The myths about sugars, grass, fertiliser and laminitis

cobgoblin said:
For me the really interesting thing to come out of this thread is the relative difference in the sugar content of different grasses. I'm sure we all knew that ryegrass isn't the best for horses, but I'm astounded at how much more sugar it contains
Does anyone know whether laminitis is as common in countries where old natural pastures still remain in any quantity? I ask because I have an elderly friend who was born in Bavaria between the two world wars, she has always been surprised at the prevalence of laminitis in the uk. She says that when she was a child everyone's ponies used to eat as much grass as they liked and were enormously fat in the summer, in the winter they were fed hay and oats, but laminitis was unheard of unless a pony broke into the feed bin!
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But could that also be because the ponies actually worked hard enough, didn't wear rugs, lived out, had large enough fields, etc.? It could certainly be down to the types of grass/weeds/herbs they ate, but there will have been other factors too . . .

. . . very interesting topic.

P
 
Sebastian, your opening post whilst addressing these myths, is a highly irresponsible post.

Laminitis is not caused by grass. It is caused by an inability to metabolise its sugars. I think there has been huge advances in understanding this disease and it is no longer as simple as grass causes laminitis.
 
cobgoblin said:
For me the really interesting thing to come out of this thread is the relative difference in the sugar content of different grasses. I'm sure we all knew that ryegrass isn't the best for horses, but I'm astounded at how much more sugar it contains
Does anyone know whether laminitis is as common in countries where old natural pastures still remain in any quantity? I ask because I have an elderly friend who was born in Bavaria between the two world wars, she has always been surprised at the prevalence of laminitis in the uk. She says that when she was a child everyone's ponies used to eat as much grass as they liked and were enormously fat in the summer, in the winter they were fed hay and oats, but laminitis was unheard of unless a pony broke into the feed bin!
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In my experience is significantly less common in South Africa. You seldom hear about it and if you do, it's generally an incredibly obese pony or post-op/box rest.

We've got lush grass on the farm throughout winter and spring, then very dry grass over summer and autumn. My uncle has had his horses for over 40 years, keeping a minimum of 30 horses at a time. They live out all year around. He's never had a case of laminitis in his life.

Horses are Clydesdales, Arabs, Thoroughbreds, American Saddlers, welshies, boerperds and warmbloods.
 
cobgoblin said:
For me the really interesting thing to come out of this thread is the relative difference in the sugar content of different grasses. I'm sure we all knew that ryegrass isn't the best for horses, but I'm astounded at how much more sugar it contains
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I have Exmoor ponies. The last few years I've really struggled with them and they've been on lush, very fertile (for Scotland) land that's mainly used for arable farming. The ponies were not rugged or fed much and out 24/7 except in the summer when I had to do horrible strip grazing etc etc and restrict (one is retired, one was aged 2-4years old). It was a constant worry and hassle of moving fences, checking fences, keeping them in etc etc

We moved last year to South Lanarkshire. Poor, old grazing land-prone to wet. We found extra grazing by way of a field that a farmer can't be bothered to use for various reasons but mainly because you can't get machinery in it to fertilize it (grazing around me is fertilized several times a year and used for cattle and sheep and then further up the hill its sheep only in winter). So its not been fertilized in memory, it floods in winter and is a mix of all sorts including rushes and was thigh deep in old grass etc when I put them on it (nervously). They look grand this year-they have been muzzled some, the (now) 5yo is in light work and they have a 3yo chasing them but to have them out on 5/6 acres on varied terrain has been bliss for them and me. So I really think it does make a huge difference.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
In my experience is significantly less common in South Africa. You seldom hear about it and if you do, it's generally an incredibly obese pony or post-op/box rest.

We've got lush grass on the farm throughout winter and spring, then very dry grass over summer and autumn. My uncle has had his horses for over 40 years, keeping a minimum of 30 horses at a time. They live out all year around. He's never had a case of laminitis in his life.

