The lami episode I was dreading ...

[Red-1]

L94 helped mine too. I put him on it when he went sore.

He looked fabulous after 1 bottle, but a few weeks later needed a second. Been fine since.

I have found that Metaslim helps keep weight off. I also feed a second net of straw for a full tummy with few calories, and well soaked hay. He now can have a few hours out, muzzled.

The vet was insistent that he was skinny, and he now does not blood test as EMS, even though he defo was before.

It is a bit disconcerting, seeing ribs, but then, you can see mine too and they don't hurt!

 

[brighteyes]

As others have suggested - no nuts, get tested for EMS, use Prascend in a dollop of applesauce and give any of the three 2.5% chaffs and speedibeet - double-rinsed - to be sure of intake whilst you sort out hay. I'd get timothy in - even Marksway, which you could still soak for a short period. Rinse soaked hay well.

Sreams PPID exacerbated by EMS to me. is she on bute?


Good luck, at this point management in key and could make all the difference.

 

[PurBee]

Yes and no, bought in Heston that was the same as the ad-lib one in the field. So it was a new hay in terms of what she usually has in stable, but not newly cut or green. Pretty sure it was cut in the autumn. They’ve been on it in the field most of the winter too

However, I wasn’t feeding this bale for long before it started so possibly connected

so both heston’s are from the same cut/field if im understanding correctly? If so, and theyve been on it since winter, the hay doesnt sound like a trigger culprit.
But if you bought another heston from same supplier and dont know if it was same field/cut than the winter bales youve been using, it might be a causative factor.

Im not referring to sugar levels of hay causing sudden symptoms resembling lami/gaining weight. Im referring to herbicides and possible pre-harvest ‘dessication’ of hay fields with glyphosate - it helps the grass dry quicker - as a causative factor.
Glyphosate causes pancreatic changes and sugar metabolism issues, and many herbicides used now are ‘persistent’ endocrine/hormone-disrupting technology. They’re often used as they require only 1 pass for stubborn weeds like dock etc, the older types of herbicides would do a partial kill so many required 2 tractor sprayings. So the newer class of herbicides are called endocrine-disrupting as the chemical is designed specifically to interfere with the endocrine/growth/reproduction cells of the plant, killing it.

So far there’s been 1 study linking endocrine disruptors to ems conditions in equines. The research for equines is sparse and most studies refers to other test subjects aside from equines.

I never considered it before i got a batch of hay from a supplier - old meadows, low sugar grasses, mixture of grasses - ideal in terms of sugar. Literally within 24hrs of feeding it both horses were footy. even the younger gelding with massive soles and sturdy feet got footy. It was bizarre. The farmer who sold me the hay first said to me “we’ve got a clean farm here, spray for everything” - he meant no weeds in his hay, he sprays the whole place annually.

Mine experiencing symptoms like this prompted research for the past 18months into this subject. The equine world is awash with lami/ems and similar endocrine issues, and sugar is being ‘blamed’ for the whole lot. Of course feeding high sugar foods all the time causes issues, but we’ve got horses so bad in the equine world they cant be on a paddock at all!

I personally think we need to widen our focus and start to see the correlations between agri chemical changes/use and increasing swaths of equines suffering with weight/lami/ems symptoms while practically being on starvation paddocks and very lo calorie foods.

If the horses gut and pancreatic balance is altered by herbicide and glyphosate, that is why grass/unsoaked hay/any grain is a big no-no, as they cant process sugar. Sugar is being identified as causative to increasing symptoms, while the root cause is what’s causing endocrine disruption in the first place. Sugar doesnt cause endocrine disruption. Sugar metabolism is controlled by the pancreas and some minerals. Sugar doesnt cause the pancreas to go awry - its designed to deal with sugar. Something else causes the pancreas to stop being able to successfully break down carbs.
Don’t forget, we’re not talking about grains here, we know theyre higher sugar, we’re dealing with horses not being able to
Consume relatively low sugar hay Without it being soaked to death.

Did our previous generations of horse folk before 1990 have to soak all hay, avoid grains completely, muzzle 24/7, and ensure badly kept grass paddocks due to equine obesity/lami epidemic?

The elephant in the room no-one likes to talk about is what most forage is sprayed with. Many dont realise edocrine-disrupting new classes of chemicals are being used routinely now, especially these past 10yrs.
Dosage of spray is advised on the labels but that requires compliance by farmers in the field. for a particularly heavy infested field of weeds a farmer would be inclined to make a stronger batch.
Im a member on a popular uk farming forum, i read regularly the attitude towards sprays and their use.

If sugar was the cuprit mine wouldnt be able to graze the long grass fields theyre in, year in year out, while having no weight/feet issues. Yet a new batch of hay added to their regimen caused classic lami symptoms, and fat pads etc….switch to hay not sprayed and they recover.

Enquire how your hays are treated - what’s used for weed control….get supplier to tell you the actual product, and whether pre-harvest dessicating spray have also been used (indicating a glyphosate treatment - these will be very dry bales completely bleached throughout the bale with no green in it at all, hay also that was left laying on a field and got rained on and not regularly turned daily will also be bleached with no green so dont assume all bleached bales are dessicated with glyphosate, either way its badly made hay we shouldnt be feeding)

It took me 3 months to find out from a huge uk supplier of haylage what herbicides they use. Their agronomist skirted around the issue for months, telling me what they dont use….whereas all i asked was, what they DO use. It turned out to be a persistent endocrine disrupting spray, of course. So good luck finding out what‘s sprayed on crops, its like drawing blood from a stone.

We need to support organic hay merchants. Try yourself, switching to a hay you know for sure isnt treated with modern agri sprays.…note changes in your horses weight/feet/gut health.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

It’s pretty thick, rubber mats, layer of wood pellets then layer of shavings

View attachment 75384

Pads I’m looking into, farrier suggested foam gym mat type material?

We used styrofoam as it moulds to the foot with [Inappropriate content removed] tape, also bedmax was recommended as it is more cushion like

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I prefer https://www.nesanimalhealth.co.uk/simple-system---purabeet-pellets----sugar-beet---20kg-9306-p.asp to speedy beet for my lami horses, also no nuts while flare up

 

[ester]

oh I love the tape typo.
there are some good polystyrene videos.

 

[TwyfordM]

As others have suggested - no nuts, get tested for EMS, use Prascend in a dollop of applesauce and give any of the three 2.5% chaffs and speedibeet - double-rinsed - to be sure of intake whilst you sort out hay. I'd get timothy in - even Marksway, which you could still soak for a short period. Rinse soaked hay well.

Sreams PPID exacerbated by EMS to me. is she on bute?


Good luck, at this point management in key and could make all the difference.

Yes on bute, I’ve just picked some more up today and we’ve upped the dose from 1/2 a day to a full sachet.

