The "not canter"?

[Cob Life]

https://www.horselistening.com/2012...ter-can-drastically-improve-your-transitions/

What does everyone think of this?

 

[Roxylola]

I think for the right horse it's a useful tool - takes away the tension from horse and rider

 

[Cob Life]

I think for the right horse it's a useful tool - takes away the tension from horse and rider

I'm considering trying it with the cob. He used to be a very tense ride, he's now a lot more relaxed but. Still gets tense and rushed in the canter transition

 

[Roxylola]

Your timing has to be good, in so far as you put the aid there then change your mind about it, ideally before either of you has time to get tense about it.

 

[cold_feet]

Isn’t this why it’s easier to establish canter out hacking? So it just ‘happens’ rather than being forced.

 

[Cob Life]

Isn’t this why it’s easier to establish canter out hacking? So it just ‘happens’ rather than being forced.

Likely but I can't hack him anywhere but roads, I'd love to be able to trailer to the gallops one day

 

[be positive]

Isn’t this why it’s easier to establish canter out hacking? So it just ‘happens’ rather than being forced.

Or use a pole or small fence to get them popping into canter, the description of how the horses react in the link should not happen if the rider or trainer is working properly with the horse in the first place, if I have something come here that has issues going into canter then the first thing to work out is why and how to avoid it becoming even more of a problem, the not canter is an interesting approach but I think would take far more skill that trotting quietly into a pole and letting it pick up canter with no pressure, once it gets confident then the aids can be refined, pretty much the same as you would out hacking.

 

[JFTDWS]

If I had the issues they describe - the level of tension and unhappiness about the idea of canter, I'd be more concerned that the horse wasn't sound or capable of what I'm asking...

 

[LiquidMetal]

I’m a big believer in Andrew McLean’s work on learning theory and personally, this is not something I would do. When you apply an aid and horse doesn’t respond, you are teaching them to ignore that aid. If you follow this method to get your horse to relax, the day will come when you’ll swing leg back to get canter and nothing will happen because your horse will no longer associate that cue with cantering. Then you’ll have to increase aids to chase horse into canter.

I would focus on making sure horse is truly in front of leg in walk and trot and that transitions are easy. I helped my OTTB learn canter cue under saddle by teaching him on a lunge line that kiss noise meant canter. We worked on that until established. Under saddle, I would swing my leg back first then kiss. Horse learns to associate leg swing with canter and you can slowly remove kiss cue.

My other suggestion would be to really think about what your hands and body are doing during transition. A lot of people get tense asking for canter and inadvertently pull back. Horse gets frustrated because it’s being told to do 2 things at once and then tension occurs. Or people get too worried their nose will stick out during transition so they keep too much contact. Try putting hands forward during transition and just going for it.

 

[Cob Life]

When you apply an aid and horse doesn’t respond, you are teaching them to ignore that aid. If you follow this method to get your horse to relax, the day will come when you’ll swing leg back to get canter and nothing will happen because your horse will no longer associate that cue with cantering. Then you’ll have to increase aids to chase horse into canter.

This was my biggest concern with it, the theory of relaxing them sounds good but actually surely you're just training them to ignore the aid?

 

[daffy44]

If I had the issues they describe - the level of tension and unhappiness about the idea of canter, I'd be more concerned that the horse wasn't sound or capable of what I'm asking...

I totally agree with JFTDWS, the level of stress described is really high, and not normal for a healthy, happy horse, I'd rather try to address whatever underlying issues are causing that level of tension. But even without the tension issue I really cant see the point in training a horse to ignore the aid, so I'm afraid I cant agree with the article at all.

 

[mini_b]

If I had the issues they describe - the level of tension and unhappiness about the idea of canter, I'd be more concerned that the horse wasn't sound or capable of what I'm asking...

repeatedly stating “tail swishing” etc don’t sound good does it...