Horses are Clydesdales, Arabs, Thoroughbreds, American Saddlers, welshies, boerperds and warmbloods.
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That's really interesting. I have no idea about the grasses that grow in South Africa but I presume you don't have the ryegrass monoculture that is so common in the UK.
It must be lovely not to have the threat of laminitis at the forefront of your mind all the time.
 
I also find the opening a post a little worrying. I've never really believed that the amount of sugar in grass has any influence over whether a horse gets laminitis or not *the first time*. Basically, my experience is that it's down to allowing an already fat animal to eat too much and it doesn't make much difference whether that is short grass/long grass/hay. Too much food will make a horse fat!

HOWEVER, my experience also seems to show that once a horse has had Laminitis in the past, exposure to very rich, sweet grazing results very rapidly in fat pads and a cresty neck. This may not be born out by others experiences but it does seem to show that once horses can be described as 'laminitic' that they are much more sensitive to changes in the sugar levels/richness of the grass than they were previously.

Personally I'll continue to trust the advice of the Laminitis Trust.
 
Interesting post - but my horses disagree with you, and I let them judge it for me.

One cannot tolerate fertilised grass whatsoever - think massive bloating and liquid poo (not cow pat, far worse than that). She can tolerate reasonable amounts of unfertilised non-rye foggage or mature long grass in early summer, but not short 'lush' grass from the same field at that time of year.
 
I tend to disagree with this info and let my ponies decide what they can/can't tolerate and fertilised grass is a big no no and long gone over grass is by far the best for my lot instead of short grass that bloats them out and gives them crests.
 
I think many of you are misunderstanding my first post. I'll update my first post to make sure it is clearer when I am at home , but I am not suggesting what works best for your horse, nor disagreeing with your anecdotal evidence. I am not an expert in laminitis, nor do I claim to be, but I do know a fair bit about grass.

Simply put, the intention is to inform about the levels of sugars in different grasses and in various conditions based on scientific facts.

How high levels of sugars, or low levels of sugars, affect your horse is a different discussion.

How your horse responds to the fact that there is more grass is a different discussion.

How your horse responds to the minerals in grass is another discussion.
 
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Interesting. I have a 7yo tb who started with mild laminitis 2 years ago and I had major trouble with him on one particular yard which the turn out fields had been arable and were planted with purely rye grass and he could tolerate no more than about 2 hours around June time. Now on a different yard and he managed a couple of months out 24/7 in the summer and no bother with lami. I had him tested for EMS and cushings and they were negative. I have also knocked him off the metformin that he was prescribed at rye grass yard and so far so good.
 
Darn. I've just realised that you cannot edit your post once somebody else posts after that. So let me clarify. I am in no way confirming or denying whether low levels of "sugar", high levels of "sugar", fertilised grass, non-fertilised grass, short grass, tall grass, medium grass, dormant grass, spring grass, winter grass, autumn grass or summer grass causes or prevents laminitis. I have simply posted some facts about grass physiology and different levels of "sugar" in different grass varieties in various conditions. How you use that information is up to you.
 
samlf said:
Interesting post - but my horses disagree with you, and I let them judge it for me.

One cannot tolerate fertilised grass whatsoever - think massive bloating and liquid poo (not cow pat, far worse than that). She can tolerate reasonable amounts of unfertilised non-rye foggage or mature long grass in early summer, but not short 'lush' grass from the same field at that time of year.
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What was the rate that the fertiliser was spread at and what fertiliser is it (what levels of NPK) ? What time of the year was the grass fertilised?
 
Laminitis was not as common in NZ 40 years ago, but now pastures are sown to maximise production for dairy cows. Dairy has exploded in New Zealand in the last 20 years, and the pastures traditionally sown for sheep which are quite horse friendly, are now rare.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Good horse management is an art rather than a science.
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well said.
I too am really confused, for 30 yrs thinking it is protein in grass that causis laminitis. Moving to my new house and having to sow new grasfields ....still confused !

but..having a new field i've had to cut the grass several times to make it fit for horses. The cow-farmer that has cut it 4x now apparantly does take samples of the grass to cut before he cuts it. Even cows are (positively) affected by Sugar. I was really surprised, thought only us horse-owners worried about this.
I've asked the same question to (horse)vets here and never got a straight answer.
But having owned horses for 30+years, and (knock on wood) never had a case, I will continue as I was trying to keep weight down-which is not easy!
 