Thanks, so frustrating when all her episodes before have been so straight forward. She seems to have gained fat pads in last few days while loosing top line and is going full blown Cushings “shape” almost overnight ??‍

 

[TwyfordM]

so both heston’s are from the same cut/field if im understanding correctly? If so, and theyve been on it since winter, the hay doesnt sound like a trigger culprit.
But if you bought another heston from same supplier and dont know if it was same field/cut than the winter bales youve been using, it might be a causative factor.

Im not referring to sugar levels of hay causing sudden symptoms resembling lami/gaining weight. Im referring to herbicides and possible pre-harvest ‘dessication’ of hay fields with glyphosate - it helps the grass dry quicker - as a causative factor.
Glyphosate causes pancreatic changes and sugar metabolism issues, and many herbicides used now are ‘persistent’ endocrine/hormone-disrupting technology. They’re often used as they require only 1 pass for stubborn weeds like dock etc, the older types of herbicides would do a partial kill so many required 2 tractor sprayings. So the newer class of herbicides are called endocrine-disrupting as the chemical is designed specifically to interfere with the endocrine/growth/reproduction cells of the plant, killing it.

So far there’s been 1 study linking endocrine disruptors to ems conditions in equines. The research for equines is sparse and most studies refers to other test subjects aside from equines.

I never considered it before i got a batch of hay from a supplier - old meadows, low sugar grasses, mixture of grasses - ideal in terms of sugar. Literally within 24hrs of feeding it both horses were footy. even the younger gelding with massive soles and sturdy feet got footy. It was bizarre. The farmer who sold me the hay first said to me “we’ve got a clean farm here, spray for everything” - he meant no weeds in his hay, he sprays the whole place annually.

Mine experiencing symptoms like this prompted research for the past 18months into this subject. The equine world is awash with lami/ems and similar endocrine issues, and sugar is being ‘blamed’ for the whole lot. Of course feeding high sugar foods all the time causes issues, but we’ve got horses so bad in the equine world they cant be on a paddock at all!

I personally think we need to widen our focus and start to see the correlations between agri chemical changes/use and increasing swaths of equines suffering with weight/lami/ems symptoms while practically being on starvation paddocks and very lo calorie foods.

If the horses gut and pancreatic balance is altered by herbicide and glyphosate, that is why grass/unsoaked hay/any grain is a big no-no, as they cant process sugar. Sugar is being identified as causative to increasing symptoms, while the root cause is what’s causing endocrine disruption in the first place. Sugar doesnt cause endocrine disruption. Sugar metabolism is controlled by the pancreas and some minerals. Sugar doesnt cause the pancreas to go awry - its designed to deal with sugar. Something else causes the pancreas to stop being able to successfully break down carbs.
Don’t forget, we’re not talking about grains here, we know theyre higher sugar, we’re dealing with horses not being able to
Consume relatively low sugar hay Without it being soaked to death.

Did our previous generations of horse folk before 1990 have to soak all hay, avoid grains completely, muzzle 24/7, and ensure badly kept grass paddocks due to equine obesity/lami epidemic?

The elephant in the room no-one likes to talk about is what most forage is sprayed with. Many dont realise edocrine-disrupting new classes of chemicals are being used routinely now, especially these past 10yrs.
Dosage of spray is advised on the labels but that requires compliance by farmers in the field. for a particularly heavy infested field of weeds a farmer would be inclined to make a stronger batch.
Im a member on a popular uk farming forum, i read regularly the attitude towards sprays and their use.

If sugar was the cuprit mine wouldnt be able to graze the long grass fields theyre in, year in year out, while having no weight/feet issues. Yet a new batch of hay added to their regimen caused classic lami symptoms, and fat pads etc….switch to hay not sprayed and they recover.

Enquire how your hays are treated - what’s used for weed control….get supplier to tell you the actual product, and whether pre-harvest dessicating spray have also been used (indicating a glyphosate treatment - these will be very dry bales completely bleached throughout the bale with no green in it at all, hay also that was left laying on a field and got rained on and not regularly turned daily will also be bleached with no green so dont assume all bleached bales are dessicated with glyphosate, either way its badly made hay we shouldnt be feeding)

It took me 3 months to find out from a huge uk supplier of haylage what herbicides they use. Their agronomist skirted around the issue for months, telling me what they dont use….whereas all i asked was, what they DO use. It turned out to be a persistent endocrine disrupting spray, of course. So good luck finding out what‘s sprayed on crops, its like drawing blood from a stone.

We need to support organic hay merchants. Try yourself, switching to a hay you know for sure isnt treated with modern agri sprays.…note changes in your horses weight/feet/gut health.

That’s really interesting, unfortunately as we are a large yard suppliers change regularly. I know this lot came in from up north, I grabbed one of the last of the old stock rather than the newly cut rounds because I figured older would be better. Hadn’t even considered the rest

 

[shortstuff99]

oh I love the tape typo.
there are some good polystyrene videos.

When the duck tables are turned......?

 

[holeymoley]

She certainly has the body shape of a pony wit EMS. I would support the frogs asap if you haven’t already. What type of hay are you feeding? Try and get hold of some stalky timothy stuff and soak. I personally wouldn’t use hi fi, I use Simple Systems. While mine was having his attack I used top spec, I can’t remember which one though it was basically fine chopped straw and I added a vitamin and mineral supplement to carry his bute. Trinity Consultants stuff is good too.

 

[NinjaPony]

Just wanted to say you are clearly trying to do all the right things. I have a Cushings lami prone Welsh A and it’s a nightmare.

For him, the key has been the prascend… he’s only on half a tablet and wasn’t particularly high but it’s made a huge difference to him. When he was first diagnosed with lami and after a couple of episodes, the vets warned he might never be able to go on grass again but since moving to a sheep farm field that doesn’t get rested or fertilised, he’s touch wood been fine with a muzzle on.

If you haven’t already, I’d be x-raying her feet and putting some aluminium heartbars in front. Mine has never ever needed shoes but now I keep fronts on because he just seems much more comfortable with the support even though his x-rays are fine.

Definitely try and talk to a specialist, it does look EMS/ out of control Cushings related.

Really sorry you are having to deal with this, I remember the box rest stress vividly and even now I check his feet for heat every day.

 

[Apizz2019]

Unfortunately, native ponies are prone to ems and looking at her neck and fat deposits, I'd be confident that she likely is ems.

We've just had our 11 year old dartmoor tested for Cushings and ems after a mild bout of lami. Clear on cushings but positive for ems.

He is also cresty, holds fat deposits classic to ems ponies.

You are absolutely right in treating cushings but you need to be analysing everything you feed and treating as EMS too, to be on the safe side.

Good luck, it's a truly terrible thing to deal with xx

 

[Red-1]

so both heston’s are from the same cut/field if im understanding correctly? If so, and theyve been on it since winter, the hay doesnt sound like a trigger culprit.
But if you bought another heston from same supplier and dont know if it was same field/cut than the winter bales youve been using, it might be a causative factor.

