The nagging feeling that riding horses is just odd

People are having Alpacas as pets now, is that a phenomenon elsewhere or just near me? You need land and specialised care and an exotics vet for an Alpaca and you can't ride or drive them, and they're expensive to buy on top. Getting money for the wool is a faff as well, which is the only way I can see them "earning keep". From the several I've met they aren't even nice 😂 If people can want an Alpaca to try and love why wouldn't they want a pony?
 
JFTDWS said:
I like alpaca, but I'd rather have a pint of alpacalypse. Much cheaper, less work and a lot easier to enjoy!
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👀👀 You could enjoy a cold pint of Alpacalypse with a showing of Alpacalypse even. You could pay someone somewhere to bring an Alpaca to watch it with you, probably.

Sorry to be picking on Alpacas, I paid £30 to go walk one on the beach for a friends birthday once and the resentment at paying to exercise a creature that isn't even nice to be around has been burning a hole in me since.
 
I personally think that a lot of competition can fall into moral grey areas, which is why I personally have little interest in it, except for maybe a fun day out if me and the horse fancy it. I also worry a lot about RS horses as I’ve seen some some things at certain places which I think should’ve been unacceptable, luckily it’s not the majority (I hope).

I have Saus, who has been fully retired for a while and we brought her with a view to retire her as she had arthritis. For about 6 months she was semi retired and we’d enjoy a lil plod, with me hopping of when she decided she was done, she could probably still do it, but I’ve found her some ground-based interests to give her that extra bit of enjoyment and fun so I have less joint guilt 🙈. She enjoys pointless bombproofing exercises, hock-friendly tricks and exercises, and in-hand walks so I do a bit of that with her just to give her some extra interest in her retired life. A bit like a crafting club really 😂.

With my old horse, he was naturally an anxious horse out ridden so I found alternatives for him. I’d done lots of work to try and improve him under saddle but he never really settled as a hacking horse. Towards the end of his life I’d accepted that he was best suited to be a groundwork trick horse type because he loved learning new things, but I sadly lost him before I could fully implement his new work regime of mostly groundwork and bareback.

I think that the amount and type of work a horse wants to do is very much dependent on the horse. I do think that to some extent, horses will test your position in the ‘herd hierarchy’ and that genuinely testy behaviour with new people could be a manifestation of that. However, that is not a full time excuse to overextend control over horses when they are unhappy for genuine reasons, which can hopefully be seen by the main rider/owner. It is important, as well, to let horses have a meet and greet with a new rider before getting on. It is important not to let horses use dangerous behaviour to let the rider/owner know something is wrong, as, in an ideal world, rider/owners would be able to see and understand changes to the horses behaviour better than I think a lot of people presently do (myself probably included). We shouldn’t be in a position where we are pushing horses to be dangerous when they’re in pain.

I think that the mindset of ‘you need to show who’s in charge’ is quite harmful because after initial spats (sometimes not even that) in a herd to determine the position of a new member, relations usually become relatively peaceful and calm; with open interaction between herd members to define boundaries clearly. As a result, human interactions with horses should reflect this to ensure understanding, and a level of control and permission for the horse.

Overall, I think riding is fine as long as it’s done with the permission of the horse and careful consideration of the most ideal type of work/workload for the horse.

Bit of an essay really! Sorry, I’m slightly scared to be honest because I’m a bit of a new member 🫣.
 
Titchy Pony said:
I sometimes wonder if it simply means that it's the horse equivalent of a border collie or a malinois: will run rings around the average owner and land them in hospital more likely than not.

I believe that lots of horses these days are bred in the hope of obtaining the next Milton or Valegro, with stallions chosen on performance rather than suitability to the amateur home if the foal should fall short of professional athletic expectations. Some of the stallions are barely sane (whether that's down to management or genetics is up for debate, but I highly suspect a bit off both) but that's ignored if they're good enough, so the get to produce a hoard of barely sane offspring that "must go to a serious competition home only" as they are the only kind of home that will overlook the crazy. I think overall breeding should pay more attention to temperament and market, as there are only so many pro horse homes available.
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Overall I wish that long term soundness was the priority, at least as important as temperament. Both are needed for horses to live a good life with humans.

smolmaus said:
People are having Alpacas as pets now, is that a phenomenon elsewhere or just near me? You need land and specialised care and an exotics vet for an Alpaca and you can't ride or drive them, and they're expensive to buy on top. Getting money for the wool is a faff as well, which is the only way I can see them "earning keep". From the several I've met they aren't even nice 😂 If people can want an Alpaca to try and love why wouldn't they want a pony?
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20 odd years ago the alpacas next to the livery yard, in fact next to the arena (which was fun), didn't earn them a penny, they gave the fleece away after paying for shearing.

