The 'Grand' National?

I have watched this thread with interest including the way it has been hijacked to score political welfare points this discussion has nothing to do with the OPs point about the horse who won the grand national and who will eventually have a wonderful retirement at THs stud.
I think Tess you need to get real how many ex racehorses do you think can be successfully rehomed in homes where there future is assured,because the last thing I want is any of my horses at the end of their careers ending up with some of the numpties that get their hands on them., I think the percentage will be very small. However I do take responsibility for all the horses I breed and on occasion PTS is the correct choice even with horses that potentially can be rehomed.
Tess you seem very anti this approach with any horse apart from the nutters but surely it is the responsible approach,if the owner is not sure the horse will be looked after correctly.
I am sure Tess you will distort what I have said , I am not sure if you are deliberately doing it or are totally deluded on this quest.
 
You're being pernickety now.

The reality is that until we are in charge of racing or connected to racing in some form or another, as owners or trainers, we, Joe Public, are not able to change a thing. Over the years, I've learnt it is a waste of energy and angst to fret about the things I can't in any way shape or form, change to my ideal; when that situation changes, I'll be in line like the rest of us.
 
not really my 'quest' though is it ... it's all about RoR ...

I think I've probably addressed all those points somewhere in the past 40 something pages ... inappropriate homes not the way forward etc etc ad nausem. I also think I've addressed the 'responsible decision' argument clearly enough ... if you don't agree it's not a problem ... everyone is entitled to their opinion.

anyway, signing off now. bbq tonight - no horse burgers though, much to Alec's disappointment, I am sure.

Thank you for the nice pms :-)

Have fun without me ...
 
tess1 said:
if owners were forced to pay for their retirement for the rest of their lives, then some owners would put the horse to sleep as a default option.

But that is not the same as saying "what if everyone were charged a little more". I am not suggesting that an owner should fund a horse for the rest of his life after retirement ... I am saying that, if a revenue was gathered from owners, trainers, punters and bookies - then there would be a 'pot' that could fund each horse's retraining/retirement if they were assesed as being suitable. The severely damaged ones that cannot cope outside the institutionalised environment of racing, then yes, sadly, there is only one option ... but lots of horses could be eased into an enjoyable retirement in various guises. The involvement of bona fide charities, with appropriately experienced staff would ensure that each horse is given either the best retirement option, or, if at any stage it becomes clear they are not going to be safe to handle, a swift and humane end. Homes could be checked and track kept of where horses are. This must surely be better than the current option where the decision rests with the owners, and, if they have no attachment to the horse, shooting will be seen as the easiest (not, necessarily, to my mind) the most responsible choice. To decide to have a horse shot is the most responsible choice if that horse is a danger to himself and possibly those that handle him outside a racing environment, and it is deemed that a process of retraining by experienced folk is not going to improve that situation. Having a horse shot who could lead a useful and happy life after racing is not the most responsible choice, it's just the easiest one for a lot of owners who do not want to be bothered with worrying about their animals once their racing days are over. With a decent system in place the owner would not even need to be involved in the decision making - unless they wanted to be. What is so bad about the racing industry as a whole stepping up and taking responsibility for the fate these animals?

By the way ... if you want to call me over-emotional or under-informed go right ahead, don't pussy foot around by saying "this isn't addressed to anyone but ..." ... at least I haven't compared the plight of racehorses to dumping your granny in the street like the Chief Exec of RoR.
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The thing is I am more than capable of retraining any horse I choose to take on I don't what antyone tracking them inferring in any way with my decisions which is why I would never take one from a rehomeing charity .
When I decide to PTS a horse I don't want anyone else with a finger in the pie.
I don't want J's trainer ( who bred him as well ) taking any responsibility for him the horse has me to take responsibility for him now .
 
I think if this enormous thread proves one thing it is that there is no real answer to the surplus of horses coming out of training.
I would be very sad to see them all being PTS or sent to rehoming charities though as I would have never have had the pleasure of owning 3 of the most wonderful horses I have ever owned.
We bought our last ex-racehorse direct from the trainer 2 weeks after he had run his last race. We paid 1,000 for him, he is beautifully put together , clean legged and the most perfect extravagant straight mover. Had he been a warmblood he would have been 3 times the price.
For those with knowledge, experience and the ability to confidently handle and ride these horses it is the perfect way to get a real quality athlete of an animal at a bargain price.
I really don't see a catch all to stop some ex racehorses ending up in the hands of unsuitable 'numpty' type owners. However, the same can be said of all horses unfortunately.
 