Im not referring to sugar levels of hay causing sudden symptoms resembling lami/gaining weight. Im referring to herbicides and possible pre-harvest ‘dessication’ of hay fields with glyphosate - it helps the grass dry quicker - as a causative factor.
Glyphosate causes pancreatic changes and sugar metabolism issues, and many herbicides used now are ‘persistent’ endocrine/hormone-disrupting technology. They’re often used as they require only 1 pass for stubborn weeds like dock etc, the older types of herbicides would do a partial kill so many required 2 tractor sprayings. So the newer class of herbicides are called endocrine-disrupting as the chemical is designed specifically to interfere with the endocrine/growth/reproduction cells of the plant, killing it.

So far there’s been 1 study linking endocrine disruptors to ems conditions in equines. The research for equines is sparse and most studies refers to other test subjects aside from equines.

I never considered it before i got a batch of hay from a supplier - old meadows, low sugar grasses, mixture of grasses - ideal in terms of sugar. Literally within 24hrs of feeding it both horses were footy. even the younger gelding with massive soles and sturdy feet got footy. It was bizarre. The farmer who sold me the hay first said to me “we’ve got a clean farm here, spray for everything” - he meant no weeds in his hay, he sprays the whole place annually.

Mine experiencing symptoms like this prompted research for the past 18months into this subject. The equine world is awash with lami/ems and similar endocrine issues, and sugar is being ‘blamed’ for the whole lot. Of course feeding high sugar foods all the time causes issues, but we’ve got horses so bad in the equine world they cant be on a paddock at all!

I personally think we need to widen our focus and start to see the correlations between agri chemical changes/use and increasing swaths of equines suffering with weight/lami/ems symptoms while practically being on starvation paddocks and very lo calorie foods.

If the horses gut and pancreatic balance is altered by herbicide and glyphosate, that is why grass/unsoaked hay/any grain is a big no-no, as they cant process sugar. Sugar is being identified as causative to increasing symptoms, while the root cause is what’s causing endocrine disruption in the first place. Sugar doesnt cause endocrine disruption. Sugar metabolism is controlled by the pancreas and some minerals. Sugar doesnt cause the pancreas to go awry - its designed to deal with sugar. Something else causes the pancreas to stop being able to successfully break down carbs.
Don’t forget, we’re not talking about grains here, we know theyre higher sugar, we’re dealing with horses not being able to
Consume relatively low sugar hay Without it being soaked to death.

Did our previous generations of horse folk before 1990 have to soak all hay, avoid grains completely, muzzle 24/7, and ensure badly kept grass paddocks due to equine obesity/lami epidemic?

The elephant in the room no-one likes to talk about is what most forage is sprayed with. Many dont realise edocrine-disrupting new classes of chemicals are being used routinely now, especially these past 10yrs.
Dosage of spray is advised on the labels but that requires compliance by farmers in the field. for a particularly heavy infested field of weeds a farmer would be inclined to make a stronger batch.
Im a member on a popular uk farming forum, i read regularly the attitude towards sprays and their use.

If sugar was the cuprit mine wouldnt be able to graze the long grass fields theyre in, year in year out, while having no weight/feet issues. Yet a new batch of hay added to their regimen caused classic lami symptoms, and fat pads etc….switch to hay not sprayed and they recover.

Enquire how your hays are treated - what’s used for weed control….get supplier to tell you the actual product, and whether pre-harvest dessicating spray have also been used (indicating a glyphosate treatment - these will be very dry bales completely bleached throughout the bale with no green in it at all, hay also that was left laying on a field and got rained on and not regularly turned daily will also be bleached with no green so dont assume all bleached bales are dessicated with glyphosate, either way its badly made hay we shouldnt be feeding)

It took me 3 months to find out from a huge uk supplier of haylage what herbicides they use. Their agronomist skirted around the issue for months, telling me what they dont use….whereas all i asked was, what they DO use. It turned out to be a persistent endocrine disrupting spray, of course. So good luck finding out what‘s sprayed on crops, its like drawing blood from a stone.

We need to support organic hay merchants. Try yourself, switching to a hay you know for sure isnt treated with modern agri sprays.…note changes in your horses weight/feet/gut health.

Wow, that is a very informative reply. I was keeping horses back in the 80s and you are correct, only fat ponies on really lush grass seemed to get laminitis. It seems like an epidemic now.

We stopped spraying on our own land long ago. Use local hay, same supplier each time, but not the sort of person where I could easily enquire what is sprayed onto it without being shown the door! Old school. I am soaking though.

In winter, now mine is no longer showing EMS, I had planned to move to a laminitis friendly haylage. Just because we are not on mains drainage and dealing with hay soak water has been a headache. I wonder what they are sprayed with? I may email them this reply and enquire, if that is OK?

It also helps explain how Trinity Consultants L94 may work, as Simon explained how it helped the organs detoxify. That would make sense as to how it improves the condition. I had been ready to feed P45 as well when he was at grass, but we are up to 4 hours a day now, and he is on the slimmer side still; us using no sprays may help explain why there has been no resurgence in symptoms.

Do you have a link to that study? I would like to send it to my (very supportive) vet.

 

[paddy555]

Wow, that is a very informative reply. I was keeping horses back in the 80s and you are correct, only fat ponies on really lush grass seemed to get laminitis. It seems like an epidemic now.

We stopped spraying on our own land long ago. Use local hay, same supplier each time, but not the sort of person where I could easily enquire what is sprayed onto it without being shown the door! Old school. I am soaking though.

In winter, now mine is no longer showing EMS, I had planned to move to a laminitis friendly haylage. Just because we are not on mains drainage and dealing with hay soak water has been a headache. I wonder what they are sprayed with? I may email them this reply and enquire, if that is OK?



Do you have a link to that study? I would like to send it to my (very supportive) vet.

I agree, it was the most amazing post Purbee. Thanks for sharing. That was a lot of typing
If you have any link I would love that as well please. What is the starting point for info to learn more about this?
Is there a list anywhere of old sprays and persistent endocrine disrupting ones or is it a case of looking at labels for glyphosate.

We also don't spray our grass and have one hay supplier. I wonder what the wording is to ask the "difficult" question.

 

[PurBee]

Wow, that is a very informative reply. I was keeping horses back in the 80s and you are correct, only fat ponies on really lush grass seemed to get laminitis. It seems like an epidemic now.

We stopped spraying on our own land long ago. Use local hay, same supplier each time, but not the sort of person where I could easily enquire what is sprayed onto it without being shown the door! Old school. I am soaking though.

In winter, now mine is no longer showing EMS, I had planned to move to a laminitis friendly haylage. Just because we are not on mains drainage and dealing with hay soak water has been a headache. I wonder what they are sprayed with? I may email them this reply and enquire, if that is OK?