As a saddle fitter this is something that is always in the back of my brain. Horses are SO ill adapted for us to ride them it's not funny. The fact that some don't break down in significant ways is the more surprising. I currently am very slightly harsh with owners (with, I hope, a kind bedside manner) and try to help everyone do better, and to help load the rider in the best way possible so that they sit well and in the right place, making the horse better able to make the right improvements to carry such a load with minimal detriment.

A rehab type trainer I respect hugely has just stopped taking on new clients, so disillusioned is she with the way people keep their horses and ignore their fundamental needs.
 
sbloom said:
Overall I wish that long term soundness was the priority, at least as important as temperament. Both are needed for horses to live a good life with humans.
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I do of course agree with this! I just didn't mention it in the context I was answering to. This would however preferably breeding from older individuals that can prove they can do a job without breaking down. We can and do select on conformation as well, but that is no guarantee that there isn't something that will lead to lameness later on or would if the horse was worked.

I have put my money where my mouth is and bred my 15yo mare to a 16yo stallion pony that is still competing to 1m30 and both parents have good temperaments. Remind me in a decade or two and I'll let you know if it worked...
Someone did point out to me that the stallion must be well managed to still compete at that level at his age, and I'm sure he is. But if a horse is really predisposed to "breaking", no amount of management can fix them.
 
Wow, this grew legs! It’s been interesting to read everyone’s opinions and good to know that I’m not alone. I don’t want riding banned, like I said I still enjoy it myself when I’m doing it! I do also think it’s good for some of them mentally to get out and about. I certainly get the impression that Rocky enjoys hacking:


But a lot of stuff does leave me feeling odd about it all still too. I think the endless barrage of videos surfacing of pros doing all sorts of nasty shit has just compounded it. And then those at the other end who are 5 stone overweight, can’t ride for toffee and make their horses do 3 classes at their local UA. I honestly just think horses are heroes.
 
humblepie said:
I don't think it is particularly odd. It is how some people will do it or what they do which is odd.
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I think it's the kind of odd that comes to mind when you keep reading a word over and over and it doesn't make sense any more...that the logic of language disappears and is no longer normal. We've got used to horseriding being normal but, especially if you have a vegan type mindset about benefitting from/exploiting, depending on degree, interactions with animals, and agree with the abolition of slavery for humans...it doesn't really make sense. I'm absolutely not judgemental about people riding, and want to help them do so ethically and in a very considered way, but do strongly believe that if we don't sort "our house" out then these sorts of discussions will become more common.

I think employment has become similar, lower relative wages, bigger profits and we forget that there are other stakeholders not just shareholders - employees, customers, the planet. I saw a post on FB asking for recommendations for a trainer to "push me up the levels" in dressage and you realise that the sport stopped being horse centric a LONG time ago, we don't see it as continuing development of the horse, we see the prizes, and at upper levels, the money.
 
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smolmaus said:
People are having Alpacas as pets now, is that a phenomenon elsewhere or just near me? You need land and specialised care and an exotics vet for an Alpaca and you can't ride or drive them, and they're expensive to buy on top. Getting money for the wool is a faff as well, which is the only way I can see them "earning keep". From the several I've met they aren't even nice 😂 If people can want an Alpaca to try and love why wouldn't they want a pony?
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I think they're revolting things, I'd rather have pet sheep or goats but one of the reasons for having them is it classes a place as agricultural for tax dodging purposes. A big livery yard we supply hay to got them for this reason.
 
sbloom said:
Horses are SO ill adapted for us to ride them it's not funny. The fact that some don't break down in significant ways is the more surprising.
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This is the bit that is constantly playing on my mind
sbloom said:
load the rider in the best way possible so that they sit well and in the right place, making the horse better able to make the right improvements to carry such a load with minimal detriment.
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I also know I am not the best to be on board with my back issues making me wonky and a bit unbalanced, and I'd hate to cause them pain unnecessarily
 
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I’m not surprised, alpaca spit can burn a hole through your boots, it’s some sort of regurgitated stomach acid, and the damn things often carry TB.
Because they’re high-altitude bred, alpaca and llamas can can be really ill with it before starting to show all the wheezy horrible symptoms when living here. They aren’t mandatorily tested (as yet), either.
Our local authority issued warning to education staff taking pupils on farm trips etc they should not go if any alpaca also on site, despite them looking so fetching.
smolmaus said:
👀👀 You could enjoy a cold pint of Alpacalypse with a showing of Alpacalypse even. You could pay someone somewhere to bring an Alpaca to watch it with you, probably.