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I was born in Findon (Sussex), home of many a racehorse trainer and also home of many decent TBs. I am in my sixties now and my life took me via the eventing route; in the early years (certainly up to the 90s) I saw many ex-racehorses going into eventing, when of course, it was long format, and more blood was required and there was less emphasis on dressage.

I am not saying that all of these horses became successful four star eventers....they did not! Many fell by the wayside due to soundness issues primarily. However, whilst eventing was long format and sponsorship was not as rife as it is today, many skilled horsemen were prepared/happy to consider a TB as a potential eventer.

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but with an element of sincerity behind it, the laws of supply and demand will always determine 'price', so maybe those with issues about what currently happens to ex-racers should look at creating the demand for them by lobbying BE for a return to long format?? :D
 
I'd rather any money pots were spent on rehabilitation than retirement for the others (hence my PTS comment). I do think retirement for them would be a bit sentimental.
 
gunnergundog said:
I was born in Findon (Sussex), home of many a racehorse trainer and also home of many decent TBs. I am in my sixties now and my life took me via the eventing route; in the early years (certainly up to the 90s) I saw many ex-racehorses going into eventing, when of course, it was long format, and more blood was required and there was less emphasis on dressage.

I am not saying that all of these horses became successful four star eventers....they did not! Many fell by the wayside due to soundness issues primarily. However, whilst eventing was long format and sponsorship was not as rife as it is today, many skilled horsemen were prepared/happy to consider a TB as a potential eventer.

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but with an element of sincerity behind it, the laws of supply and demand will always determine 'price', so maybe those with issues about what currently happens to ex-racers should look at creating the demand for them by lobbying BE for a return to long format?? :D
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Yes more TB's were reused in both eventing and show jumping prior to warm bloods and sport horses becoming so popular. It is a pity in my opinion that the TB is less used in horse sport.
 
Honeylight said:
Yes more TB's were reused in both eventing and show jumping prior to warm bloods and sport horses becoming so popular. It is a pity in my opinion that the TB is less used in horse sport.
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I do recall an instructor of mine saying that one of the reasons for introducing the short-format was because the warmbloods/non-TBs couldn't compete with the TBs on the long-format.
 
Maesfen said:
I'm sorry but it's pointless for us to get hot under the collar about something it is not in our power to change because we are not the ones responsible for any racehorse and what goes on with it either in or out of racing; the owners and the trainers are. They are the ones who can change things.
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I don't see it as pointless at all. We could try and educate them though.

I personally am anti racing. That is to say that I dislike racing and would not go to watch it myself, however I have had a flutter from time to time. Maybe I am two faced. I have no real experience in the matter other than what I have heard first hand about ex racehorses from a physio friend of mine who deals with them on quite a large scale. I know that racing a horse before its bones, joints and ligaments are fully formed is very likely to cause huge repercussions in the future and I know that many hundreds have been pts on our racetracks due to injuries that 'leisure horses' would not (on the whole be treated for) but obviously the cost of treating such an animal when it is very unlikely to ever race again is pointless to the racehorse trainer and the owner of the horse. I say obviously, but in my mind it is not obviously. I also think that a horse that is stabled for most of its life (up to 23 hours a day in some cases) is damaged phychologically, never mind the physical damage it may endure. Just because a horse switches off after a few weeks and seems accepting of its confinement doesn't mean that it is happy. The way horses switch off is key to their very survival. It is a coping mechanism and nothing more, lets not pretend otherwise.

The damage to a horse from a single fall can be catastrophic, even if the horse manages to escape the gun. A fall to any horse has the potential to cause problems for the rest of its life, and there are horses who have fallen and raced many times again.

How many of us would encourage our toddlers/young children to run a marathon? Or to attend a fitness session down the gym? But what we are saying in my eyes is that it is okay for horses to do this because they are a) easily disposed of b) no one givens a damn anyway c) their lives are not really worth that much.

Totally shocking.
 
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Actually, I think that Joe Public has had quite a big influence on racehorse welfare, so to say "we can't do anything" is wrong. Think of the reduction in severity of the Grand National for a start, then the use of the whip and the support of the Retraining Racehorse charities. So there have been huge strides, and IMO it is a good thing (not 100% sure about the GN, but three years with no fatalities is good).

However, there is a limit. As we unfortunately experience ourselves as horse owners, a horse can fatally damage itself at any time - in the field, the stable, in the stable yard, out for a hack or at a competition. We ALL know people who have lost horses in awful ways, but they are private, not on the TV on a Saturday afternoon with thousands of people watching.