 

[mini_b]

I can’t see the point of a horse potentially understanding aid but having tension through unbalance/tension from rider in 3rd gait, to be then told that aid request means just continue/speed up/tuck under/collect/as you were.
Aid is a specific request and this would cause ME confusion.
If horse is green or unsure allow canter organically (tiny jumps/hacking and canter uphill)


Just me 50p going in there....

 

[SOS]

Also not won over by this advice. I thought they would be suggesting to keep pushing the trot on and on until the horse breaks into canter hence not asking for canter. Which I’m not convinced works past short term anyway.

If a horse is that resistant/tense through the transition it’s probably in pain, I don’t believe they often play up or resist for the fun of it. They want to please else they wouldn’t of lasted decades as our riding companion.

If it is truly all rider tension and error then perhaps some lunge lessons, no stirrups or even mechanical horse lessons would be much more beneficial. FYI I had a green horse when much younger which if you were unbalanced in the transition to canter would rush forward (unbalanced as in, my also green state meant I could bounce in the saddle a little). My instructor at the time made me do lots of no stirrup work but also got us riding walk-canter so I was more balanced going into the canter.

 

[scats]

I haven to say, reading that article, I was thinking to myself that I wouldn’t consider that reaction to asking for a canter transition particularly normal and I would be looking into why the horse was reacting with such tension.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had several horses who have come to me struggling with canter transitions (Millie, Diva... two examples in recent years off the top of my head) but even so, they were just trot faster, unbalanced before falling into canter. There was no obvious tension or particular resistance, just a basic lack of understanding and balance.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I doubt it would work described like that. Because it sounds like you are asking for canter then changing your mind which I think will confuse both horses and riders. Intention, clarity and focus are important I think. But a simpler way to describe the same sort of approach is to focus on the quality of the transition not just whether or not it happens. So if you focus on establishing a good, rhythm in trot then ask for canter and get tension or rushing, then stop asking for canter and instead rebalance the trot and ask again. So you are basically saying 'no, not that' to tension or rushing. I would never run a horse into canter as you are just teaching them how NOT to make the transition. So in effect the horse might not canter a few times as I rebalance and ask again but that's not my goal. That's just what is happening along the way. As many horses are confused about aids for canter anyway adding more potential confusion into the mix seems a bit daft to me.

 

[Cob Life]

I doubt it would work described like that. Because it sounds like you are asking for canter then changing your mind which I think will confuse both horses and riders. Intention, clarity and focus are important I think. But a simpler way to describe the same sort of approach is to focus on the quality of the transition not just whether or not it happens. So if you focus on establishing a good, rhythm in trot then ask for canter and get tension or rushing, then stop asking for canter and instead rebalance the trot and ask again. So you are basically saying 'no, not that' to tension or rushing. I would never run a horse into canter as you are just teaching them how NOT to make the transition. So in effect the horse might not canter a few times as I rebalance and ask again but that's not my goal. That's just what is happening along the way. As many horses are confused about aids for canter anyway adding more potential confusion into the mix seems a bit daft to me.

This is what I originally thought it was saying.

Mine has never been taught to canter correctly and has been taught that you run into canter then just carry on running so I have to rebalance him otherwise surely I'm reinforcing the running?

 

[milliepops]

Ok so I have used this idea with a couple of horses but I would say it's only useful in certain very limited circumstances and only for a short time.

Most recently was reschooling a horse that was so anxious about canter transitions that she would panic and lose her balance as soon as you even thought about cantering. She was generally a fairly normal horse but had been ragged about a bit so was pretty neurotic about this one thing.

Teaching her to let me move my leg or prepare the transition without actually pressing the "go" button really helped her to figure out that there was nothing to fret about and then when I finally did ask for canter there were no explosions or panic stations, it was just a change in gait.

I'd echo the others though if the horse is not on the aids then you can end up teaching them to just tune you out (in a way that's a bit what I needed this little mare to do).