Sorry to be picking on Alpacas, I paid £30 to go walk one on the beach for a friends birthday once and the resentment at paying to exercise a creature that isn't even nice to be around has been burning a
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marmalade76 said:
I think they're revolting things, I'd rather have pet sheep or goats but one of the reasons for having them is it classes a place as agricultural for tax dodging purposes. A big livery yard we supply hay to got them for this reason.
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?? For ‘agricultural’ you’d be better keeping the sheep.
 
Titchy Pony said:
I sometimes wonder if it simply means that it's the horse equivalent of a border collie or a malinois: will run rings around the average owner and land them in hospital more likely than not.

I believe that lots of horses these days are bred in the hope of obtaining the next Milton or Valegro, with stallions chosen on performance rather than suitability to the amateur home if the foal should fall short of professional athletic expectations. Some of the stallions are barely sane (whether that's down to management or genetics is up for debate, but I highly suspect a bit off both) but that's ignored if they're good enough, so the get to produce a hoard of barely sane offspring that "must go to a serious competition home only" as they are the only kind of home that will overlook the crazy. I think overall breeding should pay more attention to temperament and market, as there are only so many pro horse homes available.
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We buy or breed horses with 160 SJ lines and turn them into family ponies, who get lots of turnout, equine company and work that mostly consists of hacking on the buckle - so far its worked well and they appear pretty happy with life. I have zero interest in doing something with horses that they don't enjoy.
 
Nancykitt said:
This.
I was at an SJ/eventing demo once and one of the riders said 'If we treat our horses like kings and queens, it's not unreasonable to ask them to do a bit of work for us.'

It sounds like a reasonable thing to say but I'd say there are a few conditions. One is that they have to be treated like 'kings and queens' while they're doing that work, whatever it is.
I don't see it as acceptable to provide good quality care and then expect the horse to be uncomfortable/in pain when they're actually doing the work.
We all know about the abuse at top level, but I've seen some awful treatment of horses on the local show circuit. This goes from one family who got a saddle that clearly did not fit the pony and was causing discomfort but ('it's a lovely looking saddle and the judge will like it') to those who are openly hitting stressed horses. Having a nice stable and grazing doesn't make up for that sort of treatment.

I always think that if my pony was living in the wild he'd have to do a heck of a lot of walking. So I don't feel bad about taking him for a hack around the block and he gets a short graze on a patch of grass half way round (we say we're 'taking them out for a meal'). I do everything I can to make him as comfortable as possible, eg, tack must fit properly. I believe that horses do need exercise if they're sound and physically well; I could lead him out, but he doesn't seem to object to me riding him.

I never got into competing but we did hunt (clean boot) quite a lot before we moved to Scotland. Maybe the horses were stressed and I misinterpreted this for excitement, but once they were prepared for travelling they would literally load themselves onto the little wagon. Some of the best days of my life - literally - were out with the bloodhounds. When it's going well, there's nothing to compare to riding; even though I'm not super-confident as a rider, the desire to ride has always outweighed everything else.

Once the horses retire, they'll be kept in comfort for the rest of their lives. But I don't think I'd buy a young pet horse just for the pleasure of looking after it.

Finally, I always wondered what people meant when they said, in sales ads, 'Must go to a serious competition home only.' I suppose they believed that the horse loved competing. But I wondered if the same horse would have been equally fine with going for long hacks?
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Oh no, so completely agree with you. I’d much rather see people do the decent thing and pts rather than pass them on if they cannot afford/do not wish to keep them retired. I cannot afford another horse for myself at the moment (I do have two I can ride though) but nothing I can jump/hunt which is what I enjoy most but I’ve had my boy almost 20 years and he is still in light work, and he has given me everything so I’m willing to sacrifice what I want to do how we long necessary to give him the best rest of life he deserves. Obviously I’ll make any de is pons which needing when his QOL is affected but whilst he is happy, I’m happy. I could hire a hint horse or look for something to jump if I really wanted to but his happiness is at the forefront of everything I do.
 
smolmaus said:
I think it means they want money, and maybe that the horse's brain is too fried to cope with anything other than being held together by a strong leg and a strong hand. I'm a cynic.

I do know people who have horses just for their own sake. But they are people I know through the rescue who have acreage, so probably not representative. Good few of them could be ridden, they're sound and sane, but they just get to live in their stable, happy herd and be loved for who they are.
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We keep our hill pony herd because we can, because we love them being part of the environment and because they are culturally important to us. We don't have stallions or colts - in fact the herd is aging and we need new mares really. We take care of any that are sick and we love the privelige of knowing this band really well. If I was to have a non-ridden horse, that is the setting I would want for it (and for me).
 
Clodagh said:
Animals all earn their keep one way or another, or we wouldn’t buy them. Pleasure in their company/being good for the soul can be a perfect justification. But it’s not for everyone.