I suppose I would be considered callous, but in my mind a racehorse has a job to do and that is to run in races. Hopefully the trainer will prepare it correctly and enter in the correct race, the jockey wants to win, but hopefully all of them have some care of their own and the horse's neck, and the owners want to see their horses run and do well. The fact that some horses get injured in training or on the racecourse is unfortunate, but unless racing is simply banned I can't see an answer. After all, even dressage trained event horses going round by themselves sometimes get it wrong and fall.

I think that racehorses horses are much better prepared for jump racing now, and I watch most Saturdays on TV and notice that there seem to be much fewer fallers. Also many trainers do the breaking-in and early training with the thought that the horse might have a life after racing.
 
Oliver and Tarnya Sherwood have posted a lovely update, which has been shared on FB by one of the vet practices who had vets there on the day, and were seen tending to him after the race.

We are overwhelmed by all of the kind messages and emails that we’ve received since Saturdays Crabbie’s Grand National win. It was a truly wonderful occasion and we are touched by everyone’s good wishes and are in the process of responding to everyone individually.

We would also like to thank all of the Aintree racecourse staff, in particular the team of vets who took such great care of Many Clouds after the race and also to applaud the unique cooling-off area which enabled him to recover so quickly.

Many Clouds is in terrific form, enjoying his days in the field, and will be returning to Mr Hemmings’ stud for his holiday soon.

All our best wishes,
Oliver and Tarnya Sherwood
 
Tiddlypom said:
Oliver and Tarnya Sherwood have posted a lovely update, which has been shared on FB by one of the vet practices who had vets there on the day, and were seen tending to him after the race.

We are overwhelmed by all of the kind messages and emails that we’ve received since Saturdays Crabbie’s Grand National win. It was a truly wonderful occasion and we are touched by everyone’s good wishes and are in the process of responding to everyone individually.

We would also like to thank all of the Aintree racecourse staff, in particular the team of vets who took such great care of Many Clouds after the race and also to applaud the unique cooling-off area which enabled him to recover so quickly.

Many Clouds is in terrific form, enjoying his days in the field, and will be returning to Mr Hemmings’ stud for his holiday soon.

All our best wishes,
Oliver and Tarnya Sherwood
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Thank you TP..lovely to hear.
 
On the subject of conditions, care and affection for racehorses, people might want to take a look at this: http://stable-life.blogspot.co.uk/
Newmarket trainer John Berry clearly loves horses and all animals and as shown in the pictures his horses, it is mainly a flat yard, get regular turn out and opportunity to express natural instincts.
 
Personally I think all horses should be pts, because owners, trainers, jockeys have no idea how they the horses should be A)Be looked after B) Ridden C) Treated, according to several posters on here and that is why H/H Forum is going down rapidly and we have the Anti's spouting garbage as usual. Oliver Sherwood said on the Channel 4 that the Aintree stewards were told about Many Clouds may have problems as other trainers have told them about their horses problems. These Antis are just bigoted people and I for one disregard anything they say. Can I come and pts their horses for them as they seem to want them living in Hell not allowed to to do anything that might make them break into a sweat. No horses No Problem dont you agree
 
Orangehorse said:
However, there is a limit. As we unfortunately experience ourselves as horse owners, a horse can fatally damage itself at any time - in the field, the stable, in the stable yard, out for a hack or at a competition. We ALL know people who have lost horses in awful ways, but they are private, not on the TV on a Saturday afternoon with thousands of people watching.

I suppose I would be considered callous, but in my mind a racehorse has a job to do and that is to run in races. Hopefully the trainer will prepare it correctly and enter in the correct race, the jockey wants to win, but hopefully all of them have some care of their own and the horse's neck, and the owners want to see their horses run and do well. The fact that some horses get injured in training or on the racecourse is unfortunate, but unless racing is simply banned I can't see an answer. After all, even dressage trained event horses going round by themselves sometimes get it wrong and fall.
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I 100% agree with this. No owner, trainer, jockey or stable lad/pass wants to see their horse come back injured, or worse, not come back at all.
 
Moomin1 said:
I'm really quite shocked to read so many comments on this thread condoning a horse overheating simply because 'that's what it does often'. That doesn't make it acceptable. If that horse has an issue with overheating then IMO it should not be racing in the National for starters..
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I agree totally with this.

However, I do think it was great that C4 showed what was being done to cool and care for Many Clouds. And I thought the footage earlier in the afternoon showing the jockey who fell in the fence asking after, looking for and caring for the horse he came off did the industry a great deal of good.


Those daft interviews immediately the horse has slowed to a walk need doing away with, I've thought that for ages, and not just on this occasion.
 