Sebastian said:
I am not denying anything that you said, however, my points is first and foremost about sugar levels in grasses. Do you not find the fact that this little morsel, "Short grass is stressed, and trying to grow - therefore the sugar levels are far higher than long stalky grass.”, is thrown around as the gospel and fact on the forum frightening? I do, because no matter how much opinions change with new research, how plants grow will not change.
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Doesn't the last paragraph under stages In Your original post basically say this though?? Confused.

The bit starting , however rapidly growing grass In over grazed pastures contains higher levels of NSC per acre.....

This is surely what is meant by short stressed grass rapidly growing in spring, so it agrees with that which is often banded about on forums ...
 
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PollyP99 said:
Doesn't the last paragraph under stages In Your original post basically say this though?? Confused.

The bit starting , however rapidly growing grass In over grazed pastures contains higher levels of NSC per acre.....

This is surely what is meant by short stressed grass rapidly growing in spring, so it agrees with that which is often banded about on forums ...
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Have you read the entire article to get the context?
 
Sebastian said:
What was the rate that the fertiliser was spread at and what fertiliser is it (what levels of NPK) ? What time of the year was the grass fertilised?
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Sorry but I've no idea. Even if over winter if the grass has been fertilised she is slightly squishier than she should be.
 
Sebastian said:
Have you read the entire article to get the context?
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I read the whole article, and I still felt that it contradicted itself. Admittedly, I am already smarting about you repeatedly quoting a comment I made a few days ago, and thus making me out to be a complete idiot, but even when I went back and re-read it in a better mood, i still read it as it was written.
 
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Auslander said:
I read the whole article, and I still felt that it contradicted itself. Admittedly, I am already smarting about you repeatedly quoting a comment I made a few days ago, and thus making me out to be a complete idiot, but even when I went back and re-read it in a better mood, i still read it as it was written.
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I am sorry that I picked your particular comment. I've seen the same thing said before, but did not feel like looking for others when I wrote the OP, or rephrasing it. It was just me being lazy and not intentionally trying to pick on you - I apologise.

“Stressed” grass cannot be growing rapidly. It is either stressed, or growing rapidly. As an example, that bit is saying that if you have a field that had no leafy grass left at the end of winter (overgrazed) and then grass starts to grow, then there is an overall increase in NSC (or sugars to keep it simple) available to a horse.

However, rapidly growing grass will always have less sugar than long and stressed grass. If you look at any of the graphs, you’ll see what is going on. When the grass is cut and nitrogen is applied (green vertical lines)
, the short grass grows rapidly and NSC% falls (point 3). This same pattern repeats again in August after the grass is cut. Then, as the temperature drops and growth slows down in October and November the grass accumulates NSC. For rye grass, this long grass will have the highest NSC% in our cooler climate.
 
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I think possibly the biggest problem with soft, rapidly growing and fertilized grass is the ease with which it can be eaten and digested. Horses can eat enormous amounts of the stuff in a very short period of time. It takes more time to eat a comparable amount of very short grass, and the woody stuff has to be digested more slowly.
 
I totally agree with this - it is not good for any equine to be fat as it does not just put them at risk of laminitis but it is bad for their legs, hearts, lungs etc. Being overweight is as much of a health risk for horses as it is for people.

I think there is some thinking that laminitis is related to sugar intake and a bit like diabetes in that being overweight for a long time puts you at risk of getting diabetes, but that there will also be some people who are not overweight but will also get diabetes too for different reasons. So it is best to let yourself get very fat knowing that some people who are very overweight won't get diabetes or heart conditions or is better to try and eat healthy and exercise and stay slim. Yes it is more effort to eat a healthy diet and keep fit both for horses and people but in the long term it is best for both of us.