It also helps explain how Trinity Consultants L94 may work, as Simon explained how it helped the organs detoxify. That would make sense as to how it improves the condition. I had been ready to feed P45 as well when he was at grass, but we are up to 4 hours a day now, and he is on the slimmer side still; us using no sprays may help explain why there has been no resurgence in symptoms.

Do you have a link to that study? I would like to send it to my (very supportive) vet.

When i soaked some hay i would sometimes get bubbles, when I agitated the net in the water after soaking time of 1 hour. That always made me curious, why bubbles? Saponin type products are in the mix of some sprays to help them adhere /stick to the plant. There are also saponins in plants themselves, generally meadow weeds/herbs plants other than grass though.
So sometimes that is a good indication the hay batch has received a spray.

Enquire with your suppliers what herbicide is used on the ley - and if the hay has a pre-harvest dessication spray.
Most large ‘branded’ forage products wont use a pre-harvest glyphosate ‘drying agent’ spray as its not usually done by agronomists who manage their whole farming enterprise.
However, plenty of farmers use it for other crops purely for aiding drying of the crop, like seed and grain crops and as glyphosate is “cheap as chips” (an opinion often read on farming forum about glyphosate) it’s seen as an aid to help dry-off a crop and could be used on hay fields, especially in difficult weather windows at hay making time.

Im researching currently what breaks down these classes of herbicides. Studies show that 95% is excreted via urine and stool. 5% remains in the body tissues/organs.
Manufacturers of these products state these chemicals pass through the animal no problem. But that’s not true, not ALL is excreted via studies.
By the way, these chemicals when ingested are still ’active’. That’s why i can take my rotten manure pile of even many years old, apply as a fertiliser dressing to my vegetable crops and all my plants die, due to the chemical still being a weed-killer and not breaking down via UV light, frost, time, or rain, or composting mocrobes - it’s still an ‘active’ chemical, whereas the older spray chemicals would break down under UV sun exposure and composting mocrobes. Not any more.

Year 2 the soil where the manure was mixed in, just a small amount - still killing plants, as the chemicals are still active and not fully broken down by soil microbes - which are the only thing on earth known to break them down but it takes 3 years to break down 1 fertiliser dressing. So if fields are sprayed annually, the soil microbes cannot possibly break down that load in just one year and therefore an accumulation effect is the result.

So if 1 litre weedkiller is advised per acre of hay - you get 2 tonnes (average) hay per acre - depending on management of horse - mine are half half grazing/hay so need 2 tonnes per horse per annum hay. So they are ingesting over the year 1000ml of active product - excreting 950ml and retaining 50ml.

The law for ingestion of these products is 7 parts per billion for humans and 50 ppb for animals.
The retained molecules are not inert. They are designed specifically to interfere with biological signalling.

So if at a molecular level, some of these sprays act on the endocrine system of a broad-leaf plant - anything but grass - and disturbs the endocrine signalling causing death of the plant - then we have to question bearing in mind that chemical still being ‘active’ when the animals ingest the hay sprayed with it ( this is undisputed fact not hypothesis) - then what does this ‘active’ chemical do in animals ingesting such crops?

I’m researching deeper what de-activates/neutralises these sprays. I have a query whether haylage fermentation process of lactobacillus aids in breaking down *some* of the agri sprays, therefore the animals are less prone to be acutely affected.
My horses do better on sprayed haylage than any sprayed Hay. Organic hay they are fine on - doesnt matter what sugar load it is. Organic lush field grazing theyre fine on.
BUT if im feeding them sprayed herbicide hay at night AND they are on lush fields in the day, their system cant handle the sugar due to endocrine disruption of the sprayed hay.
It caused me much head-scratching because over the years been wondering why they can handle sugar/carrots/mollassed foods etc/lush grass….then i get a different hay batch and bam! Laminitis symptoms. It wasnt making sense to me, being told sugar is the sole cause. Mine do okay on ‘relatively’ high sugar…of just mixed fresh grass….yet low sugar hay sprayed with herbicide…they get laminitis type symptoms?

The common denominator was whether the batch was sprayed or not. Whether the hay was organic or not.

We have to take into account there’s a huge amount of various sprays on the market now. The persistent, and endocrine disrupting ones are being used moreso these recent years because they do work brilliantly at killing weeds. Just 1 pass, job done! Of course farmers will embrace this new chemical technology - cleaner fields, more profit, no toxic plants, what’s not to love about these products from their point of view?
Yet many animals consuming these newer sprays are sent to slaughter for meat industry before long term chronic effects can be documented. Lambs/cows/goats - are all slaughtered relatively young before chronic ingestion symptoms are shown. Many cows do suffer with laminitis. Theres a uk cow farrier on youtube who’s great, he deals with feet issues we deal with with horses.
Out of all the animals consuming herbicide sprayed forage, horses are the only industry not killing them before chronic symptoms appear - so hence why we can suspect EMS type pathology by age 10 in a horse with fat pads, chronic on/off lami etc. If agri chemicals 5% are retained - over the years thats a lot of retention within the body from a bottle that has a ‘toxic if ingested’ label on it. The accumulative effects of ingestion have to be considered.

I’ll pm you red, the haylage companies ive been in touch with.

The statistics id like to see are the % incidence of lami/EMS/PPID in horses fed 100% organic forage and grazing compared to horses suffering with same pathologies being fed sprayed forage.
The truly sad fact is, the % of organic forage available for animals is lower than 5% of the forage market.

I’m not aware of confirmed ingredients that can ‘bind’ the retained chemicals within the body, but it doesnt surprise me that people are finding organ detoxing helpful with their horses.
Probiotics are also really useful to try to retain beneficial bacteria gut count , as gut microbes are affected by many agri products.



Studies on the pathologies becoming epidemic in the equine world are vast - aminly measuring and confirming the pathologies rather than investingating the CAUSE of the pathologies….so these type of studies are thin on the ground for equines, specifically. Although there’s vastly more for humans and the effects of agri-chemicals.

Here’s the link to the study mentioned previously:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0045653518322434

 

[Casey76]

When i soaked some hay i would sometimes get bubbles, when I agitated the net in the water after soaking time of 1 hour. That always made me curious, why bubbles? Saponin type products are in the mix of some sprays to help them adhere /stick to the plant. There are also saponins in plants themselves, generally meadow weeds/herbs plants other than grass though.
So sometimes that is a good indication the hay batch has received a spray.

Enquire with your suppliers what herbicide is used on the ley - and if the hay has a pre-harvest dessication spray.
Most large ‘branded’ forage products wont use a pre-harvest glyphosate ‘drying agent’ spray as its not usually done by agronomists who manage their whole farming enterprise.
However, plenty of farmers use it for other crops purely for aiding drying of the crop, like seed and grain crops and as glyphosate is “cheap as chips” (an opinion often read on farming forum about glyphosate) it’s seen as an aid to help dry-off a crop and could be used on hay fields, especially in difficult weather windows at hay making time.

