The myths about sugars, grass, fertiliser and laminitis

Very interesting re the laminitis/short grass/long grass... My lad has PPID, diagnosed when he came down with laminitis last year. Short grass paddock, soaked hay and meds plus low sugar/starch feed sorted him out...He escaped one night onto longer lush grass, came in with pulses and hot feet plus footy... I disagree that laminitics can go onto longer grass. This grass hasnt been fertilised for years and is full of weeds too...The sugar levels are different in different parts of the country and the world ( NZ/Aus/France) due to the type of soil grown in surely? Despite research, i certainly wont be putting my horse onto 'lush longer' grass...though what i call rough grass would be the safer option, not fertilised or previously dairy grass.....It is very tricky and each owner has to find what works for their horse best.
 
PolarSkye said:
Not necessarily - ever grazed a horse in hand and watched him/her actively "forage" for different types of grasses? I hand graze my boy often after a bath and he has always been rather picky about the grasses he eats and, even when there is soft/fresh/leafy grass on offer will seek out the stalky stuff too - and some weeds/herby types. I can only assume he does that in his field as well - and I know he's been brambling lately because he has scratches on his nose ;).

P
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Hmm good point. I should not have generalised, but ours certainly do prefer the soft and fresh new growth. The Arab completely scoffs his nose at stalky grasses and huffs and puffs.
 
Mike007 said:
Everything about this post assumes that sugars and laminitis are linked directly. Unfortunately research would seem to indicate otherwise.
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You’re right, the article does make that link, but that is not really my point.

The line of thought that is posted here and all over the place goes like this

lush, fast growing spring grass = high levels of sugars = laminitis.

I am not actually postulating anything about the right side. I am wishing to clarify the left side and I cited the article purely because it is easy reading and has pretty diagrams.

Here is another article that confirms the left side and casts doubts on the right, but I would love to read the research papers that you've mentioned

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Micky said:
Very interesting re the laminitis/short grass/long grass... My lad has PPID, diagnosed when he came down with laminitis last year. Short grass paddock, soaked hay and meds plus low sugar/starch feed sorted him out...He escaped one night onto longer lush grass, came in with pulses and hot feet plus footy... I disagree that laminitics can go onto longer grass. This grass hasnt been fertilised for years and is full of weeds too...The sugar levels are different in different parts of the country and the world ( NZ/Aus/France) due to the type of soil grown in surely? Despite research, i certainly wont be putting my horse onto 'lush longer' grass...though what i call rough grass would be the safer option, not fertilised or previously dairy grass.....It is very tricky and each owner has to find what works for their horse best.
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Not just due to the type of soil, but also due to the climate. For example, the same varieties of rye grass grown in NZ has much lower levels of NSC than in the UK.
 
Micky said:
Despite research, i certainly wont be putting my horse onto 'lush longer' grass...though what i call rough grass would be the safer option, not fertilised or previously dairy grass.....
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I don't think anyone has said that lush longer grass is a good idea! Where I said longer grass, I meant foggage - I've got a foggage area in my field where the grass is very long, very stalky, and very dry. Practically hay. Mine have all been on it for a few weeks now, and they've all noticeably lost weight.
 
Auslander said:
I don't think anyone has said that lush longer grass is a good idea! Where I said longer grass, I meant foggage - I've got a foggage area in my field where the grass is very long, very stalky, and very dry. Practically hay. Mine have all been on it for a few weeks now, and they've all noticeably lost weight.
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Ditto . . . this is what Kal is on - long, stalky, already seeding grass, with an under layer of soft green with multiple weeds and herbs . . . he has lost weight, despite being more settled in the field (so not pacing and actually eating/scoffing) and doing the bare minimum of work. It is very interesting to watch him browse . . . picking out what he wants and leaving what he doesn't.

P
 
I'm not sure the paper actually contradicts any of the so-called myths about managing a laminitic horse. It presents a lot of facts but not necessarily in relation to horse management.
For example, fertilising grass causes it to grow and have a lower concentration of sugar - I'm sure that's true but as you cannot put a horse on recently fertilised grass,so the grass will be longer and easier to scoff, so the horse will eat a bigger volume and therefore consume more sugar. In addition fertilised grass will have a higher protein content, if this protein is not required for tissue repair or growth then it will also be converted to glucose in the body, so more calories on top.