Having now read most of the posts ( I skimmed some of the rants) . To all those against racing I think it is not too broad a statement to say nearly all well cared for horses benefit from the industry !
It is the main and majority finance behind research be it veterinary , nutrition , husbandry, the sports horse of today. Etc etc

I agree rehoming is a problem, and even if every horse was suitable there just wouldn't be enough suitable homes. Several here speak a lot of sense , and no surprise it's coming from those actually involved with the industry.

Finally for all those bunny hugging types that think many clouds should never run again because he overheated, did you not ever watch Athletics , especially the marathons, it happens to people to, they push themselves to the limit. Should they all retire to?
 
lannerch said:
Finally for all those bunny hugging types that think many clouds should never run again because he overheated, did you not ever watch Athletics , especially the marathons, it happens to people to, they push themselves to the limit. Should they all retire to?
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'Bunny huggers'. How patronising. Do you not realise how you instantly devalue your point of view by dropping in such a petty little put-down?

Several HHOers with first hand knowledge of racing have made very helpful and considered contributions to this thread, and I thank them for that. IMHO, it has largely been an interesting and educational read.
 
lannerch said:
Finally for all those bunny hugging types that think many clouds should never run again because he overheated, did you not ever watch Athletics , especially the marathons, it happens to people to, they push themselves to the limit. Should they all retire to?
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I defend every human being's right to risk their own lives in any way that they choose.

How that compares with a human choosing to put an animal at risk escapes me.

If it was a child, would you agree with it?
 
ycbm said:
I defend every human being's right to risk their own lives in any way that they choose.

How that compares with a human choosing to put an animal at risk escapes me.

If it was a child, would you agree with it?
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the horse not the human over exherted itself well maybe the human as well. What has that to do with a child I do not know.

I choose to put my horses life at risk to, I event him , well I would if he had not damaged himself in the field, and yes I choose to risk his life by turning him out as well!

I'm not going to Continue debating on horse racing others who are associated or in the industry have put their case across far better than I ever could.
If you don't like it don't support it or watch it.
And I have no problem with that
 
lannerch said:
the horse not the human over exherted itself well maybe the human as well. What has that to do with a child I do not know.

I choose to put my horses life at risk to, I event him , well I would if he had not damaged himself in the field, and yes I choose to risk his life by turning him out as well!

I'm not going to Continue debating on horse racing others who are associated or in the industry have put their case across far better than I ever could.
If you don't like it don't support it or watch it.
And I have no problem with that
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You have misunderstood me I think. I wasn't referring to risk in general or making any comment on racing in general, which is a huge and valuable industry.

I was replying to your specific post about choosing to run a horse which almost collapses from heat exhaustion in the most demanding race in the UK racing calendar. If you would event your horse even if he repeatedly almost collapses at the end of the cross country, then I honestly believe you would be reported.
 
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ycbm said:
…….. about choosing to run a horse which almost collapses from heat exhaustion in the most demanding race in the UK racing calendar. If you would event your horse even if he repeatedly almost collapses at the end of the cross country, then I honestly believe you would be reported.
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^^^^ undeniably so, and it would be right in my view that a committee decision would be the likely outcome. That said, we've all seen horses finish a cross country course in an exhausted state and some little better than Many Clouds, but whether it's the animal's fitness level or their individual metabolism, I'm never too sure!

There's an implied risk with putting any horse in the National, or round any Event course, but that isn't the question, as I see it; rather the question is should an animal which displays such obvious distress be put through such an ordeal? That's a question for each and every owner. Personally, I wouldn't, but as others have said, it's each to their own views! :)

Alec.
 
Tiddlypom said:
'Bunny huggers'. How patronising. Do you not realise how you instantly devalue your point of view by dropping in such a petty little put-down?

Several HHOers with first hand knowledge of racing have made very helpful and considered contributions to this thread, and I thank them for that. IMHO, it has largely been an interesting and educational read.
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agree
 
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lannerch said:
Having now read most of the posts ( I skimmed some of the rants) . To all those against racing I think it is not too broad a statement to say nearly all well cared for horses benefit from the industry !
It is the main and majority finance behind research be it veterinary , nutrition , husbandry, the sports horse of today. Etc etc

I agree rehoming is a problem, and even if every horse was suitable there just wouldn't be enough suitable homes. Several here speak a lot of sense , and no surprise it's coming from those actually involved with the industry.

Finally for all those bunny hugging types that think many clouds should never run again because he overheated, did you not ever watch Athletics , especially the marathons, it happens to people to, they push themselves to the limit. Should they all retire to?
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I was reading your post with interest until you started with the insults. Couldn't agree with TP more really.
 
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