The Great Debate: Valegro vs Totilas

[dibbin]

This may well have been done already, but ...

For me there's absolutely no competition, Valegro is far superior to Totilas in movement and in attitude, but it will be interesting to see how their scores compare at the Europeans and beyond.

Who is everyone else's money on?

 

[Clever pony]

I think Valero too. He seems to have good attitude and works well.

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

One is trained sympathetically, correctly, has an amazing partnership with his rider and gets turned out, goes hacking and generally has a happy, varied life.
The other probably hasn't seen beyond 4 walls in years, is trained with rollkur which us very evident in his way of going and the fact he's always injured and has sadly become a soulless profit making machine for the owners. I know which one I'd favour and I think any judge would be blind or bonkers to choose the other!

 

[FBDD]

One is trained sympathetically, correctly, has an amazing partnership with his rider and gets turned out, goes hacking and generally has a happy, varied life.
The other probably hasn't seen beyond 4 walls in years, is trained with rollkur which us very evident in his way of going and the fact he's always injured and has sadly become a soulless profit making machine for the owners. I know which one I'd favour and I think any judge would be blind or bonkers to choose the other!

Nat wood, you've made some interesting points here but do you have PROOF of this? Or are you just assuming this as Totalis's life and training? No one should make any type of accusations without knowing the facts.

For me, I hope that they are both sound and produce the amazing work they can so its a real competition. Not biased in who wins just love appreciating the power, suppleness, athleticism and harmony with rider ��

 

[crabbymare]

The latest pictures and videos of Totilas are not great so right now (comparatively his back end is doing very little) there should ba no contest but if you could turn the clock back to before he was sold it would for me still be Valegro but the contest would be a lot closer. thats obviously taking the training and lifestyle out of it as that would be a personal preference rather than a performance in the ring thing and yes if I had a choice that would be Valegro every time

 

[chocolategirl]

For me valegro just looks much 'looser' in his movement whilst totilas just looks like a mechanical horse. Even if you watch earlier footage of when he was with Edward, his action was for me, just too precise like he had been programmed if that makes sense? Probably not explained it very well, but watch footage of both simultaneously, and you should see what I mean. Totilas is undoubtedly a very pretty and striking horse, but when I watch Valegro I get goosebumps and I well up I swear! He just looks so fluid and natural.

 

[Fun Times]

I reckon I would have more chance of staying on Valegro for longer.

More seriously, Valegro every time for me. He is a much more natural looking horse. I have always been a bit creeped out by totilas' spidery front legs (which have never been matched by his hind action).

 

[Regandal]

I reckon I would have more chance of staying on Valegro for longer. /QUOTE]

This! Probably all of 30 seconds!

 

[crabbymare]

I have always been a bit creeped out by totilas' spidery front legs (which have never been matched by his hind action).

the front leg thing has always annoyed me but as a 5 year old for me he did move a lot better and normally. the latest picture doing the rounds from the warm up makes him look like he is doing spanish walk rather than trot

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Nat wood, you've made some interesting points here but do you have PROOF of this? Or are you just assuming this as Totalis's life and training? No one should make any type of accusations without knowing the facts.

I haven't read anything about Totilas' routine (ie how long he is stabled for each day) but I thought that it was well known that Gal uses hyperflexion in his training and Klaus Rath has discussed it as part of Totilas' current training regime.

 

[crabbymare]

I haven't read anything about Totilas' routine (ie how long he is stabled for each day) but I thought that it was well known that Gal uses hyperflexion in his training and Klaus Rath has discussed it as part of Totilas' current training regime.

He is as far as I know training in Holland with Sjef Janssen but I am not sure whats happening after Sjef had an accident a little while ago

 

[I love my Spanish horse]

Nat wood, you've made some interesting points here but do you have PROOF of this? Or are you just assuming this as Totalis's life and training? No one should make any type of accusations without knowing the facts.

For me, I hope that they are both sound and produce the amazing work they can so its a real competition. Not biased in who wins just love appreciating the power, suppleness, athleticism and harmony with rider ��

Umm I don't think I need proof on which to base an opinion of which many people share. It's common knowledge totilas is ridden in rollkur, if all the pictures and videos of him training weren't enough I think both gal and rath actually admit to using hyperflexion in their training methods. Again with the injury unless you've been living in a cave you'll know that the horse has been plagued by one problem after another since going to Matthias, and has often looked tense and unhappy in his work on the rare occasions he's made an appearance.
With regards to the horses management no I cant say I have concrete proof as such, I have seen blogs on how the horse is stabled 24/7 however avd having visited and worked at yards over there it's very common practice for such valuable competition horses to be treated like machines, even more so with a stallion.
I was as in awe of totilas as a lot of people when he first came on the circuit with gal, his talent is clearly up there with the best horses including Valegro. Unfortunately though I think the way he's been trained has done nothing to help the horse and now the only thing I see is a tension and flashy front end but with no engagement, suppleness or hind leg action.
As I said it's less about proof but more an opinion and one a lot of people agree with

 

[honetpot]

For me valegro just looks much 'looser' in his movement whilst totilas just looks like a mechanical horse. Even if you watch earlier footage of when he was with Edward, his action was for me, just too precise like he had been programmed if that makes sense? Probably not explained it very well, but watch footage of both simultaneously, and you should see what I mean. Totilas is undoubtedly a very pretty and striking horse, but when I watch Valegro I get goosebumps and I well up I swear! He just looks so fluid and natural.