With a horse that runs into canter I think again you have to consider what the problem is and what is the correct approach.
Pulling them up if they run is not necessarily the right thing for a really green horse because in a similar way you end up telling the horse not to canter, when it was trying to go. I tend to find that sharpening up all the transitions helps with that, and then being very clear that when you say canter you mean canter, and the horse really needs to go.
I think pulling up and "representing" the canter trans can work with a more established horse that has just missed the aid though.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I think the article is basically advising doing what many people do anyway but have put a new spin on it which could lead to confusion for horses and riders. It says you are asking for 'not canter' so don't actually want the horse to canter. Whereas you do - but you want it smooth and balanced not rushed and tense. So if its not right you stop and start again. So yes in practice it may look similar. But in practice I can also imagine it looking and feeling confused! Go, NO!

That said, another livery had a dressage lesson with a local trainer who was getting her to run the horse into canter saying once you've asked for canter you have to 'make it happen' to teach the horse obedience. I don't agree with that so if that's a common approach this article is trying to get away from that.

 

[milliepops]

That said, another livery had a dressage lesson with a local trainer who was getting her to run the horse into canter saying once you've asked for canter you have to 'make it happen' to teach the horse obedience. I don't agree with that so if that's a common approach this article is trying to get away from that.

I think this really depends on why it hasnt happened tbh.

 

[Ambers Echo]

MP that's interesting- so you would run on into canter? As with all these things I guess the answer as to what to do with a horse is 'it depends'! The livery who was running into canter ended the lesson stressed with a stressed horse. I suggested she use my trainer who got her to quietly ask, but correct speeding up and asked again. 4-5 attempts later she popped sweetly into canter and has been ok with transitions since then. That influenced me a lot but I'm always open to other ideas!

 

[be positive]

I think this really depends on why it hasnt happened tbh.

It is knowing why something has or hasn't happened that is the key to how you deal with it, no two horses and riders are the same so it does depend on the individual situation.

 

[Ambers Echo]

X posted. I dont know why the horse ran into canter. She was fairly established with a nervous rider so perhaps mixed messages from the rider and a general air of stress/ tension? Then habit as she always cantered that way. It was very easily fixed though.

 

[be positive]

X posted. I dont know why the horse ran into canter. She was fairly established with a nervous rider so perhaps mixed messages from the rider and a general air of stress/ tension? Then habit as she always cantered that way. It was very easily fixed though.

To add to my comment, a good trainer, whether on the ground teaching or riding, will try something and if it isn't working, makes matters worse or more incorrectly established should be able to move on and try a different approach, it is why I often tend to use a pole/ jump as it takes away some of the influence the rider is having and can reduce the anticipation that causes the stress.

If the horse does not answer the question either make sure the question was clear or ask a different way, KISS.

 

[milliepops]

MP that's interesting- so you would run on into canter?

For some horses it can be a useful approach.
Darcy, for instance, 6 months ago he had no concept of what a canter transition was in the school, he didn't have the strength, balance or understanding to let me sit up and ride a neat transition. With a horse that green (or with a level of misunderstanding, i.e. not a horse that has had a perfect education) I would say that sometimes you just have to get into canter *somehow* a few times for them to twig that is what you meant. So running and eventually cantering is not wrong - the aim of that transaction between us was to go from trot to canter and the horse hasn't a clue that it can get to canter without first running, because he doesn't understand the question nor the aids.

Again there's a caveat as usual that the rider has to work out if the horse has got beyond the point where it can get into canter from the running trot - if it's got unbalanced or too unruly then sometimes you have to stop asking but that truly is the scenario where you can end up teaching the horse the wrong thing, because you didn't achieve the number 1 objective of going from trot to canter.

clearly the intention is to not let the running take place over more than a few strides, but if the intention is to trot > canter then being committed to teaching the horse how to do that means not changing your mind half way through because it's gone a bit untidy.

It is knowing why something has or hasn't happened that is the key to how you deal with it, no two horses and riders are the same so it does depend on the individual situation.

100% this
it's another example of why having fixed idea of what a valid training "system" is and what isn't, is not really that helpful. you need to assess each thing against each horse, rider and situation to decide whether something is useful or not I think.

X posted. I dont know why the horse ran into canter. She was fairly established with a nervous rider so perhaps mixed messages from the rider and a general air of stress/ tension? Then habit as she always cantered that way. It was very easily fixed though.