If grass is not the main problem then why is laminitis not so much of an issue in horses that are kept mainly stabled or is that a myth too?
TGM said:
I'm not sure I can go with the "let them get fat and if they get laminitis, knock it on the head" approach! But perhaps I have a different outlook as husband is a farrier and I've spoken to so many heartbroken owners who wished they had done things differently before their animals succumbed to laminitis. One of the most common comments is "but X has been always been fat but never had laminitis before so I thought he'd be OK". Unfortunately, being overweight is really a big health risk for equines, and the longer they are overweight, the greater the chance of them developing metabolic problems. It is now known that fat cells can produce a wide range of hormones - if the animal's fat deposits are larger than normal then this can upset the hormone balance and result in the animal becoming insulin resistant, which in turn makes the animal very susceptible to laminitis. So actually being fat long term can trigger the metabolic conditions that can cause laminitis when the animal ingests too many non-structural carbohydrates (ie sugar and starch).

There are different ways to manage lami prone animals and they don't all have to include muzzling and soaking hay - you have to make the best choice for the individual concerned. I have a pony who easily puts on weight, so she gets a separate strip of grazing where she has to wander around a lot to eat. And yes, sometimes I do have to ride her more than I always want to because I want to keep her fit and sometimes it is hard work to keep horses healthy and sound - personally I want to avoid a situation where I have to have my pony put down because I can't be bothered to put the work in!


I posted this quote from a vet site in a previous thread on the subject, unfortunately the original article I linked to has now gone, but I think the quote explains what the theory quite well:

"Obesity, as a direct result of excessive calorie intake, is the primary cause of insulin resistance in horses (as with people). It is now known that fat cells can produce a wide range of hormones and inflammatory mediators. These hormones down-regulate the sensitivity of tissues to insulin, which is a normal body function. However, if they are produced by larger than normal deposits of fat, their down-regulatory action is too much for the body to cope with and insulin resistance occurs. The excessive production of inflammatory mediators by the fat tissue also leads to a constant state of low grade inflammation. "
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mystiandsunny said:
I think possibly the biggest problem with soft, rapidly growing and fertilized grass is the ease with which it can be eaten and digested. Horses can eat enormous amounts of the stuff in a very short period of time. It takes more time to eat a comparable amount of very short grass, and the woody stuff has to be digested more slowly.
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Now that is actually a really good point that should be considered. Horses do prefer soft, fresh and leafy grass to stalky grasses. Some "food" for thought here.
 
Everything about this post assumes that sugars and laminitis are linked directly. Unfortunately research would seem to indicate otherwise.
 
Sebastian said:
Now that is actually a really good point that should be considered. Horses do prefer soft, fresh and leafy grass to stalky grasses. Some "food" for thought here.
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Not necessarily - ever grazed a horse in hand and watched him/her actively "forage" for different types of grasses? I hand graze my boy often after a bath and he has always been rather picky about the grasses he eats and, even when there is soft/fresh/leafy grass on offer will seek out the stalky stuff too - and some weeds/herby types. I can only assume he does that in his field as well - and I know he's been brambling lately because he has scratches on his nose ;).

P
 
Laminitis is an unlucky combination of lots of different factors! Grass/hay/feed/weight/exercise and underlying medical issues all play a part imo

My mare had it once as a youngster while living out on marshy fields, then another bout while on short grass/in at night on soaked hay and overweight due to having some time off.
She got diagnosed with Cushings last month so also a possible factor

She's been laminitis free for a good few years now. I judge everything by the day, she might go out in a muzzle she might not. She's in a fairly small field with a few other horses although its turned around a few times a year so times of a flush of new growth and times of "short stressed grass"

She isn't put into a laminitic shaped box, just doesn't work. She's actually having haylage at the moment as the prascend has put her off hay. Everyone i tell that to tells me that she's bound to get laminitis... But the alternative is let her starve which will cause me more problems in the long run.

So she's a good weight, laminitis free on short stressed grass while eating me out of house and home and chomping her way through a load of haylage and getting no exercise at the mo. But its working for us!

There's no right or wrong Imo, just what works for your horse. So long as you can see the early warning signs you'll work it out
 
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