The paper doesn't define short grass (or I couldn't find it). How short is short grass?
If it's 3" or 4" it would be easy for a horse to consume a lot, if short grass is 1" long it would be hard work and far fewer calories would be consumed even if the sugar content was high.
 
My boy could not tolerate grass full stop!

So took him off it completely! 6 years on I have a happy pony still EMS/PPID and controlled with regular bloods and meds but NO way would I introduce grass ever again to him. He is happy running about a woodchip pen with ad lib rye haylage.

I think there are ALOT more environmental issues that cause it than we are led to believe or even understand.
 
I was just wondering if anyone had any photo of different types of grasses.

I know what rye grass and timothy look like but there are some other grasses in our rested fields which have seed heads on them which are not rye grass or timothy and I was wondering what they were and how sugary they are.
 
I haven't read the whole of this so I'm sorry if it's been covered, but I'm puzzled.

Fertilized and short cropped/topped grass is much greener than non fertilized and longer grass. I though that green was chlorophyll. I thought chlorophyll was what the plant uses to make sugar out of sunlight. And I thought what grass did was make sugar while the sun shines and then use that sugar overnight to change it into other stuff so the plant grows.

So why would it not be true that plants more full of chlorophyll - the fertilized and topped stuff - have much more sugar in them before sunset on a sunny day than the ones that aren't?
 
I believe the fertilize question means applying an appropriate fertilizer according to soil analysis not just any old one. Every situation and horse is individual so as said above, you have to learn to look for early warning signs and take action. I still wish more yards would provide grass free turnout areas or other measures to help.

Some might find this perspective interesting, it concentrates on experiences with barefoot horses and effect on their hooves. http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.ie/2014/10/troubleshooting-for-barefoot-horse.html
 
cobgoblin said:
I'm not sure the paper actually contradicts any of the so-called myths about managing a laminitic horse. It presents a lot of facts but not necessarily in relation to horse management.
For example, fertilising grass causes it to grow and have a lower concentration of sugar - I'm sure that's true but as you cannot put a horse on recently fertilised grass,so the grass will be longer and easier to scoff, so the horse will eat a bigger volume and therefore consume more sugar. In addition fertilised grass will have a higher protein content, if this protein is not required for tissue repair or growth then it will also be converted to glucose in the body, so more calories on top.

The paper doesn't define short grass (or I couldn't find it). How short is short grass?
If it's 3" or 4" it would be easy for a horse to consume a lot, if short grass is 1" long it would be hard work and far fewer calories would be consumed even if the sugar content was high.
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I'm in the above camp as far as managing 'my own' horse is concerned! Grazed on short grass in the summer months with a pal and out overnight...then moved back into the small herd of 6, onto the winter field full of old meadow grass type foggage and unfertilised pasture with big undulating hills and plenty of shelter. Works a treat as far as management for my EMS lad (who is also barefoot) is concerned.
 
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So agree with you Sebastian, I keep my potential laminitis fat Clydesdae on a paddock so short that it's as smooth as a billiard table. She has to move around all day to get enough food to maintain her body condition.

This is the way I have managed all laminitis prone ponies over 40+ years. Works every time.
 
Tnavas said:
So agree with you Sebastian, I keep my potential laminitis fat Clydesdae on a paddock so short that it's as smooth as a billiard table. She has to move around all day to get enough food to maintain her body condition.

This is the way I have managed all laminitis prone ponies over 40+ years. Works every time.
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This is the way I've managed my EMS boy too and works for us!
 