Im researching currently what breaks down these classes of herbicides. Studies show that 95% is excreted via urine and stool. 5% remains in the body tissues/organs.
Manufacturers of these products state these chemicals pass through the animal no problem. But that’s not true, not ALL is excreted via studies.
By the way, these chemicals when ingested are still ’active’. That’s why i can take my rotten manure pile of even many years old, apply as a fertiliser dressing to my vegetable crops and all my plants die, due to the chemical still being a weed-killer and not breaking down via UV light, frost, time, or rain, or composting mocrobes - it’s still an ‘active’ chemical, whereas the older spray chemicals would break down under UV sun exposure and composting mocrobes. Not any more.

Year 2 the soil where the manure was mixed in, just a small amount - still killing plants, as the chemicals are still active and not fully broken down by soil microbes - which are the only thing on earth known to break them down but it takes 3 years to break down 1 fertiliser dressing. So if fields are sprayed annually, the soil microbes cannot possibly break down that load in just one year and therefore an accumulation effect is the result.

So if 1 litre weedkiller is advised per acre of hay - you get 2 tonnes (average) hay per acre - depending on management of horse - mine are half half grazing/hay so need 2 tonnes per horse per annum hay. So they are ingesting over the year 1000ml of active product - excreting 950ml and retaining 50ml.

The law for ingestion of these products is 7 parts per billion for humans and 50 ppb for animals.
The retained molecules are not inert. They are designed specifically to interfere with biological signalling.

So if at a molecular level, some of these sprays act on the endocrine system of a broad-leaf plant - anything but grass - and disturbs the endocrine signalling causing death of the plant - then we have to question bearing in mind that chemical still being ‘active’ when the animals ingest the hay sprayed with it ( this is undisputed fact not hypothesis) - then what does this ‘active’ chemical do in animals ingesting such crops?

I’m researching deeper what de-activates/neutralises these sprays. I have a query whether haylage fermentation process of lactobacillus aids in breaking down *some* of the agri sprays, therefore the animals are less prone to be acutely affected.
My horses do better on sprayed haylage than any sprayed Hay. Organic hay they are fine on - doesnt matter what sugar load it is. Organic lush field grazing theyre fine on.
BUT if im feeding them sprayed herbicide hay at night AND they are on lush fields in the day, their system cant handle the sugar due to endocrine disruption of the sprayed hay.
It caused me much head-scratching because over the years been wondering why they can handle sugar/carrots/mollassed foods etc/lush grass….then i get a different hay batch and bam! Laminitis symptoms. It wasnt making sense to me, being told sugar is the sole cause. Mine do okay on ‘relatively’ high sugar…of just mixed fresh grass….yet low sugar hay sprayed with herbicide…they get laminitis type symptoms?

The common denominator was whether the batch was sprayed or not. Whether the hay was organic or not.

We have to take into account there’s a huge amount of various sprays on the market now. The persistent, and endocrine disrupting ones are being used moreso these recent years because they do work brilliantly at killing weeds. Just 1 pass, job done! Of course farmers will embrace this new chemical technology - cleaner fields, more profit, no toxic plants, what’s not to love about these products from their point of view?
Yet many animals consuming these newer sprays are sent to slaughter for meat industry before long term chronic effects can be documented. Lambs/cows/goats - are all slaughtered relatively young before chronic ingestion symptoms are shown. Many cows do suffer with laminitis. Theres a uk cow farrier on youtube who’s great, he deals with feet issues we deal with with horses.
Out of all the animals consuming herbicide sprayed forage, horses are the only industry not killing them before chronic symptoms appear - so hence why we can suspect EMS type pathology by age 10 in a horse with fat pads, chronic on/off lami etc. If agri chemicals 5% are retained - over the years thats a lot of retention within the body from a bottle that has a ‘toxic if ingested’ label on it. The accumulative effects of ingestion have to be considered.

I’ll pm you red, the haylage companies ive been in touch with.

The statistics id like to see are the % incidence of lami/EMS/PPID in horses fed 100% organic forage and grazing compared to horses suffering with same pathologies being fed sprayed forage.
The truly sad fact is, the % of organic forage available for animals is lower than 5% of the forage market.

I’m not aware of confirmed ingredients that can ‘bind’ the retained chemicals within the body, but it doesnt surprise me that people are finding organ detoxing helpful with their horses.
Probiotics are also really useful to try to retain beneficial bacteria gut count , as gut microbes are affected by many agri products.



Studies on the pathologies becoming epidemic in the equine world are vast - aminly measuring and confirming the pathologies rather than investingating the CAUSE of the pathologies….so these type of studies are thin on the ground for equines, specifically. Although there’s vastly more for humans and the effects of agri-chemicals.

Here’s the link to the study mentioned previously:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0045653518322434

Can I just point out that ‘organic’ doesn’t mean chemical free, which many people think it is. There are many, many agri treatments which are certified as organic.

 

[Red-1]

When i soaked some hay i would sometimes get bubbles, when I agitated the net in the water after soaking time of 1 hour. That always made me curious, why bubbles? Saponin type products are in the mix of some sprays to help them adhere /stick to the plant. There are also saponins in plants themselves, generally meadow weeds/herbs plants other than grass though.
So sometimes that is a good indication the hay batch has received a spray.

Enquire with your suppliers what herbicide is used on the ley - and if the hay has a pre-harvest dessication spray.
Most large ‘branded’ forage products wont use a pre-harvest glyphosate ‘drying agent’ spray as its not usually done by agronomists who manage their whole farming enterprise.
However, plenty of farmers use it for other crops purely for aiding drying of the crop, like seed and grain crops and as glyphosate is “cheap as chips” (an opinion often read on farming forum about glyphosate) it’s seen as an aid to help dry-off a crop and could be used on hay fields, especially in difficult weather windows at hay making time.

Im researching currently what breaks down these classes of herbicides. Studies show that 95% is excreted via urine and stool. 5% remains in the body tissues/organs.
Manufacturers of these products state these chemicals pass through the animal no problem. But that’s not true, not ALL is excreted via studies.
By the way, these chemicals when ingested are still ’active’. That’s why i can take my rotten manure pile of even many years old, apply as a fertiliser dressing to my vegetable crops and all my plants die, due to the chemical still being a weed-killer and not breaking down via UV light, frost, time, or rain, or composting mocrobes - it’s still an ‘active’ chemical, whereas the older spray chemicals would break down under UV sun exposure and composting mocrobes. Not any more.