I don’t mean this to be nasty… but mainly I’m making the sweeping assumption that the anti riding people in here are maybe older and have many years of happy hacking/schooling/ competing behind them. Many get softer and more empathetic as they mature, I have, although i have no issue with animals having jobs.
I think now to want to maybe put younger people who haven’t had all the fun put in a position where they feel bad for doing so is maybe a bit rude? (Maybe not rude but I can’t think of a better word).
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This is my thinking
 
I don't think it is particularly odd, no. Not in the grand scheme of all the other weird shizzle humans do and have normalised.

I find all of the language around riding being 'work' for a horse a bit odd (whether describing 'work' in a negative or positive way). The idea of work is a very human notion and I don't believe horses really think in that way - they are not transactional creatures in the way that we are. Horses want food, water, companionship, the freedom to move, mental stimulation, to be free from pain etc. But i don't think they either want what a human might categorise as 'work' nor resent it.

I think riding can be part of a happy life for a horse (though not all horses of course), but unfortunately humans frequently do a pi55 poor job of giving the horses in their care a good life, and frequently that is through bad riding, riding a compromised horse, or riding a horse who actively dislikes it. Is the idea of equestrian sport to blame for some of those failures? Almost certainly.
 
Very well said, DabDab. We can moan about social licensing and the public all we like, but it’ll be them who decide the future of elite horse sport if we don’t do enough to get it out of a negative spotlight. Or maybe times are just changing, and the appetite for elite equestrian sport is becoming more and more niche regardless of anything we do.

The nuances we discuss on this forum are entirely valid and important, but ultimately wouldn’t make a dime of difference if a scandal where to happen at the Olympics, for example. IMO.
 
equinerebel said:
Very well said, DabDab. We can moan about social licensing and the public all we like, but it’ll be them who decide the future of elite horse sport if we don’t do enough to get it out of a negative spotlight.
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But what does it mean to remove the negative spotlight? This is a problem with the concept of SLO as I see it. There's drawing a veil over or making excuses for abusive/unethical or even just sub-optimal practices, or persuading every person involved in horse sport never to indulge in them. Which do we think the sports are actually going for, because I can't see the latter being possible? Governing bodies seem unwilling to adopt a zero-tolerance approach so far, or even to take a robust view on what constitutes a good life for a horse.
 
Here’s another thing I saw in a few horse adverts years ago:

‘Bombproof if worked.’

Always found this interesting- apart from the obvious implication that the horse wouldn’t be ‘bombproof’ if it wasn’t worked…

(As an aside, I’ve always been intrigued by the use of ‘bombproof’ to describe horses as it is totally contrary to everything a ‘wild’ horse would be!)
 
smolmaus said:
👀👀 You could enjoy a cold pint of Alpacalypse with a showing of Alpacalypse even. You could pay someone somewhere to bring an Alpaca to watch it with you, probably.

Sorry to be picking on Alpacas, I paid £30 to go walk one on the beach for a friends birthday once and the resentment at paying to exercise a creature that isn't even nice to be around has been burning a hole in me since.
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My friend show Highland Cattle and has people pay quite a lot of money for a ‘Wash a Cow’ experience. It’s quite brilliant in so many way and really informative if country life isn’t your natural environment (and she makes it great fun).
Exasperated said:
?? For ‘agricultural’ you’d be better keeping the sheep.
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Back off being mean to sheep, mine are quite delightful and probably slightly more intelligent than a lot of humans I come across 🤔
 
Burnttoast said:
But what does it mean to remove the negative spotlight? This is a problem with the concept of SLO as I see it. There's drawing a veil over or making excuses for abusive/unethical or even just sub-optimal practices, or persuading every person involved in horse sport never to indulge in them. Which do we think the sports are actually going for, because I can't see the latter being possible? Governing bodies seem unwilling to adopt a zero-tolerance approach so far, or even to take a robust view on what constitutes a good life for a horse.
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I honestly don’t know
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
Random debate.

I like riding, it’s one of the reasons I spend so much money owning a horse. I also like the husbandry aspect of horses as well.

If I could use my horse for his original purpose (transportation) then I would however my car is more convenient and less time spent commuting 🤣

Some days I can’t be bothered riding, so I’m sure there are days when my horse can’t be bothered either 🤭

We have our horses for reasons, what those reasons are doesn’t need justified to anyone else.
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I regularly fantasise about riding around the area I live in and giving up the car. A hundred years ago there were stables at the bottom of the street and everyone kept their horses there. With all the net zero stuff why don’t they just reintroduce horses as a mode of transport and phase out cars? I’d be fully on board with that! 🤣🥰
 
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