I live in Spain and am privileged to have two donkeys in my family. The female donkey had a recent bout of laminitis and a nasty abscess. She recovered quickly and is now sound and happy again. She was very overweight and going for slaughter because she was always on and off lame before i rescued her.
I keep her in a large dust/rock paddock with a permanently open large stable which she shares with my gelding donkey.
I have another fenced paddock leading from this on which rough grass and weeds grow. There is no "good" grazing here as we live half way up a mountain in the Sierra Nevadas.
Water is limited during the summer months and so I guess my foliage and grazing is always "stressed".
I feed her lots of barley straw and very limited "faraje" which is the coarse hay available here. I allow her 1kg. a day of this soaked for 30 mins and then rinsed off. This is split into two feeds in small hole hay nets and the straw into three feeds in small hole nets. In the winter she also has a double handful of straw and faraje chaff with Pavo "Care 4 Life". I cut my own chaff as I brought an old manual chaff cutter with me from England so that I can tailor the content of hay/straw to suit. My gelding is fit and healthy on the same diet but he is smaller than her so I guess the reducing diet works for both. i feed roughly 1.5% of bodyweight and never, ever, any grain.
My problem is that I feel that they psychologically need to browse and I usually let them through to the other paddock in the morning for a few hours but since her recent bout (the first in 3 yrs since I've owned her) I am frightened to do this as I am worried whether there is too much sugar in my rough grazing. I'm as stressed as the grass!
I have a brilliant vet and a farrier who has transformed her front feet (one club foot and one wry foot, both overgrown and previously trimmed with a circular saw!)
but I am worried about her grazing because in the Spring they usually go up to the top of the mountain to my sons land and graze his Olive terraces which he has post and railed. They have no extra feed when they are turned out there for approx 6 weeks.
Any advice or help would be great but please be gentle with me as I used to have an Arabian for twenty odd years in England but appreciate that things have moved on since then.
 
sorry to here about the latest bout, one thing which is used here to allow a laminitic prone horse/pony out more in a paddock is a muzzle.
http://www.tackandturnout.co.uk/Dinky-Classic-Grazing-Muzzle

it will allow her out time and some grazing, the taller bits can fit through the whole, i am hoping someone on the forum has used one on a donkey and can suggest a better size to fit. but if you look on the internet quite a few people use them on donkeys, just have to fit to the face.
 
I have no personal experience of keeping donkeys but do know someone who has applied to the Donkey Sanctuary to foster from them. They say that their donkeys should be fed solely on straw but that might be because most of the UK grass is 'lusher' than that available in Spain.
 
Donkeyslave you could do worse than discuss your animals with the people at The Laminitis Site - they are very experienced, knowledgeable and helpful. One of the things they might tell you is pay particular attention to how their feet are trimmed.
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/

Pete Ramey in his recent clinic advised people to trim shorter, to avoid peripheral loading which stresses the laminae. He is another source of information for you. My own horse has self trimmed really short on the hard ground here in the UK this summer and his soles have never been stronger, so they support the column of bone and don't leave it all to the laminae
http://www.hoofrehab.com/ (Pete Ramey's website)
 
Thanks so much for your advice. I will certainly check out the Laminitis Site as I am sure they will be able to help. My farrier is English and registered (I'm so lucky as most neighbours trim their own but I won't let them near my donks!) He is also open to new ideas. The short trimming sounds interesting and as the farrier is due in a couple of weeks I'll email him these links. Thanks everyone for your kind input as it can be difficult being surrounded by lovely Spanish neighbours who only really value their horses and think I'm bonkers keeping donkeys as they are viewed by many as outdated agricultural machines here.
I will walk them more with my dogs now that it's getting cooler in the evenings as I do take on board that they do need exercise for mind and body and my neighbours love to see them. I have also contacted El Refugio del Burrito which is the Spanish branch of the Donkey Sanctuary and I am going to visit them in a few weeks.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
I do think some people make horse keeping a lot more difficult than it needs to be. I've no problem with them doing that, as long as their horse is basically ok with whatever routine and management system they use.

My viewpoint is: If people want to worry unduly about laminitis, let them. But I dont. Two of my horses are "at risk" you might say. One which had laminitis with a previous owner and one which a few years ago developed a cresty neck that never goes away even when lean, so IMO a possible metabolic problem. The laminitis case was due purely to suddenly over feeding and lack of work. The cresty neck developed on a horse which had always been fairly slim.

Due to a yard move these two, along with my others, are on decent grazing. Not rye grass, a mix of grass and weeds but a decent amount. It doesn't remotely resemble a starvation paddock. Every summer they get fat. Every winter they slim down. They are worked to a level that suits me, not because I feel I *have* to ride due to their weight. Winter is hard enough work, I'm not interested in stabling in summer too. I detest muzzles. I have no problem if others want to use them but I won't. IME the horse is miserable and the muzzles rub or come off. Soaked hay (more than about half hour) absolutely stinks and the water it comes out of looks disgusting. No, I won't feed that to my horses. Apart from anything else, I have better things to do than lug heavy dripping hay nets around. Anything with dust problems has haylage.