Year 2 the soil where the manure was mixed in, just a small amount - still killing plants, as the chemicals are still active and not fully broken down by soil microbes - which are the only thing on earth known to break them down but it takes 3 years to break down 1 fertiliser dressing. So if fields are sprayed annually, the soil microbes cannot possibly break down that load in just one year and therefore an accumulation effect is the result.

So if 1 litre weedkiller is advised per acre of hay - you get 2 tonnes (average) hay per acre - depending on management of horse - mine are half half grazing/hay so need 2 tonnes per horse per annum hay. So they are ingesting over the year 1000ml of active product - excreting 950ml and retaining 50ml.

The law for ingestion of these products is 7 parts per billion for humans and 50 ppb for animals.
The retained molecules are not inert. They are designed specifically to interfere with biological signalling.

So if at a molecular level, some of these sprays act on the endocrine system of a broad-leaf plant - anything but grass - and disturbs the endocrine signalling causing death of the plant - then we have to question bearing in mind that chemical still being ‘active’ when the animals ingest the hay sprayed with it ( this is undisputed fact not hypothesis) - then what does this ‘active’ chemical do in animals ingesting such crops?

I’m researching deeper what de-activates/neutralises these sprays. I have a query whether haylage fermentation process of lactobacillus aids in breaking down *some* of the agri sprays, therefore the animals are less prone to be acutely affected.
My horses do better on sprayed haylage than any sprayed Hay. Organic hay they are fine on - doesnt matter what sugar load it is. Organic lush field grazing theyre fine on.
BUT if im feeding them sprayed herbicide hay at night AND they are on lush fields in the day, their system cant handle the sugar due to endocrine disruption of the sprayed hay.
It caused me much head-scratching because over the years been wondering why they can handle sugar/carrots/mollassed foods etc/lush grass….then i get a different hay batch and bam! Laminitis symptoms. It wasnt making sense to me, being told sugar is the sole cause. Mine do okay on ‘relatively’ high sugar…of just mixed fresh grass….yet low sugar hay sprayed with herbicide…they get laminitis type symptoms?

The common denominator was whether the batch was sprayed or not. Whether the hay was organic or not.

We have to take into account there’s a huge amount of various sprays on the market now. The persistent, and endocrine disrupting ones are being used moreso these recent years because they do work brilliantly at killing weeds. Just 1 pass, job done! Of course farmers will embrace this new chemical technology - cleaner fields, more profit, no toxic plants, what’s not to love about these products from their point of view?
Yet many animals consuming these newer sprays are sent to slaughter for meat industry before long term chronic effects can be documented. Lambs/cows/goats - are all slaughtered relatively young before chronic ingestion symptoms are shown. Many cows do suffer with laminitis. Theres a uk cow farrier on youtube who’s great, he deals with feet issues we deal with with horses.
Out of all the animals consuming herbicide sprayed forage, horses are the only industry not killing them before chronic symptoms appear - so hence why we can suspect EMS type pathology by age 10 in a horse with fat pads, chronic on/off lami etc. If agri chemicals 5% are retained - over the years thats a lot of retention within the body from a bottle that has a ‘toxic if ingested’ label on it. The accumulative effects of ingestion have to be considered.

I’ll pm you red, the haylage companies ive been in touch with.

The statistics id like to see are the % incidence of lami/EMS/PPID in horses fed 100% organic forage and grazing compared to horses suffering with same pathologies being fed sprayed forage.
The truly sad fact is, the % of organic forage available for animals is lower than 5% of the forage market.

I’m not aware of confirmed ingredients that can ‘bind’ the retained chemicals within the body, but it doesnt surprise me that people are finding organ detoxing helpful with their horses.
Probiotics are also really useful to try to retain beneficial bacteria gut count , as gut microbes are affected by many agri products.



Studies on the pathologies becoming epidemic in the equine world are vast - aminly measuring and confirming the pathologies rather than investingating the CAUSE of the pathologies….so these type of studies are thin on the ground for equines, specifically. Although there’s vastly more for humans and the effects of agri-chemicals.

Here’s the link to the study mentioned previously:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0045653518322434

So we are poisoning the land now, more than ever. Thank you for this info. There was a small producer locally who did it organically, but he moved.

I just had a look at the study, LOL, it is a bottom science-y for me, but your explanation is very clear.

 

[PurBee]

Can I just point out that ‘organic’ doesn’t mean chemical free, which many people think it is. There are many, many agri treatments which are certified as organic.

Distinction needs to be made between sythetic lab-derived herbicide chemicals and non-synthetic organically sourced unaltered ’chemicals’ which happen to exhibit a herbicidal action.

The former is purposefully manufactured as it does not exist in that molecular form as a natural resource, and the organic approved ingredients are found abundantly as a natural resource.

The former doesn’t break down via natural modes of decomposition, the latter does.

The reason agri synthetics chemicals were produced in the first place was due to the already used natural herbicides not being efficient enough to do the job for the majority of mono-agriculture that takes place today. They would get rained off, degraded by the sun. Synthetics overcame all these farming problems, while inadvertently causing a plethora of other issues, like harming health. Quite the trade-off for perfect rows of wheat or a glossy field of nothing but grass.

Also, of course , those natural resources cannot be patented and become an multi-billion global industry.

https://goorganicuk.com/blog/articles/pesticide-use-in-organic-farming

 

[PurBee]

So we are poisoning the land now, more than ever. Thank you for this info. There was a small producer locally who did it organically, but he moved.

I just had a look at the study, LOL, it is a bottom science-y for me, but your explanation is very clear.

The majority of studies on this subject matter on mammals are either with rats or humans. Its very frustrating we’re lacking more studies with cows/equines/sheep.

 

[PurBee]

I agree, it was the most amazing post Purbee. Thanks for sharing. That was a lot of typing
If you have any link I would love that as well please. What is the starting point for info to learn more about this?
Is there a list anywhere of old sprays and persistent endocrine disrupting ones or is it a case of looking at labels for glyphosate.

We also don't spray our grass and have one hay supplier. I wonder what the wording is to ask the "difficult" question.

Due to the various formula’s of products available, to research all classes of chemicals used and their biological effects is quite overwhelming. If you want to go deeper into modern products used research ‘endocrine disrupting herbicides’, and ‘persistent herbicides’ as a start point.

There may well be some farmers continuing with the older class of herbicides due to better yield preference. It is noted by forage producers grass yield is affected by these newer herbicides so timing of spray is important otherwise they’ll get a much lower yield as these chemicals do affect the auxin growth regulation even in grass, so have to apply spray after leaf formation and partial seed head stem growth.
Timothy is well known to be knocked back in growth by modern forage herbicides so treatment for weeds is delayed until 3-4 leaf ears of timothy have grown, which is just prior to it shooting up its seed head.

I dont know the availability of these older versions today for farmers to use, as many get phased out over time.