I was just thinking this, looser, before I read this. Dressage is not just about performing the movement but about softenss and willingness, however each horse is trained Valegro shows this so the horse is expressing the movement. A delight.

 

[Pigeon]

I'll go against the grain here and say on type alone I prefer Totilas. Slightly lighter in build, tall, and he is hot and quirky which I find irresistible in a horse. (yes, I am dumb!)

In training and way of going, Valegro all the way!

 

[Pigeon]

Nat wood, you've made some interesting points here but do you have PROOF of this? Or are you just assuming this as Totalis's life and training? No one should make any type of accusations without knowing the facts.

For me, I hope that they are both sound and produce the amazing work they can so its a real competition. Not biased in who wins just love appreciating the power, suppleness, athleticism and harmony with rider ��

I thought it was fairly common knowledge that Toto was trained using hyperflexion?

I think this is from the warmup last weekend;

https://www.facebook.com/HDV12Book/...7084235130191/424357524402861/?type=1&theater

I will say that I don't think hyperflexion is the worst evil done unto horses. Lack of turnout would be the winner.

 

[MargotC]

Both horses have been known to make me well up in the past - for completely opposite reasons.

Valegro is a joy to watch.

I wonder how Totilas might have turned out in the hands of, say, Charlotte D. and Carl H.

 

[ihatework]

I think you only have to look at the long term consistency & soundness to see what an amazing dressage horse Valero is. His London Kur really did bring a lump to my throat and the way this combination alone has raised the profile of dressage within GB is phenomenal. They are a very happy partnership indeed but I don't buy in fully to 'light' at times he looks very strong!

Totilas is one of those enigmas for me. As much as I would like to dislike his way of going & training - I can acknowledge the inconsistency against FEI directive etc - I just think back to his performance with EG at Windsor. Despite all the above, there was something magical about him, I'm not sure what what it is but I will always be a slightly saddened fan of his.

 

[Farma]

Umm I don't think I need proof on which to base an opinion of which many people share. It's common knowledge totilas is ridden in rollkur, if all the pictures and videos of him training weren't enough I think both gal and rath actually admit to using hyperflexion in their training methods. Again with the injury unless you've been living in a cave you'll know that the horse has been plagued by one problem after another since going to Matthias, and has often looked tense and unhappy in his work on the rare occasions he's made an appearance.
With regards to the horses management no I cant say I have concrete proof as such, I have seen blogs on how the horse is stabled 24/7 however avd having visited and worked at yards over there it's very common practice for such valuable competition horses to be treated like machines, even more so with a stallion.
I was as in awe of totilas as a lot of people when he first came on the circuit with gal, his talent is clearly up there with the best horses including Valegro. Unfortunately though I think the way he's been trained has done nothing to help the horse and now the only thing I see is a tension and flashy front end but with no engagement, suppleness or hind leg action.
As I said it's less about proof but more an opinion and one a lot of people agree with

I have seen an interview with Edward Gal who stated that Totilas wasn't ever turned out when he had him as he would often injure himself, no idea if that's changed with Matthias Rath or not but I would bet not!

 

[dibbin]

I'm not ashamed to say it, Valegro makes me cry. Seeing them live at Olympia last year was just phenomenal.

 

[Doublethyme]

For me valegro just looks much 'looser' in his movement whilst totilas just looks like a mechanical horse. Even if you watch earlier footage of when he was with Edward, his action was for me, just too precise like he had been programmed if that makes sense? Probably not explained it very well, but watch footage of both simultaneously, and you should see what I mean. Totilas is undoubtedly a very pretty and striking horse, but when I watch Valegro I get goosebumps and I well up I swear! He just looks so fluid and natural.

^^ This sums it up nicely for me. Totilas is a beautiful animal but his soul never shown through for me.

 

[PorkChop]

Valegro for me too

That's not to say that I didn't love watching Totilas and Edward though.

 

[Barnacle]

I have never liked how Totilas moves... So this one is easy for me. Valegro hands down. There are other choices I'd find more difficult!

 

[rachk89]

Valegro. He has beaten every record set who else is it gonna be?

 

[Tiffany]

I think the relationship between horse and rider appears better with Charlotte & Valegro and his way of going has been more consistent therefore, my money is on Valegro.

 

[Fransurrey]

Another who has always disliked the mismatched front end of Totilas. As for personality, in the ring he's what I imagine a horse to be like after a "Dementor's kiss". Utterly soulless.

 

[MargotC]

Looking at videos both old and new, what really stands out to me is the stark contrast between Valegro's effortless, fluid way of moving around and the more forced, mechanical movements that have been drilled into Totilas. The latter does the routine but if you strip away the flashy action what are you really looking at? As to how much of that contrast is down to natural affinity and how much is down to the way they've both been produced and they way they are being ridden, who can say. Totilas has talent for sure but since we'll never get to see them both brought on side by side and by the same training team it's one of those unanswerable questions, I think. In any case watching Valegro has never once been uncomfortable. It just looks right even to a relatively untrained eye like mine. And to me seeing Valegro was what broke the spell Totilas had woven.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Valegro- however it would be interesting to see how totilas went if Charlotte was his rider.

 

[NZJenny]

Both horses have been known to make me well up in the past - for completely opposite reasons.

Valegro is a joy to watch.

I wonder how Totilas might have turned out in the hands of, say, Charlotte D. and Carl H.

This.