Guess what? My horse keeping routine is easily manageable by me, doesn't give me a headache or create unnecessary work and none of my horses has ever died from it. None has ever had laminitis with me. They are all happy and living a fairly natural life. IMO life is too short for all the worrying and faffing that goes on with a lot of horse owners.

If one of mine ever develops laminitis for no apparent reason (getting into the feed bin, illness, stress etc), I will consider it a symptom of serious metabolic problems and PTS in the animals best interests. Rather than months of painful laminitis recovery followed by a life of muzzles, manky soaked hay and restricted grazing for the poor horse, with riding suddenly becoming a chore that *must* be done.
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What a refreshing post. My thoughts exactly....and letting them slim down in winter is something many owners don't/won't do, and I think this is the key to success as it's how the equine metabolic system has evolved and it's doing as nature intended.
 
I know nitrogen fertiliser can be disastrous for horses prone to laminitis. The hot drought conditions this summer were damaging too.

A family member has one with chronic laminitis. She has EMS. Keeping her on a sand arena with hay has worked out best for her for the last month.

I disagree with the idea that laminitics should be euthanised. Proper foot care and weight management are paramount.The horse I referred to is not in pain, she's actually marching around the place looking perky.

Of course one has to be willing to manage the horse carefully. Careless owners who won't follow vet advise shouldn't let a horse suffer.

Also the types who won't commit to keeping the horses weight down because they think they are being cruel shouldn't be in charge of high risk horses, imo.
 
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I must admit that Sugar and Spice talks common sense which is always good news. I agree with mule's thoughts on euthanasia as this should be dependent on the individual equine, their quality of life and the resources of the owner. We owned a Shetland from 2 yrs old until he died at 34yrs. He developed laminitis when he was older but it was managed with bute and diet in those days. He only had two attacks and had a very happy, busy life until he developed kidney problems and was pts. He is still much missed.
I will try the grazing muzzle but must admit that I worry that she will get very frustrated and miserable wearing one. What experiences have others had with these and has anyone fed magnesium oxide as an additive for laminitis?
 
Donkeyslave said:
I must admit that Sugar and Spice talks common sense which is always good news. I agree with mule's thoughts on euthanasia as this should be dependent on the individual equine, their quality of life and the resources of the owner. We owned a Shetland from 2 yrs old until he died at 34yrs. He developed laminitis when he was older but it was managed with bute and diet in those days. He only had two attacks and had a very happy, busy life until he developed kidney problems and was pts. He is still much missed.
I will try the grazing muzzle but must admit that I worry that she will get very frustrated and miserable wearing one. What experiences have others had with these and has anyone fed magnesium oxide as an additive for laminitis?
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I tried a muzzle for a mare who didn't have laminitis, she was just a bit fat. She removed it in about 5 minutes. But she was a proper escape artist so I wouldn't go by that.

I got advice from a vet recently about keeping grass low. I don't know if this applies to your situation but, if you have another horse that isn't overweight you can get them to graze down a paddock so it's suitable for the laminitic prone animal to graze.
 
I don't have any horses only another donkey gelding. They are inseparable ,must be able to touch, otherwise they get very stressed. This also worries me as they are always grooming each other and "waffling" each others faces with their very soft lips. I'm worried about their mental well being if they can't feel each other like this. I guess its all trial and error for the individual.
 
Donkeyslave said:
What experiences have others had with these and has anyone fed magnesium oxide as an additive for laminitis?
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My mare has EMS and I feed mag ox and cinnamon at a high dose - about double and a half what is recommended on the Pro Earth site. Within 2-3 weeks the fat pads above her eyes (that I could not get rid of) had disappeared. She's still on it now and hasn't gone footy on grass this year which is a surprise! She actually dropped a lot of weight last winter (BCS 2/5) and I ended up taking her off the mag until she'd put a bit of weight back on as I wasn't sure if it was something to do with that.
 
I never had a problem in the past with ponies getting fat in summer then loosing the weight in the winter. I think its leaving them fat all year round which causes the problems. people over rug and over feed in the winter often these days.
 
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