To enquire with your forage producers i casually ask “ Whats the name of the herbicide you use on your hay fields?” - i dont ask what specific chemical as many dont know - they know product names not the details of the formula.
You can then google that product name to discover the chemical components and google that info further for chemical class type and info on biological effects.

It’s another angle to consider with these health epidemics we’re dealing with in the equine world. It wasnt like this 30yrs ago….sooo many owners battling horses getting fat on almost fresh air and hobbling about after brief grass exposure.

BTW - straw is often fed to fatties and straw definitely receives a dessication glyphosate spray, as its gets the wheat barley heads below 9% moisture, which is hard to achieve under normal northern hemisphere climate without unusual long hot dry summers. So definitely cut out feeding straw unless its organic, for a ems type horse.

 

[Hepsibah]

She doesn't look terribly overweight to me but she does have fat pads on her bottom and neck and the hollows above her eyes are puffy, all of which suggests PPID as a cause of the laminitis.
Laminitis takes a little while to manifest after the event which causes it which is the likely reason she got worse after being confined.
Your job now is to support the pedal bone to prevent sinking, (thick bedding does this but hoof boots and pads or even polystyrene taped to her soles will do it too) bring the PPID under control using a full dose of Pergolide and get her weight down to the point her fat pads go. It may mean she goes through the veil with the Pergolide side effects but it is vital to get the PPID under control as laminitis can kill. Feed is 1.5% of her bodyweight in dry matter. I work with hay being 90% dry matter so that is 1.5kg of hay per 100kg of horse plus 10% on top of that so for a 300kg horse it is 1.5kg x 3 = 4.5kg plus 10% of 4.5kg =450g. 4.5kg + 450g = weight as fed. I would divide this into three smaller nets soaked for an hour in as much water as you can manage and two scoops of topchop zero which is so low in energy as to be negligable to add a broad spectrum supplement and salt to to feed overnight.
I would also keep her on bute for it's anti inflammatory qualities until she stops being lame.
I had this with my mare a couple of years ago and the laminitis site which collects all the newest research into laminitis from around the world was a complete life saver. https://www.thelaminitissite.org/

 

[paddy555]

Due to the various formula’s of products available, to research all classes of chemicals used and their biological effects is quite overwhelming. If you want to go deeper into modern products used research ‘endocrine disrupting herbicides’, and ‘persistent herbicides’ as a start point.

There may well be some farmers continuing with the older class of herbicides due to better yield preference. It is noted by forage producers grass yield is affected by these newer herbicides so timing of spray is important otherwise they’ll get a much lower yield as these chemicals do affect the auxin growth regulation even in grass, so have to apply spray after leaf formation and partial seed head stem growth.
Timothy is well known to be knocked back in growth by modern forage herbicides so treatment for weeds is delayed until 3-4 leaf ears of timothy have grown, which is just prior to it shooting up its seed head.

I dont know the availability of these older versions today for farmers to use, as many get phased out over time.

To enquire with your forage producers i casually ask “ Whats the name of the herbicide you use on your hay fields?” - i dont ask what specific chemical as many dont know - they know product names not the details of the formula.
You can then google that product name to discover the chemical components and google that info further for chemical class type and info on biological effects.

It’s another angle to consider with these health epidemics we’re dealing with in the equine world. It wasnt like this 30yrs ago….sooo many owners battling horses getting fat on almost fresh air and hobbling about after brief grass exposure.

BTW - straw is often fed to fatties and straw definitely receives a dessication glyphosate spray, as its gets the wheat barley heads below 9% moisture, which is hard to achieve under normal northern hemisphere climate without unusual long hot dry summers. So definitely cut out feeding straw unless its organic, for a ems type horse.

thanks for that. It is certainly another angle. You are right. I got my first horse in 1973. It was totally different. The modern world is doing the horse no favours.

What about products such as grass nuts, alfalfa products.

 

[HollyWoozle]

I would also guess EMS - we have a mini with it and the neck and fat pads are extremely hard to shift, despite a very strict diet. Ours is fed well-soaked hay (generally 10 - 12 hours) which is weighed and served in small-hole nets, a lite balancer with a little bit of Spillers FibreLite (measured) and a small amount of linseed. This is working well for us so far but the fatty deposits are really hard to get rid of.

Personally I would ditch the pony nuts, no matter how small the portion, and definitely get some scales to be precise with the hay. We weighed our nets and then tried doing it by eye/feel and were quite surprised by how far out we were! That's not a criticism but just a point to hopefully help your lovely girl.

 

[holeymoley]

When i soaked some hay i would sometimes get bubbles, when I agitated the net in the water after soaking time of 1 hour. That always made me curious, why bubbles? Saponin type products are in the mix of some sprays to help them adhere /stick to the plant. There are also saponins in plants themselves, generally meadow weeds/herbs plants other than grass though.
So sometimes that is a good indication the hay batch has received a spray.

Enquire with your suppliers what herbicide is used on the ley - and if the hay has a pre-harvest dessication spray.
Most large ‘branded’ forage products wont use a pre-harvest glyphosate ‘drying agent’ spray as its not usually done by agronomists who manage their whole farming enterprise.
However, plenty of farmers use it for other crops purely for aiding drying of the crop, like seed and grain crops and as glyphosate is “cheap as chips” (an opinion often read on farming forum about glyphosate) it’s seen as an aid to help dry-off a crop and could be used on hay fields, especially in difficult weather windows at hay making time.

Im researching currently what breaks down these classes of herbicides. Studies show that 95% is excreted via urine and stool. 5% remains in the body tissues/organs.
Manufacturers of these products state these chemicals pass through the animal no problem. But that’s not true, not ALL is excreted via studies.
By the way, these chemicals when ingested are still ’active’. That’s why i can take my rotten manure pile of even many years old, apply as a fertiliser dressing to my vegetable crops and all my plants die, due to the chemical still being a weed-killer and not breaking down via UV light, frost, time, or rain, or composting mocrobes - it’s still an ‘active’ chemical, whereas the older spray chemicals would break down under UV sun exposure and composting mocrobes. Not any more.

Year 2 the soil where the manure was mixed in, just a small amount - still killing plants, as the chemicals are still active and not fully broken down by soil microbes - which are the only thing on earth known to break them down but it takes 3 years to break down 1 fertiliser dressing. So if fields are sprayed annually, the soil microbes cannot possibly break down that load in just one year and therefore an accumulation effect is the result.

So if 1 litre weedkiller is advised per acre of hay - you get 2 tonnes (average) hay per acre - depending on management of horse - mine are half half grazing/hay so need 2 tonnes per horse per annum hay. So they are ingesting over the year 1000ml of active product - excreting 950ml and retaining 50ml.

The law for ingestion of these products is 7 parts per billion for humans and 50 ppb for animals.
The retained molecules are not inert. They are designed specifically to interfere with biological signalling.