So again I can see a rationale for running to canter here, though again you have to look at each as an individual.
If the horse knows the aid but the rider is nervous, anxious, whatever, and giving mixed signals, then running to canter can be a useful thing for the *rider* because they are basically being asked to challenge their anxieties and commit to cantering any old how, rather than pulling up because they are afraid to make the transition to the new gait.

Obv it may not have been appropriate to keep going if it made the horse stressed but it's again not something to rule out IMO?

 

[Cortez]

In my experience 99% of the problems with canter transitions are down to the rider. Horses are born knowing how to canter, it's up to us to train them properly, and create sufficient balance under the rider to make it easy for them to understand and comply with the aid.

Oh, and the aid for the canter is not swinging the leg back: it is the inside leg that gives the aid (actually the inside seatbone), the outside leg is merely there to control the quarters, if needed.

 

[milliepops]

I thought of another time I've used a similar approach of putting the aid on but not going, and that was with another horse that would invert during a canter transition immediately on applying the aid, and with her there was no issue with her reactiveness to the leg, so it was a safe way to teach her without muddling the understanding of the "go" bit of the transition.
she had to learn to not be offended by it. It's again a temporary stop-gap thing, eventually mine have all learned to canter from a seat aid but you still need to use your leg to teach changes so you can't skirt around something like the horse being explosive when you use your leg.

 

[Cob Life]

Ok so I have used this idea with a couple of horses but I would say it's only useful in certain very limited circumstances and only for a short time.

Most recently was reschooling a horse that was so anxious about canter transitions that she would panic and lose her balance as soon as you even thought about cantering. She was generally a fairly normal horse but had been ragged about a bit so was pretty neurotic about this one thing.

Teaching her to let me move my leg or prepare the transition without actually pressing the "go" button really helped her to figure out that there was nothing to fret about and then when I finally did ask for canter there were no explosions or panic stations, it was just a change in gait.

I'd echo the others though if the horse is not on the aids then you can end up teaching them to just tune you out (in a way that's a bit what I needed this little mare to do).

With a horse that runs into canter I think again you have to consider what the problem is and what is the correct approach.
Pulling them up if they run is not necessarily the right thing for a really green horse because in a similar way you end up telling the horse not to canter, when it was trying to go. I tend to find that sharpening up all the transitions helps with that, and then being very clear that when you say canter you mean canter, and the horse really needs to go.
I think pulling up and "representing" the canter trans can work with a more established horse that has just missed the aid though.

Mp can I message you about this horse?
It sounds very similar to what I'm dealing with with this cob!

 

[daffy44]

I think this really depends on why it hasnt happened tbh.

This is key. I used to be a backing rider, and I would always ask a young horse to canter by just letting them speed up and run and then just fall into canter, at that stage they dont have to education to do it better. I would use whatever verbal aid that the horse was used to on the lunge, combine this with my physical aid and let the horse just run into the canter, also when they are weak a little bit of momentum helps the canter happen. As the horse gets physically stronger and mentally more educated then you can start to refine the aid, and then you can ask from a balanced trot and eliminate the running, but during this transition stage you can still get some messy transitions, but that doesnt matter, you have to stay commited to what you asked, so if you asked for canter, thats what you are going to get, even if it includes some running.

As Cortez said, horses know how to canter perfectly well, but when they are learning how to do it and balance themselves under the weight of a rider as well, its fine to go through the messy, running stage to help them along. Horses learn quickly and this phase doesnt last long, but its an easy way to help the horse get where you want. Obviously I would be less impressed if my advanced horses started running into canter, but if my four yr old does it every now and then I dont worry.

 

[Cortez]

Ummm, sorry can't agree with you there - I would never, ever ask a horse to run into canter, even on the very first try. that would pretty much guarantee an unbalanced horse. I'd never ask until the horse is ready; if the horse offers canter I'll take it, but I immediately stop the canter if it becomes unbalanced. I also usually ask from the walk.