoples stories of their ex racers.
 
justabob said:
You are amazing Tess1, have you ever thought of standing for parliament, because your ability to pick out sentences and quotes out of context to build your argument are worthy of most ministers vying for control of this country. 3 days you have pontificated, argued, annoyed, what have you achieved............nothing other than to irritate. On the other hand, myself and others have been busy looking after our ex race horses, our sheep as it is lambing time, and in the case of all you hold vile, the wonderful staff in racing yards looking after their charges. You, on the other hand must have spent many an hour on this forum spouting uninformed rubbish about a subject you know nothing about other than you have misguidedly surmised from god knows where. May I suggest that you take a look at a group called Racehorses Where Are They Now, you will find that in this group on Face Book that there are 12,500 members, most of which have re-homed at least one race horse. Some very high profile horses and some not so. Some of us are proactive and some like your self talk the talk and achieve begger all. Now go and do something constructive.
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Justabob. How very rude your comments are.

Perhaps you could add something intelligent to the debate instead of the above personal attack. I don't find Tess - 1's comments irritating at all - she has as much right to be here as you, and to ask the questions she has. You may not have noticed but her questions have sparked some interesting information and others have provided info also, as a result of this debate I have learned things about RoR and rehab that I didn't know. This has been very helpful for many I'm sure.
 
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Dobiegirl said:
I couldnt agree more, how she is able to spend all day and night on here I don't know. If she really wanted to know the answer to these problems she is addressing the wrong people, people can only give their own experiences after all. Perhaps Tess would be better getting it from the horses mouth the BHA, please let us know their response.

Justabob I hope she doesn't join that fb group which is a lovely harmonious group, I just love seeing all the photos and peoples stories of their ex racers.
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Why not use the opportunity to educate rather than to denigrate for asking questions. many people on here have provided info that has been helpful.

Incidentally, I did contact the BHA myself a couple of years ago in regard to something of concern printed in a newspaper - I found them to be really unhelpful and dismissive.
 
justabob said:
You are amazing Tess1, have you ever thought of standing for parliament, because your ability to pick out sentences and quotes out of context to build your argument are worthy of most ministers vying for control of this country. 3 days you have pontificated, argued, annoyed, what have you achieved............nothing other than to irritate. On the other hand, myself and others have been busy looking after our ex race horses, our sheep as it is lambing time, and in the case of all you hold vile, the wonderful staff in racing yards looking after their charges. You, on the other hand must have spent many an hour on this forum spouting uninformed rubbish about a subject you know nothing about other than you have misguidedly surmised from god knows where. May I suggest that you take a look at a group called Racehorses Where Are They Now, you will find that in this group on Face Book that there are 12,500 members, most of which have re-homed at least one race horse. Some very high profile horses and some not so. Some of us are proactive and some like your self talk the talk and achieve begger all. Now go and do something constructive.
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So it would appear you have nothing further of any worth to add to the argument, and have now resorted to personal attacks. Please explain what sentences are out of context, I have posted links to the full articles. The quotes/figures in this thread have come from the BHA and the Chief Exec of RoR. You have no idea what I've been doing in the last three days ... nor is it any of your business, frankly. At no time have I in any way, shape or form insinuated that stable staff are vile, to me they are the most genuine people of all in horse racing, generally speaking ... so please try to remember the difference between personal opinion (I am amazing, annoying and irritating) and a lie (I hold stable staff to be vile). It's interesting that my uninformed rubbish seems to be echoed in an opinion that has gone on record from the Chief Exec of RoR, and that attacks on me have become more personal when I have asked for clarification on the current and future status of RoR and similar schemes. I would have thought that folk who profess so much 'respect' and 'understanding' for race horses would be informed on what the BHA plans to put in place to help them when they retire.

I didn't realise you had admin status and could tell me that I could no longer post on this thread.
 
tess1 has conducted her argument with good manners and without resorting to name calling .
Those who find this irritating should perhaps consider withdrawing from the thread themselves if they can't cope with debating an issue without resorting to being unpleasant and rude .
I don't agree with tess1's point of view but I understand where she coming from and she has every right to express it and spend as much time as she likes doing so.
 
I have to say I've found it an interesting discussion, I am not anti racing but that doesn't mean I don't think improvements could be made for the continued welfare of the horses involved and I don't understand why that seems to be such an issue for others.

Justabob I actually thought you above such personal posts, there are plenty of people that think individuals can only do so much and that lobbying further up on things will lead to greater improvements (not just for racehorses!)
 
Goldenstar said:
tess1 has conducted her argument with good manners and without resorting to name calling .
Those who find this irritating should perhaps consider withdrawing from the thread themselves if they can't cope with debating an issue without resorting to being unpleasant and rude .
I don't agree with tess1's point of view but I understand where she coming from and she has every right to express it and spend as much time as she likes doing so.
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Well said, GS.
 
bonny said:
Then part of the problem has to be public perception of tb's which isn't helped by threads like this, by lumping them all in together and by the idea that they are all physical and mental wrecks and will be regardless of how long ago they raced !
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Only Alec has suggested that they are all beyond redemption (if I understood his post correctly). The point of 'threads like this' is to put forward the view that many racehorses are redeemable, and could have a happy retirement, or be retrained for an alternative activity, and that effort and money should go into finding ways to do that for as many as possible - notwithstanding that there will be some - usually from the flat - who are beyond help and hope. And that the racing industry itself should take responsibility for that, seeing as it is built on the back of these horses. Personally, I think the 'racing industry' should encompass the wider picture - bookies and punters, not just owners and trainers.
 
fburton said:
Is it really the breeding more than the training? I brought up a TB from a foal and didn't do much more with him than hacking out, and while he enjoyed his gallops he had a super gentle temperament - biddable, willing and kind.
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Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and TB's brought up in a different environment where they have a one to one with someone on a day to day level would I imagine have a different behaviour than those who live in stables 23 hours a day on a racing yard. What I meant is that an Arab, TB or WB is obviously 'hotter blooded' that an Irish cob, Welshie, or a Shire and would therefore be more problematic with regards rehoming to people not used this type of horse.

Personally I have always believed that the 'nurture v nature' debate is about 70% / 30% anyway.
 
tess1 said:
Only Alec has suggested that they are all beyond redemption (if I understood his post correctly). …….. .
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You didn't understand my post correctly. Read again what I wrote, and you may come away with a better understanding.

Whilst not being aimed specifically at you tess1, it still amazes me that so many sit in judgement and base their often theorised twaddle around what they've read, rather than their own experiences.

Alec.
 
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