So if at a molecular level, some of these sprays act on the endocrine system of a broad-leaf plant - anything but grass - and disturbs the endocrine signalling causing death of the plant - then we have to question bearing in mind that chemical still being ‘active’ when the animals ingest the hay sprayed with it ( this is undisputed fact not hypothesis) - then what does this ‘active’ chemical do in animals ingesting such crops?

I’m researching deeper what de-activates/neutralises these sprays. I have a query whether haylage fermentation process of lactobacillus aids in breaking down *some* of the agri sprays, therefore the animals are less prone to be acutely affected.
My horses do better on sprayed haylage than any sprayed Hay. Organic hay they are fine on - doesnt matter what sugar load it is. Organic lush field grazing theyre fine on.
BUT if im feeding them sprayed herbicide hay at night AND they are on lush fields in the day, their system cant handle the sugar due to endocrine disruption of the sprayed hay.
It caused me much head-scratching because over the years been wondering why they can handle sugar/carrots/mollassed foods etc/lush grass….then i get a different hay batch and bam! Laminitis symptoms. It wasnt making sense to me, being told sugar is the sole cause. Mine do okay on ‘relatively’ high sugar…of just mixed fresh grass….yet low sugar hay sprayed with herbicide…they get laminitis type symptoms?

The common denominator was whether the batch was sprayed or not. Whether the hay was organic or not.

We have to take into account there’s a huge amount of various sprays on the market now. The persistent, and endocrine disrupting ones are being used moreso these recent years because they do work brilliantly at killing weeds. Just 1 pass, job done! Of course farmers will embrace this new chemical technology - cleaner fields, more profit, no toxic plants, what’s not to love about these products from their point of view?
Yet many animals consuming these newer sprays are sent to slaughter for meat industry before long term chronic effects can be documented. Lambs/cows/goats - are all slaughtered relatively young before chronic ingestion symptoms are shown. Many cows do suffer with laminitis. Theres a uk cow farrier on youtube who’s great, he deals with feet issues we deal with with horses.
Out of all the animals consuming herbicide sprayed forage, horses are the only industry not killing them before chronic symptoms appear - so hence why we can suspect EMS type pathology by age 10 in a horse with fat pads, chronic on/off lami etc. If agri chemicals 5% are retained - over the years thats a lot of retention within the body from a bottle that has a ‘toxic if ingested’ label on it. The accumulative effects of ingestion have to be considered.

I’ll pm you red, the haylage companies ive been in touch with.

The statistics id like to see are the % incidence of lami/EMS/PPID in horses fed 100% organic forage and grazing compared to horses suffering with same pathologies being fed sprayed forage.
The truly sad fact is, the % of organic forage available for animals is lower than 5% of the forage market.

I’m not aware of confirmed ingredients that can ‘bind’ the retained chemicals within the body, but it doesnt surprise me that people are finding organ detoxing helpful with their horses.
Probiotics are also really useful to try to retain beneficial bacteria gut count , as gut microbes are affected by many agri products.



Studies on the pathologies becoming epidemic in the equine world are vast - aminly measuring and confirming the pathologies rather than investingating the CAUSE of the pathologies….so these type of studies are thin on the ground for equines, specifically. Although there’s vastly more for humans and the effects of agri-chemicals.

Here’s the link to the study mentioned previously:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0045653518322434

This is fascinating. I’ve never been chemistry minded, however I have no doubt that fertilisers and sprays play a big factor in metabolic laminitics these days. I pleaded with my yo not to fertilise 1 field for mine. They all seem obsessed with nitrogen fertilisers and killing docks and thistles with whatever. My concern this year is that my hay supplier has fertilised a few hay fields… not sure how that will work for my hay.

 

[TwyfordM]

Also taken today from another angle. Considering she’s never had a backside/shoulders ... quite scary how fast these fatty deposits have come on and still seem to be continuing to grow ? what little top line she did have is gone and back is looking more swayed too.

Its all changed so quickly!

Had an email back from trinity consultants, seems like a good route to try alongside the meds so will be giving that a go. She’s had liver issues in the past so wouldn’t be surprised if toxins could potentially be an issue.

Chemical issue will be something worth looking into I think, she’s not the only one on the yard that’s gone down with laminitis since this latest batch of hay thinking about it. But with grass shooting up you’d just assume that.

May have to seek out my own supplier as no way for me to know where hays coming from as I buy through yard usually.

Vet is out this afternoon for X-rays and bloods for EMS so please all keep your fingers crossed that it’s not as bad as it looks ??

 

[PurBee]

View attachment 75402

Also taken today from another angle. Considering she’s never had a backside/shoulders ... quite scary how fast these fatty deposits have come on and still seem to be continuing to grow ? what little top line she did have is gone and back is looking more swayed too.

Its all changed so quickly!

Had an email back from trinity consultants, seems like a good route to try alongside the meds so will be giving that a go. She’s had liver issues in the past so wouldn’t be surprised if toxins could potentially be an issue.

Chemical issue will be something worth looking into I think, she’s not the only one on the yard that’s gone down with laminitis since this latest batch of hay thinking about it. But with grass shooting up you’d just assume that.

May have to seek out my own supplier as no way for me to know where hays coming from as I buy through yard usually.

Vet is out this afternoon for X-rays and bloods for EMS so please all keep your fingers crossed that it’s not as bad as it looks ??

Fingers firmly crossed for your girl Twyford - youre doing all you can right now.

With horses they get exposed to various ingredients sourced from various places, its a real minefield to truly pinpoint causation when issues arise.

Sorry to hijack your thread with the info i spoke about but thought it was an important angle to take on board , specifically with EMS/lami type equines, and to be honest it’s been a ‘lami post ive been dreading to write’ as i know it opens up more ‘what-if’s’ for us owners and more questions that take some work/understanding to try to answer.

If we can be aware it may be the type of herbicide applied causing issues, we can switch forage supplies to confirmed non-sprayed hay and see if improvement follows.
It’s an additional step to take in the ’lami protocol’ that’s not normally suggested, yet could make a huge difference.

 

[shortstuff99]

Fingers crossed! From that angle the coat looks quite cushingoid to me, might be that the does needs to be upped slightly.

 

[TwyfordM]

Fingers crossed! From that angle the coat looks quite cushingoid to me, might be that the does needs to be upped slightly.

She’s moulting like nobodies business now, but bloods for Cushings levels are next week.

Quick first inspection of X-rays shows a bit of sinking of the pedal bone but doesn’t look as horrific as I was expecting ?? Toes and heels need to come back a fair bit but plenty of sole which is good.

If EMS test comes back as positive, vet wants to try levothyroxine to get levels under control and fat pads gone then hopefully manage through diet

We are very stoned right now ..

 

[ester]

Bless, good news on the xrays

 

[meleeka]

I’m pleased it wasn’t awful news.